Roast WC Need to do Something About Their Recruiting.

[Monocle]

Hawthorn in that time have taken the following premiership players :

Hill @33
Shields @ 34
Stratton @ 46
Puopolo @ 66
Duryea @69
Bruest @ 77

Heck even Spangher got a medal being plucked from oblivion as a recycled rookie .

 

[Galileo9]

Hawthorn in that time have taken the following premiership players :

Hill @33
Shields @ 34
Stratton @ 46
Puopolo @ 66
Duryea @69
Bruest @ 77

Heck even Spangher got a medal being plucked from oblivion as a recycled rookie .

Yeees. And the rest? Role players are easier to get with later picks than star players. They perform on the back of what the star players do. Fact that Spangher got a medal proves my point exactly.

Besides from your list, how many were from 2010? Brad hill from 2011 maybe? That's it. So 2 picks before 20 and maybe 1or 2 players after that since 2010. They need to sack their recruiting staff, clearly

 

[Godfather32]

Given 50% of 100 gamers are from picks 20 or higher (or lower whichever way u want to look at it) and 70% of 200 gamers, then it's about average. Look where our draft picks have been mate.

Duggan and sheed are good players. Calm the f%*k down.

I'm calm, you're the one that seems to be irate.
Duggan has yet to show that he's going to be any good, Sheed is probably going to be a solid player. I'm not talking about them, look at those drafts and tell me what pick you think was a genuinely good selection. Duggan and Sheed were just average picks. For example take Sheed's draft, there are probably 15-20 players taken after him that look like they will be somewhere around his level and quite a few that look to be better than him. How was he a good pick if you can say that?
I ask you again, apart from Barrass who have we picked that makes you say, wow, our recruiters did a really good job picking him?

 

[Godfather32]

Yeees. And the rest? Role players are easier to get with later picks than star players. They perform on the back of what the star players do. Fact that Spangher got a medal proves my point exactly.

Besides from your list, how many were from 2010? Brad hill from 2011 maybe? That's it. So 2 picks before 20 and maybe 1or 2 players after that since 2010. They need to sack their recruiting staff, clearly

Hawthorns form this year is clearly a result of not recruiting & developing enough youth over the last few years. They've made a conscious decision to do so to win premierships and it worked. We've done an even worse job of bringing through young players and have f*** all to show for it apart from an embarrassing display in a Grand Final two years ago.

 

[Biggie]

Why did we turn a blind eye to Charlie Cameron I wonder?

 

[Monocle]

Yeees. And the rest? Role players are easier to get with later picks than star players. They perform on the back of what the star players do. Fact that Spangher got a medal proves my point exactly.

Besides from your list, how many were from 2010? Brad hill from 2011 maybe? That's it. So 2 picks before 20 and maybe 1or 2 players after that since 2010. They need to sack their recruiting staff, clearly

Wouldn't matter what new information I bring up we won't agree.

You think that O'Brien and his crew are doing a great job and we should just sit back and trust them to deliver.

Where as I don't think he has delivered any where near good enough, I don't have a lot of faith in him.

So we agree to disagree.

For a Club that for many years was touted as having some of the best recruiters in the business, we have had a spectacular fall from grace.

We are one of the best resourced ( if not the best ) Clubs in the land yet for all that coin our drafting is mid table.
Call me impatient , call me harsh but I expect better than what has been served up under the tenure of O'Brien.

Cransberg told the recruiting team two years ago that they were on notice as the board were not totally satisfied.
It will be interesting to see what Gibbs does next and more to the point to see what O'Brien does next ...can he deliver.

 

[langdon19]

Tom Swift was ******* great in his first few games, never developed from then. Duggan-esque..

Probably would have been a premiership player in Sydney tho tbh. Our youth development is shocking

Thought he was shit in his first few games, never really improved, i do remember one great handball.

 

[langdon19]

We turn our list over way too slowly and keep list cloggers on the list for way longer than we should and I am not just talking about now / today its been a problem for over a decade .

Didn't we offer Brown another contact, he went to the draft, no one wanted him???

 

[Biggie]

Didn't we offer Brown another contact, he went to the draft, no one wanted him???

Yep

I also believe we would've kept P Mginnity if he didn't retire...

 

[Keys]

Recruiting sliding doors -

2011:
Brad Hill was available when we took Newman at 23
McInness at 28 with hindsight hasn't worked out but that selection was sound enough as a KPF.
Lachie Neale was a draft bargain at 58 but we had no picks between 28 and 63 after we'd traded a 40's pick for Josh Hill
We used 63 to promote Hams that we might have used on Aaron hall or Rory Laird
Marley Williams would have been a better rookie pick than Callum Papertalk

2012:
Wellingham for pick 18 is a popular bone of contention but go through that draft and find a realistic draftee that would have offered more. I can't find one other than Grundy who we wouldn't have taken given our list needs
Pick 45 was colledge who was a bust. Dean Kent would have been a better choice from Perth
Rory Atkins would have been better than Adam Carter but it's hard to say how obvious that choice may have been
Hutchings at 60 was a reasonable pick at that point
Effectively trading Stevens for Cripps was good business
Sinclair in the RD was a decent pick
Rampe was available in the RD when we took Jamie Bennell but it's hard to imagine how a player in the NSW league would have been on our radar
Oh and we rolled the dice on Cale Morton for pick 88 that came up donuts

2013:
Trading down from pick 6 to 11 and getting 31 as well was a smart trading since we got the player (Sheed) we would have taken at 6 anyway. Unfortunately we didn't see the potential in Patrick Cripps who we could have taken - my memory is that Carlton were seen to be reaching at 13 though so he wasn't an obvious choice at the time in fairness
Had we traded 31 for Yeo instead of 28 we could have picked Lewis Taylor (likely) or Rory Lobb (unlikely) instead of Karpany
Barrass at 43 was genius
Main at 49 less so when we might have picked Byrne-Jones or Fantasia
Charlie Cameron in the RD was one that got away (we took Maginness instead)

2014:
Getting Xellis as a FA was sound
Duggan despite stagnating somewhat still looks a sound choice when looking at players taken after him - Lachie Weller may be in front of him, maybe not
Lamb over McGovern is probably the single biggest blunder we've made. Blakely would also have been better.
Nelson at 51 was a good pickup
Cavka was worth the chance at 67 despite his foot problems not working out
Glandular fever ****ed Alec Watermans career outside the clubs control
Imagine if we'd used the RD properly and taken Adam Saad or Castagna instead of Kane Lucas
Adamson as Brophy as cat B rookies was kinda exciting even if they've added up to nought

2015:

Jetta for Sinclair I don't have a problem with even if it looks like a nil all draw as a trade right now
First round pick for Redden is a sore point - could have taken Darcy tucker with that pick but some of the players taken haven't shown much. Yet.
Partington and Cole it's early days and there's not much standing out as better selections atm - maybe Ryan Clarke and Harley Balic
Ditto late picks Mutimer and Allen
Giles was cheap insurance
Had we cut deeper on the list (mcginnity) we might have been able to pick up Papley or Tippa (probably too left field to be on our radar perhaps)

2016:
Early days and to be fair the draft looks like we've done well with Venables, Rotham, Rioli and Waterman although the SPP v Salty Venables debate is very much a watch this space.
Watson looks like a genuine rough diamond
Gorter was an odd choice from a list balance POV and his spot may have been better utilised
McInnes was a list management error that he's still in our squad

Looking at each trade or draft choice in isolation there's not a lot of howlers there imo and most of the decisions are defensible when looking at what was known at the time

However, when you look at that list in totality a couple of things stand out. We've invested a lot in running type players but they're all a similar height and there's not a lot of genuinely powerful bodies or pace

Further the players are all solid citizens but lack genuine aggression, a distinct lack of mongrel. Reinforces the perception (reality) that we're a nice side that is missing the hard edge needed to take the next step

Finally, as others have said, we haven't been ruthless enough in turning over the list - finding gems in the rookie draft is difficult and it's easy to sit back with hindsight and point to players we might have picked. But we've been overly patient with some players and too often have opted for recycled players in the hope they'll show something they hadn't previously rather than trial a genuine rookie and churn through them to maximise the odds of unearthing someone

The stats on debutants and games played posted by godfather aren't very pretty - my view is the club has been too conservative overall at the draft generally but moreso in not rotating players through the senior side often enough to give them opportunities

That's all said with the understanding that most individual decisions have been sound so I also find it difficult to throw our list management/ recruiters under the bus as they've done ok with the picks available

 

[Monocle]

Didn't we offer Brown another contact, he went to the draft, no one wanted him???

Correct and it illustrates my point.

Well spotted Boris.

 

[Keys]

Hawthorn in that time have taken the following premiership players :

Hill @33
Shields @ 34
Stratton @ 46
Puopolo @ 66
Duryea @69
Bruest @ 77

Heck even Spangher got a medal being plucked from oblivion as a recycled rookie .

Hill was 2011
Shiels 2009
Stratton 2009
Puopolo 2010
Duryea 2009
Breust 2008

Hawthorns powerhouse was built prior to 2010 and they used FA to perfection to maintain their list through their premiership run

That the expansion sides took the majority of the talent through 2010-12 meant other sides weren't as able to build their talent pools through those draft years

Bulldogs bottomed out at a good time, had some handy father/sons and unquestionably nailed their drafts before timing their run perfectly in 2016 aided somewhat by a fortuitous pre finals break and a complacent Elimination final opponent

 

[Monocle]

Hill was 2011
Shiels 2009
Stratton 2009
Puopolo 2010
Duryea 2009
Breust 2008

Hawthorns powerhouse was built prior to 2010 and they used FA to perfection to maintain their list through their premiership run

That the expansion sides took the majority of the talent through 2010-12 meant other sides weren't as able to build their talent pools through those draft years

Bulldogs bottomed out at a good time, had some handy father/sons and unquestionably nailed their drafts before timing their run perfectly in 2016 aided somewhat by a fortuitous pre finals break and a complacent Elimination final opponent

Keys thats still some pretty good drafting by the Hawks and a lot of those player were rookie players that latter got elevated on to the senior list.
Either way I don't think we go anywhere near being that successful with latter picks.

Hawthorn also traded early picks to get the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that they needed : Lake , Bourgoyne, Gunston, McEvoy and Gibson thats smart trading.

Sydney and Hawks have been far more strategic in their approach be that trading or drafting and there is no denying that success breeds success and that translates into teams be coming destination Clubs.
Sydney and Hawthorn pick over other Clubs lists better than most and that has also helped their cause.

As you say if you nail your picks the success comes a lot quicker also clever strategic trading accelerates advances up the pecking order.

 

[avishka5]

what we really need is a few later picks turning into best 22 or at least fringe types and need higher picks to atleast amount to something. We clearly have issues with mids in that regards but we generally seem to have players that do stagnate a bit. It might also be a development issue Parto i was impressed with last year and mutimer is coming on. From games I've seen Parto is a ball magnet but low damage player. The fact that he is winning a ton of ball is a good thing but we need a good team teaching him other aspects of the game. Mutimer has slowly improved his decision making and vision by the things of it. If we can get duggan, venables, mutimer and Parto all fit and going this season, then our midfield won't look as depressing at is is looking atm. Thse guys all have potential to be a very good players but we need our development team to help them get there.

development and possibly the EP allignment might be holding back a few of our players IMO. Duggan looked way too good wafl in his first year and is now slowly finding form at that level. Under good development staff, he should practically be dominating at WAFL level or in our b22. That said, they finally seemed to have turned a half back flanker into a mid in Mutimer tho..

 

[Keys]

Keys thats still some pretty good drafting by the Hawks and a lot of those player were rookie players that latter got elevated on to the senior list.
Either way I don't think we go anywhere near being that successful with latter picks.

Hawthorn also traded early picks to get the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that they needed : Lake , Bourgoyne, Gunston, McEvoy and Gibson thats smart trading.

Sydney and Hawks have been far more strategic in their approach be that trading or drafting and there is no denying that success breeds success and that translates into teams be coming destination Clubs.
Sydney and Hawthorn pick over other Clubs lists better than most and that has also helped their cause.

As you say if you nail your picks the success comes a lot quicker also clever strategic trading accelerates advances up the pecking order.

No doubt hawthorn were the gold standard in list management- three flags from four attempts is testimony to that. But to remain competitive they've paid a hefty price and they're going to need some outstanding work to avoid a real tumble especially when you factor in they've traded out their 1st and 2nd round picks this year. Currently they enter the draft with the Giants 2nd round pick - so mid 30's. Added Mitchell and omeara in 2016 but had their first pick at 70 something last year. No young talent at all in recent years

Sydney are also doing well and the academy is helping cushion them from a hawthorn style fall. They've also kept their draft picks and used them well

As mentioned the Bulldogs have done very well

Our list management isn't at those levels but it isn't deplorable either

What is most frustrating is that we've done well enough to get close but have made some errors that look likely to see us fall short. So we need some tweaks but not wholesale changes

 

[dajesmac]

Good analysis Keys. Mind you there is no question Weller is ahead of Duggan. My only correction.

 

[Dark Sharks]

It must be our development team/coaches, particularly of midfield players. We said it last year and things haven't changed.


Duggan has clearly regressed, his 'elite kicking' skills seem to have gone out the window completely watching him in the WAFL sometimes. Very disappointing as far as i'm concerned, this one hurts the most.

Yeo has flourished being back under backline tutelage, after last seasons midfield debacle (which in fairness i was pushing along with others).

Redden... hell i don't even know. Maybe you can't attribute this to development because he's already a seasoned player, maybe he just sucks. Maybe it's Maybellene?

Jetta... See Redden ^

Sheed you'd think the jury is still out. Very poor performance in his first game but at least he went to WAFL and put in an effort to demand his spot back, he needs to be given a good run at the top level. 4th year player now, high draft pick, he has no excuses.

Partington i've never been sold on, but at least he's racking up consistent WAFL numbers albeit with minimal hurt factor. I'd like to see him be given a game at some point this year.

Mutimer i'm actually pleased with. I like the way he goes about things, he's clearly improved on last season.

Dustin Venables time will tell.

 

[RookiePick]

My gut feel is Duggan goes home at the end of this contract.

Surely being drafted as a mid at West Coast is becoming seen as a career killer over East.

 

[SpaceClef]

How bad was it? Was it much worse than Rioli ?

So much worse!!

Rioli got 13.2, which is the equivalent of training four or five medium size houses down.

Ryan got 10.1, which would typically struggle to knock down a small garden shed or outdoor toilet.

 

[SpaceClef]

My gut feel is Duggan goes home at the end of this contract.

Surely being drafted as a mid at West Coast is becoming seen as a career killer over East.

God damn, that would seriously hurt.

Brisbane like

 

[SpaceClef]

Yeh? Their team was built on early draft picks so cut the crap. Topped up with a lot of trading and very few late picks that have "made it". Certainly not since early years.

Our drafting has been poor because picks have been poor.

Mitchell - pick 36
Sewell - Rookie

Two integral members of their midfield core that they built around.

Sure they nailed almost all of their first round picks but they didn't have many more than any regular club.

We've had picks 2, 3, 4, 6 (originally), 7, 11 and 13 in the past decade.

Not that shabby.

We traded our first round picks on two other occasions.

 

[eagles rule]

My gut feel is Duggan goes home at the end of this contract.

Surely being drafted as a mid at West Coast is becoming seen as a career killer over East.

Not necessarily seen as a career killer to get 3 Brownlow medal midfielders in 10 or 11 years is good going ..

 

[liam123]

Gov or Blakey over lamb is easy to say now. At the time most on here considered Blakey vanilla with poor foot skills and gov worth only a third rounder. Lamb was considered a bargain with 32

 

[bodazoka]

Midfield is not the problem, playing 2 x ruckman is.

They seem to think it's uber important for our structure and it probably is when you have Naita and Lycett. But you can't just swap those guys out with lesser versions and expect the same run and carry from a previously slow midfield that you just added Sam Mitchell too (as good as he is).

 

[RookiePick]

Not necessarily seen as a career killer to get 3 Brownlow medal midfielders in 10 or 11 years is good going ..

Our last Brownlow medallist was drafted over a decade ago. Our last midfielder, who is a b22 lock, was drafted 7 years ago. That should be worrying.