WCE peak Judd was better than peak GAJ and peak Dustin Martin

[Falcon3518]

Same reason teams with Martin, Matthews, Judd, Lockett, Skilton, Carey, and every other player considered among the best ever lost matches.


Why put that expectation on Ablett - ‘mate you ONLY won 2 flags at your peak when you were playing for a contender in four years’ when another player easily in the greatest ever debate - Carey - won 2 flags when his peak with North stretched over a run of 7 consecutive preliminary finals appearances?

Why is GAJ held to a different standard than Carey?

He isn’t, Carey wasn’t that good in his GFs I think. But since it’s hard for fwds to win medals I give him a pass. Same reason I don’t bag fwds for not winning Brownlows and mids for not winning Colemans.


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[Falcon3518]

Luke Hodge played one of the great games in the 2008 Grand Final. Geelong would've won a hat trick of premierships and been hailed as the greatest team in the history of the game were it not for Luke Hodge operating as a virtual road block and snuffing out every attacking move forwards by Geelong.

That's no exaggeration either. Hodge's influence on that game of footy cannot be understated. The Cats literally went out of their gameplan in trying to avoid him and find another avenue towards goal. There were moments in that game when Hodge didn't even get a possession, but Geelong players took their eye of the ball as Hodge charged at them and fumbled away scoring chances inside fifty.



Gazza racked up 34 disposals, most of them fairly meaningless, a lot of ineffective 1-2's on the back of the centre square.
He was very twinkle-toed and looked pretty to watch. he played well. But he was nowhere near BOG

Stuart Dew was probably the 2nd best player on the ground after Hodgey.

Exactly, this is what I’ve been saying. You can’t look at pure stats on their own. BOG are the most reliable measure in assessing how good somebody is. It is the reason why almost every award is measured with them. I think GAJ is the best H&A for those reasons. His record MVPs and AFLCA awards won’t be beaten. Likewise for Dusty in finals. I think I’m being pretty fair here.


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[Lingsface]

Wow can’t believe you think Trac 2021 performance was better than dustys 2020 performance. Dees won by 70+ points Dusty dragged Richmond across the line in a come from behind win. We looked gone, we don’t win without him. This is what happens when people just look at numbers and not the influence on the games.

Also comparing fritsch’s 6 goals and dustys 6 goals in their GF and QF respectively is wrong. One is a forward and one is a mid.


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But you said he doesn’t tackle because he’s a forward?

 

[Falcon3518]

Hodge got BoG because they won and that’s fair enough that’s usually how it goes. He was outstanding and marshalled his team beautifully.

Yep, this can’t be measured with stats that you always site. This is why BOGs are more reliable to use.


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[PhatBoy]

He isn’t, Carey wasn’t that good in his GFs I think. But since it’s hard for fwds to win medals I give him a pass. Same reason I don’t bag fwds for not winning Brownlows and mids for not winning Colemans.


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But players of any position can win the norm smith.
Our three were shared between a permanent forward (at that point anyway - he spent more time in the middle later), a forward who rotated through the middle, and a midfielder - and if Hawkins kicked straight it would have been a full forward. McLeod won his two off a half back flank and wing. Hodge won his two as a half back. Martin won 1 of his basically as a forward.

 

[Falcon3518]

But players of any position can win the norm smith.
Our three were shared between a permanent forward (at that point anyway - he spent more time in the middle later), a forward who rotated through the middle, and a midfielder - and if Hawkins kicked straight it would have been a full forward. McLeod won his two off a half back flank and wing. Hodge won his two as a half back. Martin won 1 of his basically as a forward.

I think it’s a pretty well established that mids are the ones that get flooded with awards. I don’t really want to go down this rabbit hole with you about it. For what it’s worth GAJ’s peak is better than Carey’s imo. He’s not part of this thread though.


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[Back One Out]

But players of any position can win the norm smith.
Our three were shared between a permanent forward (at that point anyway - he spent more time in the middle later), a forward who rotated through the middle, and a midfielder - and if Hawkins kicked straight it would have been a full forward. McLeod won his two off a half back flank and wing. Hodge won his two as a half back. Martin won 1 of his basically as a forward.

Hodge was everywhere in the 2014 Grand Final. Wrong to say he played half back. He was winning centre clearances, kicking goals and setting up goals from CHF; saving goals deep in defence. He was everywhere.

 

[Falcon3518]

But you said he doesn’t tackle because he’s a forward?

Sorry, not sure what you mean by this question


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[PhatBoy]

Yep, this can’t be measured with stats that you always site. This is why BOGs are more reliable to use.


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He had 26 touches and a goal off half back the numbers still support that he had a very good game - and he did.

 

[PhatBoy]

Hodge was everywhere in the 2014 Grand Final. Wrong to say he played half back. He was winning centre clearances, kicking goals and setting up goals from CHF; saving goals deep in defence. He was everywhere.

That’s fair enough but it would be no different to if Corey Enright won the medal - he’s still primarily a defender he was just good enough to move onto the ball when needed

 

[PhatBoy]

I think it’s a pretty well established that mids are the ones that get flooded with awards. I don’t really want to go down this rabbit hole with you about it. For what it’s worth GAJ’s peak is better than Carey’s imo. He’s not part of this thread though.


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Brownlows yes - the likelihood of a KPP getting enough standout games across 22 rounds to beat out someone who is getting 30 touches a week is fanciful - but in a single game the odds of it being someone else rise.

I don’t really have an opinion on a Carey vs Ablett debate, they were very very different players with very different skill sets (both were obviously very good with the ball and their hands but that’s about where it ends)

 

[Falcon3518]

He had 26 touches and a goal off half back the numbers still support that he had a very good game - and he did.

Yep so the voters thought his on field leadership on top for this made him better than GAJ on the day despite having superior stats. Again this is why stats on their own can be unreliable.


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[PhatBoy]

Yep so the voters thought his on field leadership on top for this made him better than GAJ on the day despite having superior stats. Again this is why stats on their own can be unreliable.


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You or I don’t know what they were thinking. There’s every chance they thought ‘well Ablett individually was a clear standout but his side lost and it wasn’t close enough that we can give it to a player in the losing side, Hodge’s team won so ultimately it probably lands with him.’

As someone who has literally done that job at local level (not in AFL but in another code) I know that that’s how I, and other people, have made those sorts of decisions.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Luke Hodge played one of the great games in the 2008 Grand Final.

What a load of tripe - he benefited from some shithouse delivery, that he had no part in causing.

 

[SleepingGiant]

You do know it’s harder to stand out the better your teammates are right? More of a load spread between teammates. Each doing the team things.

GAJ had a better footballing peak because he best football is better than Dusty’s and by a decent distance.

Which is not to understate how good Dusty was but underline how unbelievable GAJ was.

And the fact to even try and argue you have to put so many qualifiers on Dusty’s performance and drag down GAJ to try and put Dusty ahead proves my point.

How the hell is his best football better than Dusty’s when he couldn’t dominate the biggest games? It’s like someone just says a narrative so much the believe it. It’s almost as if you want to blow smoke up the arse of a bald little trust fund white boy who stat padded his way with handballs.

Martin BOG 7/8 finals in a row 3 norm smiths higher peak end thread. 2017 - turned the momentum, 2019 - broke them game open in 2nd quarter and turned it, 2020 - clawed us back into it and put it to bed. Give me a better CV big boy. It’s like saying the UFC fighter with more wins is better than the heavyweight champ who decides to turn it on less regularly.

 

[SleepingGiant]

Luke Hodge played one of the great games in the 2008 Grand Final. Geelong would've won a hat trick of premierships and been hailed as the greatest team in the history of the game were it not for Luke Hodge operating as a virtual road block and snuffing out every attacking move forwards by Geelong.

That's no exaggeration either. Hodge's influence on that game of footy cannot be understated. One of the all-time great defensive efforts in an AFL Grand Final. The Cats literally went out of their gameplan in trying to avoid him and find another avenue towards goal. There were moments in that game when Hodge didn't even get a possession, but Geelong players took their eye off the ball as Hodge charged at them and they fumbled away scoring chances inside fifty.

Bomber Thompson famously had NFI how the Cats lost that game - he couldn't give an explanation as to what happened - but weeks later, he watched a replay of the game and just shook his head and said "F**kin Luke Hodge..." [that's a quote from an interview he did]

Gazza racked up 34 disposals, most of them fairly meaningless, a lot of ineffective 1-2's on the back of the centre square.
He was very twinkle-toed and looked pretty to watch at times. Don't get me wrong: he played well. But he was nowhere near BOG

Stuart Dew was probably the 2nd best player on the ground after Hodgey. Had 20 possessions and had a massive impact with most of those. Pretty much won the game with his 5 minute burst in the 3rd quarter, but he was very good all day.

Agree. Ablett maximalists trying to gobb off his 2008 GF to match Dusty hahaha. Little one two handball twinkle toes white boy. Geelong would have been pumped if it wasn’t for corrupt umpiring in the 1st half.

 

[Blackas87]

Ablett was better

 

[NeutralFan]

Gary Ablett Jnr is the best player I've ever seen. 2014 he was singlehandedly going to put Gold Coast in the finals and opposition could do nothing to him, then literally everyone knew their chances were shut after his shoulder injury.

 

[Scotland]

This is just another Geelong vs Richmond shit fight, Judd's peak was done and dusted before Geelong or Richmond were any good.

 

[Wojcinski]

This is just another Geelong vs Richmond s**t fight, Judd's peak was done and dusted before Geelong or Richmond were any good.

Not really, I think we all respect Judd's performances as at his peak he was incredible. This is just normal people with normal opinions vs one Richmond fan who simply cannot get over the fact that his idol isn't the GOAT

 

[Wojcinski]

Dusty has 9th most Brownlow votes in the history of the game, more than even Lethal and will most likely overtake Judd. What nonsense to call him a plodder, he even has 4 AAs on top of it.

Look Hodge got BOG that’s it, the voters must have seen something you missed probably on field leadership or something.


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career Brownlow votes are now the deciding factor of who was the best at their peak? Considering Ablett is #1 I think you need to shift those goal posts again bud

 

[TheRealComptroller]

This whole “GAJ never won a Norm Smith and Dusty has three thus Dusty is better” take is very flawed IMO.

Personally I don’t really care but FWIW Mike Sheahan, who is a disinterested party as he supports Melbourne and has been on the judging panel, thinks it is an epic injustice that GAJ wasn’t the 2008 NSM winner. He thinks it is utterly crazy that someone could think GAJ wasn’t the best player in that game. Luke Darcy also had him as BOG.

Also Dusty‘s three NSM wins are nowhere as impressive as you think they are when you dig a little deeper. The only one that is seemingly 100% undeniable is the one against the Giants. In 2017 Houli is the AFLCA choice for BOG and perhaps IIRC one of the newspapers also had him as the best player?

As for 2020, well not that he wasn’t the best performer that night but let’s be frank, nobody thinks anything from 2020 is considered anything but a pale imitation of the real thing. Some people don’t respect Essendon 2000 as real premiers because the season was a few weeks earlier than normal. FFS the 2000 season is a million times closer to a normal season than 2020. There was a poster on this site, a WCE fan, who felt that AFL 2020 was so far from being legitimate that he was not even going to bother to watch the GF. All awards received in that season, AAs, B&Fs … are seriously devoid of the same significance they would have if from any other season; 2020 NSM = not a real NSM. Trust me, my team played in that GF and I was so over that loss so rapidly it wasn’t funny. When the Cats beat Brisbane in the PF I was so deeply underwhelmed to be making that GF. Thanks universe, my team makes it to the GF for the first time in nine years and it’s in this season? Awesome.

Also FWIW, yes I know stats aren’t everything, hence FWIW, but just think about the fact that GAJ had 8x 30+ touch September games and Dusty has had zero. No, seriously that’s not a typo. GAJ has even had a 40 touch PF. But somehow there’s a suggestion GAJ failed to fire in the finals?

 

[PhatBoy]

This whole “GAJ never won a Norm Smith and Dusty has three thus Dusty is better” take is very flawed IMO.

Personally I don’t really care but FWIW Mike Sheahan, who is a disinterested party as he supports Melbourne and has been on the judging panel, thinks it is an epic injustice that GAJ wasn’t the 2008 NSM winner. He thinks it is utterly crazy that someone could think GAJ wasn’t the best player in that game. Luke Darcy also had him as BOG.

Also Dusty‘s three NSM wins are nowhere as impressive as you think they are when you dig a little deeper. The only one that is seemingly 100% undeniable is the one against the Giants. In 2017 Houli is the AFLCA choice for BOG and perhaps IIRC one of the newspapers also had him as the best player?

As for 2020, well not that he wasn’t the best performer that night but let’s be frank, nobody thinks anything from 2020 is considered anything but a pale imitation of the real thing. Some people don’t respect Essendon 2000 as real premiers because the season was a few weeks earlier than normal. FFS the 2000 season is a million times closer to a normal season than 2020. There was a poster on this site, a WCE fan, who felt that AFL 2020 was so far from being legitimate that he was not even going to bother to watch the GF. All awards received in that season, AAs, B&Fs … are seriously devoid of the same significance they would have if from any other season; 2020 NSM = not a real NSM. Trust me, my team played in that GF and I was so over that loss so rapidly it wasn’t funny. When the Cats beat Brisbane in the PF I was so deeply underwhelmed to be making that GF. Thanks universe, my team makes it to the GF for the first time in nine years and it’s in this season? Awesome.

Also FWIW, yes I know stats aren’t everything, hence FWIW, but just think about the fact that GAJ had 8x 30+ touch September games and Dusty has had zero. No, seriously that’s not a typo. GAJ has even had a 40 touch PF. But somehow there’s a suggestion GAJ failed to fire in the finals?

I can’t agree with the 2020 take - like I get that you didn’t care as much but the players still did and they were all on a level playing field so if someone is adjudged to have been in the best 22 of the year or the best and fairest or norm smith medalist, they were still achieving it measured against other players who were all trying equally hard.

But the rest is spot on

 

[Falcon3518]

Not really, I think we all respect Judd's performances as at his peak he was incredible. This is just normal people with normal opinions vs one Richmond fan who simply cannot get over the fact that his idol isn't the GOAT

You’re kidding right, you are the one that doesn’t think Judd’s peak is better than GAJ’s either when it clearly is. Keep living in denial, GAJs peak wasn’t the best consistency does not equal peak performance.


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[Falcon3518]

This whole “GAJ never won a Norm Smith and Dusty has three thus Dusty is better” take is very flawed IMO.

Personally I don’t really care but FWIW Mike Sheahan, who is a disinterested party as he supports Melbourne and has been on the judging panel, thinks it is an epic injustice that GAJ wasn’t the 2008 NSM winner. He thinks it is utterly crazy that someone could think GAJ wasn’t the best player in that game. Luke Darcy also had him as BOG.

Also Dusty‘s three NSM wins are nowhere as impressive as you think they are when you dig a little deeper. The only one that is seemingly 100% undeniable is the one against the Giants. In 2017 Houli is the AFLCA choice for BOG and perhaps IIRC one of the newspapers also had him as the best player?

As for 2020, well not that he wasn’t the best performer that night but let’s be frank, nobody thinks anything from 2020 is considered anything but a pale imitation of the real thing. Some people don’t respect Essendon 2000 as real premiers because the season was a few weeks earlier than normal. FFS the 2000 season is a million times closer to a normal season than 2020. There was a poster on this site, a WCE fan, who felt that AFL 2020 was so far from being legitimate that he was not even going to bother to watch the GF. All awards received in that season, AAs, B&Fs … are seriously devoid of the same significance they would have if from any other season; 2020 NSM = not a real NSM. Trust me, my team played in that GF and I was so over that loss so rapidly it wasn’t funny. When the Cats beat Brisbane in the PF I was so deeply underwhelmed to be making that GF. Thanks universe, my team makes it to the GF for the first time in nine years and it’s in this season? Awesome.

Also FWIW, yes I know stats aren’t everything, hence FWIW, but just think about the fact that GAJ had 8x 30+ touch September games and Dusty has had zero. No, seriously that’s not a typo. GAJ has even had a 40 touch PF. But somehow there’s a suggestion GAJ failed to fire in the finals?

I love how you just use disposals to see who was better not realising Dusty is not a pure mid. In the 2019 QF he kicked 6 goals with only 14 disposals, in the 2020 GF he had 21 dis for 4 goals and 2019 GF 22 dis for 4 goals. He is much more damaging with the ball then GAJ. Richmond play a low possession style, it is pointless to just use disposals to decide who’s better. Face it GAJ was an accumulator compared to Dusty and not as versatile either.


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