I reckon Bartlett is better than Martin and Judd.
He's behind the likes of Ablett, Carey, Matthews and probably quite a few others as well.
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WCE peak Judd was better than peak GAJ and peak Dustin Martin
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I reckon Bartlett is better than Martin and Judd.
He's behind the likes of Ablett, Carey, Matthews and probably quite a few others as well.
- May 21, 2015
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Not gonna argue with that
Bartlett was a magnificent player. Right up there in Richmond's all time greats.
Disagree about the Abletts (especially senior), but that doesn't diminish how good he was. His 1980 season - 84 goals at 33 years of age, freakishly good.
- May 21, 2015
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If KB played as a forward his whole career he would have gotten close to 1500 goals
Judd and Martin both a lot more damaging than GAJ at their best for mine. I’m probably picking peak WCE Judd first.
- Dec 5, 2012
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GAJ & Dustys ability to kick multiple goals consistently put them ahead.
Its splitting hears though.
Side note...Richmond offered pick 2 (Cotchin) and 18 (Rance) to WCE for Judd....
If Judd had came to Richmond in 2007 I doubt we finish 2nd bottom in 09 to then go on and draft Dusty
Its splitting hears though.
Side note...Richmond offered pick 2 (Cotchin) and 18 (Rance) to WCE for Judd....
If Judd had came to Richmond in 2007 I doubt we finish 2nd bottom in 09 to then go on and draft Dusty
I don't think it's that easy at all. There have been a lot of great players. Lots of great midfielders as well. Judd's peak was pretty brief and he was comfortably eclipsed by Ablett. You could easily argue Martin's peak was as good, at least as influential, and his finals record was unquestionably better.
Judd's peak was brief?
He won Brownlows (2), AFLPA MVP's (2) in different seasons to his Brownlows, club best and fairests (5) and All-Australians (6) over 8 seasons between 2004 and 2011!
You might also want to have a closer look at Judd's finals performances, because like all great players, he was also a great finals performer. Most would have Martin ahead, but the gap isn't as large as you'd think...
Judd copped a true tag during his time at Carlton as well. A time when every team in the competition had designated taggers.
- Aug 18, 2009
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It was like 911. Every footy fan remembers where they were & what they were doing when he went ballistic
It’s probably worth noting that Judd’s Carlton Brownlow in 2010 and AFLPA MVP in 2011 would probably rank as two of the weakest seasons a player has performed at to win those awards.
In 2010 Judd himself seemed a little weirded out by his victory. It wasn’t “Woewodin bad” but it was somewhat shocking. He made the AA team but not as a starter and every media award besides 3AW (which amazingly declared him #1) failed to include him in their top ten players of the season.
He won the Leigh Matthews Trophy in 2011 with just 90 AFLCA votes which was actually good enough for second place to Marc Murphy. Judd never received more than the 90 AFLCA votes in any season including 2006. For context Dustin Martin polled 90 AFLCA votes in 2016; before he became a superstar. Dane Swan had 114 in 2010, Dangerfield 121 in 2016, and Martin had 122 in 2017 (Dangerfield that season had 118 from one game fewer giving him the superior vote-to-game ratio).
I'm not sure what your point is with this post.
Seems to be some cherry picking here.
Check out the polling trends in both the AFLCA Award and Brownlow over time. Players are getting more votes to win both awards than players generally were in the Judd/GAJ era.
You reference Martin polling 90 AFLCA votes in 2016, 'before he was a superstar', and also mentioned his 2017 season. What of his 71 and 70 vote 2018 and 2019 seasons, followed by his 42 vote 2020 (COVID) season (assuming these are the superstar seasons to which you refer)?
The bottom line is, Judd was good enough to win the highest individual awards across 4 separate seasons. If he was lucky to win the Brownlow in 2010, he was unlucky not to win it in 2011 when he was an odds on favourite before the count.
Slow down.
Do you rate the Brownlow as a legitimate measurement of player performance?
I never bring it up in discussions around Player A vs Player B achievements. It’s not taken seriously because of its history of epic goofiness. I thought we, the type of people who would post on BigFooty, were all in total agreement on this. It’s the event for “casuals”.
Yes. Often it’s in sync with the rest of the industry’s view of the season’s best player/s but so many times it isn't and it’s just best to ignore it for the purposes of determining football greatness. It’s been awarded to three players this century who didn’t even make that year’s AA team at all and with Judd only included on the bench. What the actual. There’s a list a mile long of epic blunders they’ve made giving votes to players who did very little or giving zero or one to some of the season’s best performances. Jeremy Cameron in 2023 played one of the very best games of the year when he had 25 touches and kicked six but only polled one, Greg Williams getting 40+ touches and receiving no votes and IIRC Chris Grant got the three in a game where he had seven touches and didn’t score.
I’m genuinely shocked you have described it as “the highest individual award” when the internet spends Brownlow night laughing at all the dopiness in the voting.
According to the Brownlow you would have to believe Paddy Cripps in 2024 produced the most stunning season of football ever by a very wide margin. Even the most avid Carlton supporter would be cringing about that.
As for Dusty in 2018-2020 and his lack of AFLCA polling I wasn’t interested in those seasons as he wasn’t the AFLPA MVP then. I was pointing out how Dane, Danger and Dustin had to poll 114+ votes from the coaches and come first in the AFLCA award to win their AFLPA MVP trophies and Judd was 24-32 votes behind their totals when he won his in 2011 and the coaches were not in agreement with the AFLPA that he was the season’s best player. Hence making his win a little, though not extremely so, questionable.
More (and continued) cherry picking from you.
I didn't describe the Brownlow as 'the highest individual award', I referenced the 'highest individual awards', which are clearly the Brownlow, AFLPA MVP and AFLCA Coaches Award.
Why did you reference Martin's 90 AFLCA Coaches votes in 2016 'before he was a Superstar', if you were only highlighting the parallels between Coaches Award votes and the MVP? Wasn't Martin a 'superstar' any longer in 2018, 2019 and 2020? He couldn't have been, given his relatively low number of Coaches votes during the home and away season, right?
And you've doubled down on your reference to Swan, Dangerfield and Martin, and their Coaches votes in their MVP years.....
Swan at the time had polled the record number of Coaches votes, and the number of coaches votes the superstars of today are getting have increased significantly since Judd and GAJ's peak years. We had 3 players poll over 110 Coaches votes this year, and none of them were the Players MVP!
Let me ask you this - Where do you rate Judd amongst the players to have debuted since the turn of the century?
Regarding your claim about the extra votes being received by the élite performers in the AFLCA awards in recent times I have made a few observations/guesses etc. -
From 2023 it involved a 23 game season which means you should scratch roughly 5 points from those totals to historically normalise them.
The 2024 group could just be an outlier with the three 110+ players as 2023 didn’t have any.
When GAJ won in 2007 and 2009 he had 100+ and Chad Cornes also had 100+ in 2007.
Touk Miller won it with <100 votes as recently as 2022.
I wish I were a PhD in statistics with mad spreadsheet skills so I could do a deeper dive for you but nature didn’t make me that way. All I can do is provide this shitty shallow analysis.
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Regarding Dusty. I will amend my claim. Forget the “superstar” reference.
Here goes - after the 2016 season IIRC Martin wasn’t perceived to have just completed an overly great season IIRC yet the coaches determined that he played to the same level as Chris Judd had when he won his Carlton era Leigh Matthews Trophy leading me to infer that Chris Judd had therefore potentially been awarded that prize in error. I wish I could explain it more adroitly.
I’m not picking on Chris Judd at all. He is not the issue. I had the same problem when Andrew Brayshaw won that award in 2022 when he was nowhere close to being the AFLCA winner. Ditto Bont this year being 24 points behind Nick D. My respect for this award has severely atrophied. I used to be an epic evangelist for it before the AFLCA POTY came along.
FWIW Judd was much better in the eyes of the coaches in 2011 than Brayshaw was in 2022 as he only acquired 74 votes with seven players with better tallies which is an epic WTF.
- May 5, 2016
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The coaches hadn’t determined that at all.
The coaches had merely given him the same amount of points.
Those points are impacted by numerous things, key among them? The performances of any of the 43 other players on the field in any given game in which Judd, or Martin, played one of those games.
Two players can have 100 coaches votes in two different seasons.
One of them can do it where every game he does it it’s via 10 player of the match efforts where he’s a unanimous best on ground in a game where two plonking teams have a cripple fight and it’s almost impossible to find a next best player because everyone was so bad.
The other one might manage it through 17 games where he polls votes and most of those games are pulsating affairs between class teams where there’s a dozen good performances but this player still manages to attract the votes.
Equal coaches votes doesn’t equal identical levels of performance at all and no, before some Tigers nuffy assumes that’s a shot at Martin, it’s not. It’s an across the board rule.
I'm glad you've acknowledged your analysis is 'shitty and shallow'.
Because you are continuing to cherry pick.
Touk Miller/Clayton Oliver in 2022 was a rare <100 coaches vote season win. Aside from the reduced COVID season (where Neale won it with 93 votes from 17 games!), the only other sub 100 vote win since 2014 was Max Gawn with 97 votes in 2018. So excluding 2020, 8 of the 10 winners between 2014 and 2024 polled over 100 votes.
Compare that to 2005 to 2013, where 5 of the 9 winners polled less than 100 votes.
Maybe a statistical diagram representing voting trends over time is the only way to get the fact across... but maybe the players who are winning it now and polling over 100 votes (Oliver, Miller, Butters, etc.) are just simply better players than players that were (or weren't) winning it back then (GAJ, Franklin, Judd).
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Do you realise Chris Judd was also the odds on Brownlow Medal favourite in 2011?
So Players MVP, Brownlow favourite and 2nd in the AFLCA Coaches Award is a pretty strong season.
