WE NEED 12 TEAMS - WHO SHOULD GO ?

[Carey_is_King]

Originally posted by Port Adelaide 1870:
Saint Kilda : 1 premiership in a hundred years ?
North Melbourne : a huge drain on the AFL, the club & fans seem a pariah to the AFL.
Western Bulldogs : repeat Saint Kilda ( give or take a few years )

Who else ?
Merge two Melbourne sides, Melbourne and Hawthorn , before one of them diss.appears

Carey is King, It does matter that Port have won 34 SA premierships......Well at least I think it does... as they no longer play in the SANFL and are now a member of the AFL.


North Melbourne, Saint Kilda and Western Bulldogs need not fold, they could field their clubs as VFA / VFL entities and carry on their huge traditions in the Melbourne inviroment. With the HUGE Victorian support they have, the large Melbourne population and the tradition and history that the clubs carry, they could easily muster a crowd in the VFA / VFL. St. Kilda could pack out Junction Oval, North Melbourne ,Arden St. and Footscray ,Western Oval.

That way Victorian members of these clubs wouldnt have to concern themselves about interstate travel. These clubs would no longer be a drain on the more financial,traditional and successful clubs such as Essendon, Port , Carlton, Collingwood and Co.

Newer clubs like Adelaide, Freo, west coast would not be required to prop up the AFL 's lead weights, North Melbourne Saint Kilda etc.

PA1870

Pray, tell me how you interstate clubs are propping up the Melbourne clubs. In case you hadn't noticed, Port lost a quarter of a mill last year. Quite a turnaround from a $2.8M profit the year before. If you are propping us up we are in serious trouble. Most of the profits that Adelaide & West Coast make go back into the local leagues.
And while you are at it, tell me how North is "a huge drain on the AFL". Substantiate that statement if you can.

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Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[Carey_is_King]

Originally posted by FF:

Put yourself down against Essendon (don't forget now)

Still unregistered I see.
I don't hate Essendon. If I had to list the clubs/teams I really dislike, Essendon would not be in the first 6. I am no fan of Hird or Lloyd, but I don't hate them.


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Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[PieGirl#41]

I didn't read all the posts in this topic because a majority of them are just stupid quotes, so yeah don't have a go at me.

But I think that all the interstate clubs should be the ones to go.

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~*~Go Chippa!!~*~
~*~Go Binger!!~*~

 

[GoEagles]

Originally posted by PieGirl#41:
I didn't read all the posts in this topic because a majority of them are just stupid quotes, so yeah don't have a go at me.

But I think that all the interstate clubs should be the ones to go.

PieGirl - so take out the 6 interstate teams and just return the competition to the VFL? If that excites you, write to Wayne and ask!

I think that we'll still have a 16 team competition with most likely 2 less financial power Victorian teams to merge together and make way for a 2nd team in either Sydney or Brisbane. Tasmania and the Northern Territory dont seem to have any room to be included into the National competition either.

 

[CJH]

Posted by the Invisible Mullet

Much as I would like to see one of the underperforming interstate teams go I can't see it happening. for the quality of the game I agree that a 12 or 14 team competition is preferable. Those to go or merge:
Geelong
Bulldogs
Melbourne
Richmond

2 mergers and we'd have a good 14 team comp - wouldn't mind lists going up by a couple of players again though.

Can you justify these comments? I would suggest that at least 2, and possibly 3 of these teams would be ones that the AFL does not want to see go.

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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

port buddy how did u come to the conclusion that port adelaide is one of the traditional and succesful sides in the afl?
cheers!

 

[gocatsgo]

Realistically you are looking at a 14 team competition in the long term.

Personally I can't see too many clubs actually ending their existence.

Fitzroy in their last few years were in MUCH MUCH more trouble than any of the current teams. They were losing 1.5mil a year, didn't have a home base, were terrible on the field and had no supporters - to speak of.

The 2 teams in Victoria who have the most debt are in fact Geelong - who we all know about and Carlton. Both these clubs have one thing in common, they are the ONLY Victorian teams to run and operate a home ground that still hosts AFL matches.

You have to think that if clubs like North, The Bulddogs, StKilda, Collingwood, Richmond, Hawthorn and even Essendon still played at their traditional home grounds what sought of financial situation would they be in?

A little known fact is that in the 80s Geelong were in fact the richest club in the league. They had the opportunity to buy out Fitzroy and have the Lions play all their home games at Kardinia Park, many Fitzroy supporters actually wanted this to happen so their team could survive longterm. The only reason it didn't eventuate was because the league went bankrupt and had to look interstate for the comp to survive. At this stage Fitzroy had new owners who basically killed the club.

Realistically you are looking at 4 teams merging, maybe even a 3 into one. North, Bulldogs and Sydney - The West Sydney Kangaroos - playing out of Homebush.

You would expect the 2 teams with the least support in Melbourne, North and Bulldogs to be the teams in the long term that should merge, maybe even Melbourne and Richmond as their home grounds are next to each other - The Melbourne Tigers, they could forge a partnership with the NBL team and become the most successful sporting club in the country.

A 14 team comp and a 26 round season would be ideal

 

[PieGirl#41]

Now, Now, no need to crack the sads, yes I would like it to be the VFL, that is what it started as and that is how I would like it to go back to.

I think you just got shitty because you are an interstate supporter!

The AFL takes out clubs like Fitzroy to bring in more interstate clubs, I know Fitzroy were not the best team in the AFL but they were there for a long time, And thanks to assholes like Ross Oakley they are no longer!!


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~*~Go Chippa!!~*~
~*~Go Binger!!~*~

 

[Richmondfan#1]

Interstate football is very strong and will be supported.

Living in Perth, I get to see the hype surrounding AFL (west aussie teams in general) and it is incredibly strong. There are merchandise shops situated around Perth and fans everywhere. Teams always make front page if they succeed a terrific result or achieve something great.

In QLD, AFL is very strong with the Lions competing against the Broncos and getting the desired results.

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Tigerland is not made up. Only real supporters have been there and know how to get there.

[This message has been edited by Richmondfan#1 (edited 18 December 2000).]

 

[JUBJUB]

Originally posted by AlfAndrews:
Funny how no one has suggested that Collingwood should go. Is this some sort of admission, from all the Collingwood haters, that we are actually important to this competition. That we serve some function ...
********************************************

ALF
Collingwood does serve some function in the AFL.
Who else is going to keep Fremantle off the bottom of the ladder next year ?




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"Absatively Posilutely"

 

[Woofer]

The A.F.L doesn't need to change anything there is enough talent to spread through the A.F.L and there are enough fans if they all got off their bums and went to see their team play.

 

[Roylion]

I's just like to comment on something that 'Go Cats Go' said...
"A little known fact is that in the 80s Geelong were in fact the richest club in the league. They had the opportunity to buy out Fitzroy and have the Lions play all their home games at Kardinia Park, many Fitzroy supporters actually wanted this to happen so their team could survive longterm. The only reason it didn't eventuate was because the league went bankrupt and had to look interstate for the comp to survive. At this stage Fitzroy had new owners who basically killed the club."

Err...Go Cats Go....I'd just like to point out that Fitzroy was never under private ownership and in fact was a company limited by guarantee, with shareholders and ordinary members who had voting rights. It could not be bought out by Geelong....any merger proposal had to be ratified by the shareholders and ordinary members..just like Melbourne/Hawthorn.

While no doubt there were obviously offers of merger to Fitzroy right through the eighties from lots of clubs, the only ones Fitzroy seriously entertained were Melbourne in 1985, Footscray in 1989 and they also very seriously considered a relocation to Brisbane at the end of 1986. Geelong never had an opportunity to "buy out Fitzroy" and in fact most Fitzroy supporters that I knew in the eighties were strongly opposed to merger or relocation....with Geelong or anyone else. The "owners" were the management elected by the shareholders and ordinary members and they chose rightly or wrongly to maintain Fitzroy's individual identity until there were no further alternatives at which point they sought a merger.

 

[iron mike]

GET RID OF SYDNEY

THEYRE USELESS!!!

 

[The invisible mullet]

I can quite easily justify those comments in that you might see these 4 teams merge into 2 teams (which would give you the 2 teams you wish to remain).

To be purrfectly honest I put Richmond in there as a bit of bait and think the Sainters are more likely casualties unless they perform in the next couple of years.

Unfortunately with their current roster of players the Tiges look set for a couple more diabolical years unless they turn their form right around and 20 years of failure isn't going to keep them in the league in the long run.

Originally posted by CJH:
Can you justify these comments? I would suggest that at least 2, and possibly 3 of these teams would be ones that the AFL does not want to see go.

 

[dees*gal]

hey, well i don't think i'd be able to pick 4 teams to leave the afl, i mean, we need some crappy teams for fun, and we need good and medium teams. personally, i can't chose, but um, i'd say, nah, i really can't say!

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I luv shane woewodin. and the mighty dees whether or not you like it!!!

 

[TigerTank]

Originally posted by AlfAndrews:


But if we stay at the arse end of the ladder for much longer we'll be dead meat.

Good call, and the same goes for the Tigers and one or two others as well. The reality is no Victorian club would be immune to the damage that bad management and 10-20 years at the bottom of the ladder can cause.

Originally posted by The invisible mullet:
Much as I would like to see one of the underperforming interstate teams go I can't see it happening. for the quality of the game I agree that a 12 or 14 team competition is preferable. Those to go or merge:

Geelong
Bulldogs
Melbourne
Richmond

All things being equal Geelong should not be on the list, because the city of Geelong has more than enough people to support a successful AFL club, not to mention the large number of people from the Western Districts of the state who support them.

The fact that Geelong FC is in poor financial conditions shows just how poorly the club has been run for the last 10 years.


Personally, I think it should be left to market forces to sort out the survivors from those who merge or disappear. I don't overly see the need for a reduction in the number of clubs - just a more equitable way to fit 16 teams into 22 rounds.

Consider -

Group A) teams finished 1,4,5,8,9,12,13,16
Group B) teams finished 2,3,6,7,10,11,14,15

Teams in Group A play each other twice and teams in Group B once.

Teams in Group B play each other twice and teams in Group A once.

Get rid of designated return games between Freo and WCE, Adelaide and Port, Essendon and Collingwood. BINGO - It's now a truly national competition.



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TT - Obligatory bad-tempered Richmond supporter

 

[CJH]

Posted by the Invisible Mullet:
... To be purrfectly honest I put Richmond in there as a bit of bait...

...Unfortunately with their current roster of players the Tiges look set for a couple more diabolical years...

Yes I think I see things more clearly now.


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This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

 

[Dan26]

If we go down to 12, people will say: "If we get rid of two teams to get the number down to 10, then the AFL will be of an even higher standard" Where do you draw the line?

16 is fine, I think. As long as all the clubs can pay their way, there is no reason to kick any club out. Sure, you will get a higher standard with 12 teams, but 8 teams will be a higher standard than 12 too.

In fact, if you had an 8 team comp, you would have one of the highest standard elite sporting competition in the world. But who would care?

A similar response can be drawn if the AFL reduced to 12. Sure, the comp would be of a higher standard than 16, but who would care?

The AFL is of an incredibly high standard right now. I don't think many people realise this. The VFL/AFL is evener and stronger than it has ever been. The standard of footy each week is great, and there is no need to kick teams out just for the sake of it.

 

[Frodo]

Dan,
Let's suppose the season finished like this

Bulldogs 72 GD 110
Collingwood 68 GD 140
Essendon 68 GD 138
Fremantle 66 GD 180

If Essendon had played an away game at Fremantle and lost but Bulldogs and Collingwood had not had to play the 4th best side away wouldn't you think that was unfair?
Because if they had, and in all probability would have lost to Fremantle then chances are that Essendon would be minor premiers and have a double chance.

The imbalance caused by having teams not play each other twice will always bring the possibility of a final table that does not reflect the true status of each club in that season. Moreover teams can easily come 9th or tenth on the basis of the draw. For this reason retaining 16 teams is not conducive to a fair and balanced competition. Reducing to 14 teams with 26 rounds gives fairness and increases revenue. In contrast reducing to 8 clubs reduces income and diminishes the competition.


[This message has been edited by Frodo (edited 18 December 2000).]

 

[Aussie_Roo]

Who says we need a 12 team comp. Sure, I'd like every team to play each other twice, but I'm quite happy with the way things are at the moment with 16 teams. The teams that would go, would all be Victorian teams, and I can't see 4 Victorian teams folding to make it a 12 team comp..

 

[Carey_is_King]

Originally posted by Aussie_Roo:
Who says we need a 12 team comp. Sure, I'd like every team to play each other twice, but I'm quite happy with the way things are at the moment with 16 teams. The teams that would go, would all be Victorian teams, and I can't see 4 Victorian teams folding to make it a 12 team comp..

I said we need a 12 team competition, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me. It has generated some good (and some not so good) debate. That's what we are here for, right?


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Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[Rob]

Carey_is_King

What do you think happens to the TV rights money, the internet rights money, the merchandising dollars and the AFL's sponsorship money? It gets split up and distributed *evenly*. What do you think would happen to the TV rights for example, was able to be sold by each individual club, as in US baseball? According to an AFL report, Victorians make up 47% of TV audiences for AFL. Yet they have 62.5% of teams. Clearly if TV rights wasn't part of the equalisation fund, Victorian clubs would suffer.

Not that i'm advocating such a system, far from it, but to suggest that the equalisation fund no longer exists because money at the gate is no longer part of it is a tad naive.

And to suggest that the AFL is trying to 'get rid of Victorian clubs' (as some other people have suggested) while such a system is still in place is nothing sort of moronic. Simple way to eliminate 4 Victorian sides, just abolish the salary cap. Why don't the AFL do it if they're so keen to axe some clubs?

 

[Hawkforce.]

I think the above would have to qualify as unnecessary use of the "quote" function, but do as you will CIK.

Whether or not Victorian teams fall by the wayside, we will never see a twelve team comp again.

Unless

Football and Australia grow to a point that we can have promotion/relegation system a la the Premier League.

12 teams is simply to few to represent the Market forces around the country. Whilst interstaters have a point about overrepresentation of Vic clubs, we have to remember that Victoria is still the borth place of grass roots support.

We shouldn't be to quick to just rip the heart out of the home of footy.

Liked your system, TT.

 

[Port Adelaide 1870]

Originally posted by tiger_of_old:
port buddy how did u come to the conclusion that port adelaide is one of the traditional and succesful sides in the afl?
cheers!

1. the VFL invited Port Adelaide and Norwood to join the VFL several times from the early eighties as traditional strong SA based football clubs.

2. The Port Adelaide Football Club was formed in 1870.

3. Port have had a tradition playing VFA then the new breakaway VFL competition teams since 1879, the First against Geelong. the total amount of interclub games amounted to close to 100.

4. The AFL called for the next team to join the AFL from Adelaide to be a TRADITIONAL club based side.

5. The Port Adelaide Football Club ( formerly the Magpies ) as a very successful and old club in SA and met the AFL's criteria for a traditional , successful football club, so were duly were admitted to the AFL.

6. Richmond were a successful, traditional football club when admitted to the V.F.L. in 1908.


That fits the bill I think Tiger of Old .


PA1870

 

[sandie]

Rob
Gee this post sounds very similiar to a post you made on the 18/11 in the Why do Vics steal other states players, exactly the same stats that you are sprouting now, have you anything new to add, or are you always going to reply with these stupid stats. Get over it, Wa is not the be all and end all of Australia & surprisingly Eastern staters don't hate you.

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mantis

[This message has been edited by sandie (edited 18 December 2000).]