WE NEED 12 TEAMS - WHO SHOULD GO ?

[Grendel]

For a thread that started as a stir, a helluva lot of people took the bait.

No teams gonna go short term. All the clubs outside of Victoria are assured of a future for lack of competition in their respective states. Most all Victorian clubs will survive, if not in their own right, then in a merge or relocated format.

None of this will happen for a while yet. Keep the speculation going though, its amusing to read over the summer while we all wait for the season proper to start.

 

[Carey_is_King]

Ok, it was a bit of a stir, but I was also serious in my belief that 12 teams would benefit the game, the finances of the remaining clubs, and ensure everyone played each other twice. Nobody wants to see their club go, and you could mount a case for each club to stay.
I would like to close this now, and thanks for the responses. By and large they were worthwhile, and some very good points made.

I think it's time to start another subject, and it won't be about Essendon. (Dutchman, Walshy & Dan please note)

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Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[DEES RULE!]

all you people who said we should get rid/ merge malbourne are in one word... IDIOTS!
melbourne is the oldest club in the competition. true its had some bad times like most club but they overcame it pretty well. this is the competition with 16 teams and the idiots here who think we should get rid of 4 teams so that they wont have to strain their brains so hard to remember all those 16 teams really need to find something else in life that disturbes them and think that if they did get rid of 4 teams one of them could be the team they barrack for!!!!
people... AFL is incredable the way it is so let it be... why try to fix something if its not broken???!!! think about it!

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you might not like it... but i really don't care!
GO THE MIGHTY DEMONS!!!

 

[lioness]

Originally posted by Carey_is_King:

The overall playing standard would be improved with fewer teams.

Not sure I necessarily agree with this. The competition is tighter every year, there is still a bit of a gulf between say the bottom 3 or 4 and the rest of the teams, but that's been due to a few clubs having extraordinarily bad seasons for whatever reason. Not having a go here, just stating an opinion.

 

[Rob]

Ah sandie, still pushing your mythology. Fact remains that Victorians no longer make up the majority of support for the league, and their actual representation in the league far outweighs their supporter contribution. Whether you axe some clubs is another argument (something i'm not in favour of), but its pretty hard to argue Victorians are well and truly overrepresented in the *Australian* football league.

 

[Grendel]

Rob, totally wrong, the Victorian support base DO make up the majority of supporters in the league. Simply through weight of numbers, 10 Vic teams still have more support combined than 6 interstate (one of which is a relocated Vic side, the other a merged Vic side, who both still have significant Victorian support).

Regardless of that, now that the new TV rights deal has been done, NO side will fold in the forseeable future. Theres to much money to go around short term for that to now happen.

 

[dees01]

Firstly, why are there always people wanting to get rid of clubs? Anyway, with the new TV deal clubs in some danger like the Dogs and Roos should survive which is good for the competition.

 

[Joel]

No Clubs will go just yet. With the new TV deal it most likely means that all clubs will survive atleast in the short term.

While I don't think some clubs should have been in the AFL. I wouldn't really like to see any go.

 

[Frodo]

Originally posted by Grendel:
Rob, totally wrong, the Victorian support base DO make up the majority of supporters in the league. Simply through weight of numbers, 10 Vic teams still have more support combined than 6 interstate (one of which is a relocated Vic side, the other a merged Vic side, who both still have significant Victorian support).

It may be that if Subiaco and Football Park could accomodate as many people as the MCG that there would indeed by more interstate footy supporters than Victorian



[This message has been edited by Frodo (edited 20 December 2000).]

 

[Carey_is_King]

Originally posted by lioness22:
Not sure I necessarily agree with this. The competition is tighter every year, there is still a bit of a gulf between say the bottom 3 or 4 and the rest of the teams, but that's been due to a few clubs having extraordinarily bad seasons for whatever reason. Not having a go here, just stating an opinion.

Lioness,
What I was saying is that if you remove 4 teams, you reduce the number of registered players by about 150. If that then translated into the "worst" 150 players leaving the competition, the overall standard of play among the remaining players would be higher. It's theoretical, I agree, but highly likely I think.



------------------
Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[sabre_ac]

Originally posted by Grendel:
Rob, totally wrong, the Victorian support base DO make up the majority of supporters in the league. Simply through weight of numbers, 10 Vic teams still have more support combined than 6 interstate (one of which is a relocated Vic side, the other a merged Vic side, who both still have significant Victorian support).

Regardless of that, now that the new TV rights deal has been done, NO side will fold in the forseeable future. Theres to much money to go around short term for that to now happen.

Ok you have to clear up what your saying.

1.Are you saying victorian clubs have more support than the combination of all the interestate clubs.

2.Or you are you saying there are more football followers in victoria than all the other states put together.

They are two totaly different things.
Because as the enlightened one Dan said 1 in every five people support essendon

So of course the 10 vic clubs would have a larger supporter base than that of the 6 non vic clubs.

But if you mean there are more football supporters in victoria than the rest of the country.Well your wrong there,victoria has a bigger ratio of football supporters per population.But you cant possibly claim that the combination of Syd,QLD,WA,SA,TAS,NT is less than victoria.

 

[Same Old's]

Originally posted by Frodo:
It may be that if Subiaco and Football Park could accomodate as many people as the MCG that there would indeed by more interstate footy supporters than Victorian
[This message has been edited by Frodo (edited 20 December 2000).]

Well why don't the "interstate" clubs build bigger stadiums? Some of "those" clubs do have waiting lists so what are they waiting for?

You can only go on what you currently have.

[This message has been edited by Same Old's (edited 20 December 2000).]

 

[Dipper]

Giving an outside viewpoint from England,I think that it is always a shame when any clubs are forced to merge or relocate especially the traditional Melbourne clubs I understand that there are financial pressures but surely everything should be done to keep all the clubs even if it means that the richer clubs have to financially support the poorer ones indirectly.Mergers should be the absolute LAST resort & relocation really sucks-I mean I still feel sympathy for Fitzroy supporters & South Melbourne supporters & still miss having those clubs around in their original form.I would say to anyone who's club is under threat to fight the BASTARDS tooth & nail & never make it easy for them& even if it isn't your club that's threatened get involved anyway cos it's the history of the whole comp that's at stake.

 

[Crows OK]

Originally posted by Grendel:
Rob, totally wrong, the Victorian support base DO make up the majority of supporters in the league. Simply through weight of numbers, 10 Vic teams still have more support combined than 6 interstate (one of which is a relocated Vic side, the other a merged Vic side, who both still have significant Victorian support).

Regardless of that, now that the new TV rights deal has been done, NO side will fold in the forseeable future. Theres to much money to go around short term for that to now happen.

Grendel, I don't think so. There are quite a few of those 10 Vic clubs with quite meagre support. There have been figures published quite a few times now which show that Victoria has about 47% of the total TV audience for aussie-rules footy. The general support pretty much follows that figure as well, I have heard.

The thing that gets up peoples nose is that, with only 47% of the audience, still Vic has 62.5% of the clubs, and hence gets 62.5% of the return from TV revenue. Nice little bonus of funding going into Vic from other states now that TV rights are purported to be worth $100 mil per year.

Should keep a few Vic clubs afloat for a few more years based on that funding from interstate.

Shame!

 

[Stealth bomber]

Leave well enough alone.

I don't want to see anyone else phased out or relocated. It may seem laughable that an admitted relative neophyte like myself (and a foreigner no less) may say this but I consider myself a purist.

If I had things my way, we'd still have the South Melbourne Swans and the Fitzroy Lions, in ADDITION to a Sydney club and a Brisbane club.

Seeing an establishment that's been around for 100 years basically cease to exist or get reborn in some bastardized conglomeration is upsetting to me, no matter who it is.

 

[Crows OK]

I think you are all missing the point here.

Leave it how it is. Wait a few years and >BOOM< the AFL will want to dispose of a club so let them do so. Only time will tell so for now, let's sit back, relax and enjoy our footy!

 

[The Dutchman!]

Ok

6 pages in and I thought I might contribute something.

This is a better thread than perhaps it should be (well spotted Grendel)...

Observations:

1. As an supporter of a financially secure Victorian team I think it is in very bad taste to speculate about culling any teams - this is not sentimental as I know it is likely one or two will eventually go/ merge but frankly when you talk about cullign you are talking about culling Victorian teams - making further cuts to the grass roots of the game - I know if the Dons were to be culled I would be devestated but just cos we're bigger/ more successful doesn't make the culling of a smaller Vic club any less or more devestating to the individual life long supporter. I will instead talk about teams in terms of retention arguments.

2. Freo, WCE, Port, Crows and Lions will all be strong long term - Sydney maybe - no threat of culling there.

3. There is no way Richmond (11 flags), Melbourne (12 flags) or Hawthorn (8+ flags) will go - they are all now Establishment clubs - they will always find a way financially. Beside, Richmond and Collingwood are both potential Essendon-size powerhouses if& when their teams come good again and the AFL would be insane financially to spurn that... Also, Hawthorn's supporter base has grown appreciably in the last 15 years following their success from the early 70s onward - and its good to see (although their jumper is still appalling)

4. The Cats should definitely be retained - they represent a similar size popln base to Freo and just need better management.

5. I personally think that we'll see teams in Canberra and Tassie to fill out the AFL at the expense of Melb clubs - with 16 teams the appropriate number but I don't want to speculate on who should go/ merge or be retained.

All the best
Dutchy

PS> As an aside I'm not overly happy that 1 in 5 people support the dons - I think I preferred it when we were on the way up - challenging the Woods, Blues and Tigers in the late 70's/ early 80s... not a big fan of the bandwagon supporter base. Its not what footy is all about.

PPS: We don't start the Essendon topics CIK, we leave that to CHF and the trolls - we just respond to them...

 

[Port Adelaide 1870]

Originally posted by Same Old's:
Well why don't the "interstate" clubs build bigger stadiums? Some of "those" clubs do have waiting lists so what are they waiting for?

You can only go on what you currently have.

[This message has been edited by Same Old's (edited 20 December 2000).]

Football Park in Adelaide is currently undergoing some upgrading including a second tier grandstand on the northern end capable of seating a further 7 or 8 thousand people, taking its capacity to 54,000 seated people.


PA1870

 

[Port Adelaide 1870]

Originally posted by The Dutchman!:



one or two will eventually go/ merge but frankly when you talk about cullign you are talking about culling Victorian teams -

making further cuts to the grass roots of the game -

I know if the Dons were to be culled I would be devestated but just cos we're bigger/ more successful doesn't make the culling of a smaller Vic club any less or more devestating to the individual life long supporter.


Just a thought Dutchie,

(This is not meant to be a bait for abuse ,just another perspective.)

Many outside of Victoria ( not all ) dont really seem to be bothered about the demise of Victorian based AFL clubs.

The then VFL were hellbent on expanding the Victorian based competition controlled by the requirements of Channel 7. For a national sport to be able to be used as a vehicle for national companies based in Victoria that sponsored Melbourne based clubs ( for huge money ) that wanted access to WA and SA markets thru' National T.V. exposure.

If the VFL were altruistic in their quest for the betterment of football, they would have joined with the other state leagues and truly made a national comp.

The Grass roots of football is not Victorian Football. The grass roots of football is anywhere where communities have a passion for the game and nurture it through all levels right up to league.


Yes two men that lived in Melbourne at the time helped develop the code, BUT it did not somehow belong to them or Melbourne.

The first organised game of Football ( recorded ) in Adelaide was in the late 1850's.
with a first Adelaide team being formed in 1860.

The grass roots of Football in The league Football states of WA and SA were
forever adulterated by the infection of Victorian Football/T.V./Business interests.

All for the survival of Melbourne suburb named football clubs................

Some will say thats business.....

others will say, without these interstate leagues the AFL as it is now would NEVER be in the position it is now with Pay TV etc


A number of VFL clubs would have gone to the wall if not for Australian money,
instead of Victorian money.

THIS IS NOT A SHOT AT VIC TORIAN FOOTBALL BARRACKERS.

The VFL killed traditional league football/ Grass roots football outside of Melbourne
it has turned league football in WA and SA into saturday fairs, with goonish subliminated jumper donned teams, and face painters for the kids who get in free.

The mounds are bare, and coaches talk of making sure they can turn over the lads up to AFL standard so the club can get enough money to survive and so the clubs can field competitive teams of Youths each year.

No longer will clubs have Legends of the Game... No longer will we see 300 game players...no longer will we see triple magarey medallists, no longer will we see
comparisons between leagues, no longer will we see 36, 000 between Port and Norwood at footy park, no longer will the Legend status of SA footballers or WA footballers be reached.

The name the "Port Adelaide Football Club"....is now owned by a Melbourne based business...the AFL

No longer is the traditional banter encountered at the bar as it is in Melbourne
except for this composite state sided conglomerate "the Crows' and the last Bastion of SANFL history to remain at league level...Port Adelaide ( the Power )

The VFL in its quest to get better and better, just bought and bought.

The SANFL for decades was widely recognised as having the best GRASS ROOTS junior development system in Australia, while the VFL was recognised as having a dismal junior system.

Dont be mistaken I love Port Adelaide and I love their involvement in the new AFL

However when Victorians are upset about the demise of Melbourne suburb named teams.....it largely falls on deaf ears..

and the dulcid tones..." Thats business " pervades the air.

PA1870

 

[Hawkforce.]

That's absolutely true, PA 1870.

But surely aren't suggesting that we in Victoria shouldn't fight as hard as we can to save our clubs for as long as we can?

 

[ptw]

Great post PA1870 - my feelings exactly.

I also read an article (I think by Phil Cleary) who sad that involvement in football, particularly in SA, Vic, WA) has declined since the AFL. The AFL has gone up but the country leauges, SANFL, WAFL etc are floundering.

Hawkforce - I also agree that everyone has the right to fight for whoever is important to them - no worries.

I agree with PA1870 however that the demise of Fitzroy for example is no more significant than the demise of West Torrens.

The AFL do not owe North (to pick one team as an example) anything. They did not care about any of the teams who went to the wall as a result of the VFL's actions, so to now get all sentimental about 1 or 2 clubs does not make sense.

Anyway........

ptw

 

[The Dutchman!]

No argument from me PA1870 on anything you wrote - all correct - but I would also concur with Hawkforce's subsequent additional...

 

[the original CrowsOK]

Originally posted by Crows OK:
I think you are all missing the point here.

Leave it how it is. Wait a few years and >BOOM< the AFL will want to dispose of a club so let them do so. Only time will tell so for now, let's sit back, relax and enjoy our footy!

Look at that - a handle theif.

Flattery in a way, I suppose - but get your own handle, mate, and leave off with the spoof.

 

[Bomber Babe]

Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood, Hawthorn & Richmond will never merge/fold. Anyone who says otherwise have got their hand on it - and are pulling way too hard. I think all clubs will be right for at least the nest 7 years.
Oh and Carey_is_king, saying that the Hawks had 'dogs & cats' as members is typical of the crap you write. I think your just bitter that they continually have more members that North despite not making thr finals for the last few years, while your team has led the competition in that time and has struggled off field. BTW, haven't you got anything better to do than post tons of messages everywhere?

 

[Frodo]

Bit of nasty girl eh Bomber Babe