Toast Welcome to Hawthorn, Finn Maginness “absolute Hawthorn nuffie” and a Hawk to 2025

[eldorado]

Have you had a name change?

We really should have guessed, shouldn't we?

 

[The Chad and I]

We really should have guessed, shouldn't we?

mutes carry over

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Think the point comes back around to it not being a physical thing, rather mental. Finn has a lot of good traits but he also has a lot of improvements. It’ll be intriguing to see how he develops over the coming seasons.

 

[Holy Rioli]

He might be quicker on a running track with repetition, but simply put on the park when presented with an opponent who is fleet of foot he’s left wanting.

is that not just the nature of a tagger though? I mean if he sprinted ahead of him, the other player could just change direction, turn around etc to get space. The tagger has to do the reactionary running which means he always looks like he's behind/slow playing catch up.

With that said, of course Rioli is faster than Finn.

 

[toomanysquibs]

Reality: at the draft combine Finn ran the 20-metre sprint at 2.95 seconds. Weddle's time by comparison was 2.93. Rioli's time was 2.89.

They are all super times and show elite acceleration, regardless of whether we notice it in their game. I think it's one of the reasons why Finn's opponents have such a hard time finding space.

I think his athleticism and application, much like with Nash is the past will earn him a spot on the list because there is a lot to work with

You want to be sub 2.9 to be truly quick over 20M.

I'm guessing Cyril was closer to 2.8 and capable of high 2.7s over 20 M at his peak. He was operating on another level to everyone else most times he played , faster than anyone else on the ground.

We've not had someone like that since he retired.

 

[KermitJagger]

You want to be sub 2.9 to be truly quick over 20M.

I'm guessing Cyril was closer to 2.8 and capable of high 2.7s over 20 M at his peak. He was operating on another level to everyone else most times he played , faster than anyone else on the ground.

We've not had someone like that since he retired.

Nah, I don't think so. Reality is that Ryan Schoenmakers and Jack Watts both broke that barrier and neither would be considered a fast footy player.

You can be as fast as you want, but it's not going to mean anything if you can't sum up a situation and make the decision to run before your opponent. Take blokes like Sam Mitchell or Simon Black, they were some of the slowest going around but it didn't make a difference because they'd have 2 steps on their opposition by the time they made the decision to run.

Finn is quick, but he's not a natural footy player, so he can't properly express it on the footy field. Cyril is a bad example because he was a rare combination of both exceptionally quick and an exceptionally quick decision maker, if you ever watch Cyril highlights in slow motion you can see his head and his eyes are almost darting around in real time as the rest of the video moves at 25% speed.

 

[SSSSSS]

You want to be sub 2.9 to be truly quick over 20M.

I'm guessing Cyril was closer to 2.8 and capable of high 2.7s over 20 M at his peak. He was operating on another level to everyone else most times he played , faster than anyone else on the ground.

We've not had someone like that since he retired.

Cyril was a freak because he was the rare combo of being fleet of feet and quick of mind.

He was the freakiest of the freaks because he was arguably the #1 player in the AFL at both aspects.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Cyril was a freak because he was the rare combo of being fleet of feet and quick of mind.

He was the freakiest of the freaks because he was arguably the #1 player in the AFL at both aspects.

There will never be another Cyril

 

[Yardie]

There will never be another Cyril

There probably won't, but most of us got to see his whole career

 

[TheFourPillars]

There probably won't, but most of us got to see his whole career

Yep, including his VFL grand final appearance

 

[toomanysquibs]

Nah, I don't think so. Reality is that Ryan Schoenmakers and Jack Watts both broke that barrier and neither would be considered a fast footy player.

You can be as fast as you want, but it's not going to mean anything if you can't sum up a situation and make the decision to run before your opponent. Take blokes like Sam Mitchell or Simon Black, they were some of the slowest going around but it didn't make a difference because they'd have 2 steps on their opposition by the time they made the decision to run.

Finn is quick, but he's not a natural footy player, so he can't properly express it on the footy field. Cyril is a bad example because he was a rare combination of both exceptionally quick and an exceptionally quick decision maker, if you ever watch Cyril highlights in slow motion you can see his head and his eyes are almost darting around in real time as the rest of the video moves at 25% speed.

He's literally at 2.95 over 20M and you're arguing that he's AFL quick? We both know that is not true.

And Shoey didn't break 2.9, that's also not true.

Plus, the rare success that Jack Watts had was partly due to how quick he was at running.

And I'm not the one who brought Cyril into this. I was responding to someone who did.

Smarts and super agility like Sammy had can make you a top level player.No argument there. But he had super agility to go with that. Black as well, really smooth mover in the Pendles category of agile.

Finn isn't quick. That's all that's being argued here. He's quick enough. But not fast in a comp where you have guys who can run sub 2.8 seconds over 20M, and plenty under 2.9

He does have something to offer in that massive tank of his. I have gone to pains to say I think he's still got improvement in him, and will become a player.

But let's stop making stuff up, Finn is expressing how fast he is in games. He's just not that quick, you can see he doesn't even crack the top 5 from the weekend's game.

 

[Roby]

Nah, I don't think so. Reality is that Ryan Schoenmakers and Jack Watts both broke that barrier and neither would be considered a fast footy player.

You can be as fast as you want, but it's not going to mean anything if you can't sum up a situation and make the decision to run before your opponent. Take blokes like Sam Mitchell or Simon Black, they were some of the slowest going around but it didn't make a difference because they'd have 2 steps on their opposition by the time they made the decision to run.

Finn is quick, but he's not a natural footy player, so he can't properly express it on the footy field. Cyril is a bad example because he was a rare combination of both exceptionally quick and an exceptionally quick decision maker, if you ever watch Cyril highlights in slow motion you can see his head and his eyes are almost darting around in real time as the rest of the video moves at 25% speed.

I agree with most of what you say there. I'd add that we measure 0-20m but it's probably better to have measurements of 0-5m and 0-10m dashes. How often does a player run 20m before having to bounce or facing an opponent? The 0-5m would happen much more often, and if you were 0.3 seconds faster there, it could take more than 20m to catch up to that player.

And then you have lateral movement. So even if a player is faster 0-20m if the player lacks agility they'll lose their opponent from that too.

 

[toomanysquibs]

I agree with most of what you say there. I'd add that we measure 0-20m but it's probably better to have measurements of 0-5m and 0-10m dashes. How often does a player run 20m before having to bounce or facing an opponent? The 0-5m would happen much more often, and if you were 0.3 seconds faster there, it could take more than 20m to catch up to that player.

And then you have lateral movement. So even if a player is faster 0-20m if the player lacks agility they'll lose their opponent from that too.

0-5M testing is a much better metric for midfielders in particular, I think it would turn things upside down for guys like Sammy who accelerate like an EV compared to a combustion engine. Their top speed might be lower, but they take off much faster.

 

[KermitJagger]

He's literally at 2.95 over 20M and you're arguing that he's AFL quick? We both know that is not true.

And Shoey didn't break 2.9, that's also not true.

Plus, the rare success that Jack Watts had was partly due to how quick he was at running.

And I'm not the one who brought Cyril into this. I was responding to someone who did.

Smarts and super agility like Sammy had can make you a top level player.No argument there. But he had super agility to go with that. Black as well, really smooth mover in the Pendles category of agile.

Finn isn't quick. That's all that's being argued here. Not in a comp where you have guys who can run sub 2.8 seconds over 20M, and plenty under 2.9

Oh sorry, Schoenmakers ran 2.9s - that last .01 of a second really is the difference.

Finn is quick, his times are generally enough to get in to the top of the AFL draft rankings. He was a very high level junior 400m and 800m runner.

There's also not many people running a sub 2.9s 20m, at least not when you look at drafts since 2015. There are a total of 23 players who ran those times, 8 of whom played a game in 2023 with most of the remaining 15 not on AFL lists, either having been delisted or not drafted at all. There has been one solitary player in that time frame, Reef McInnes, who ran sub 2.8s.

 

[matey]

Watching him closely on Sat given a job he is so disciplined and would be a nightmare for an oppo player if he walks towards you before the bounce. A Finn type is always needed in your best 22. Looking forward to the Pies game already especially watching their fans!

 

[toomanysquibs]

Oh sorry, Schoenmakers ran 2.9s - that last .01 of a second really is the difference.

Finn is quick, his times are generally enough to get in to the top of the AFL draft rankings. He was a very high level junior 400m and 800m runner.

There's also not many people running a sub 2.9s 20m, at least not when you look at drafts since 2015. There are a total of 23 players who ran those times, 8 of whom played a game in 2023 with most of the remaining 15 not on AFL lists, either having been delisted or not drafted at all. There has been one solitary player in that time frame, Reef McInnes, who ran sub 2.8s.

You said Schoey was sub 2.9, and he wasn't. What's the issue?

Ditto on Watts, he had success almost only because he was fast.

Surely you know that .1 seconds is enough time for a player to get to the ball first?

I don't have time to go looking up combine results, but there are multiple players every year who break 2.9 seconds.

This is all deflecting though. Finn's time was 2.95, and you made up points about Watts and Schoey.

Also, the combine wasn't held from 2019 to 2021... I'm pretty sure you have to look up each state separately.

 

[KermitJagger]

You said Schoey was sub 2.9, and he wasn't. What's the issue?

Ditto on Watts, he had success almost only because he was fast.

Surely you know that .1 seconds is enough time for a player to get to the ball first?

I don't have time to go looking up combine results, but there are multiple players every year who break 2.9 seconds.

This is all deflecting though. Finn's time was 2.95, and you made up points about Watts and Schoey.

Also, the combine wasn't held from 2019 to 2021... I'm pretty sure you have to look up each state separately.

Because I said it from memory, he didn't break 2.9 but he hit it. Point still stands that neither seemed exceptionally quick on the field, despite recording good testing numbers. Watts never succeeded in anything, let alone due to speed - in fact you can google him and find numerous articles talking about how apathetic he looked, "laconic" or lazy.

On the flip side you can look at someone like Weddle who seems extremely quick, or Jaidyn Stephenson who made people look like statues in his first few years, and both of those guys ran 2.94 and 2.95 which is slower than a fair few players who have recorded better times but don't express it well on the field.

My point is that Finn is quick, you can't say that he isn't "AFL quick" when he's in the top 10 of almost every draft in the past 10 years. The problem is that he's not an instinctual football player so he can't use that speed on the field.

Also, the combine wasn't held officially in 2020 but the states still ran them and those results can be found combined on the internet. I used those figures. Here's the list of players since 2015 who have broken 2.9s.

Side note: 2020 is over-represented in this list as the trials were held outside, not in controlled situations under cover, so there is an asterisk over some who ran with a tailwind.

	Time	Name	Played in 2023?	If no, on a senior list?
2022​	2.814​	Edward Allan	N	Listed
2022​	2.88​	Toby McMullin	N	Listed
2022​	2.883​	Coby Burgiel	N	Listed
2021​	2.845​	Harvey Harrison	Y
2021​	2.898​	Taj Woewodin	Y
2020​	2.779​	Reef McInnes	Y
2020​	2.801​	Max Holmes	Y
2020​	2.86​	Godfrey Okerenyang	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.87​	Liam Kolar	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.873​	Isiah Winder	N	Listed
2020​	2.88​	Seamus Mitchell	Y
2020​	2.887​	Zavier Maher	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.89​	Josh Eyre	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.896​	Fraser Rosman	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.897​	Jamarra Ugle-Hagan	Y
2019​	2.867​	Sam Philp	N	Not Listed
2019​	2.885​	Ben Johnson	N	Not Listed
2017​	2.87​	Jack Petruccelle	Y
2016​	2.87​	Jacob Allison	N	Not Listed
2015​	2.88​	Alex Morgan	N	Not Listed
2015​	2.88​	Kurt Mutimer	N	Not Listed
2015​	2.89​	Liam Jeffs	N	Not Listed
2015​	2.89​	Daniel Rioli	Y

 

[Dewyyyyy]

He's literally at 2.95 over 20M and you're arguing that he's AFL quick? We both know that is not true.

And Shoey didn't break 2.9, that's also not true.

Plus, the rare success that Jack Watts had was partly due to how quick he was at running.

And I'm not the one who brought Cyril into this. I was responding to someone who did.

Smarts and super agility like Sammy had can make you a top level player.No argument there. But he had super agility to go with that. Black as well, really smooth mover in the Pendles category of agile.

Finn isn't quick. That's all that's being argued here. He's quick enough. But not fast in a comp where you have guys who can run sub 2.8 seconds over 20M, and plenty under 2.9

He does have something to offer in that massive tank of his. I have gone to pains to say I think he's still got improvement in him, and will become a player.

But let's stop making stuff up, Finn is expressing how fast he is in games. He's just not that quick, you can see he doesn't even crack the top 5 from the weekend's game.

Yes he is, he got 2.95 and that was before he did a bunch of work with the speed project. His top speed went from 32 to almost 40 Km/hr over an off-season. He is quick, it isn’t a physical it’s a mental thing and it’s a transfer to AFL level. This isn’t a discussion.

Players that have both are those who are very very good players. Rioli is a phenomenal example.

As mentioned, there are many players who recorded times that weren’t sub 2.9 but are very quick players, albeit would’ve made improvements over their afl pre seasons.

Weddle & Stephenson were the examples and are good examples.

 

[toomanysquibs]

Yes he is, he got 2.95 and that was before he did a bunch of work with the speed project. His top speed went from 32 to almost 40 Km/hr over an off-season. He is quick, it isn’t a physical it’s a mental thing and it’s a transfer to AFL level. This isn’t a discussion.

Players that have both are those who are very very good players. Rioli is a phenomenal example.

As mentioned, there are many players who recorded times that weren’t sub 2.9 but are very quick players, albeit would’ve made improvements over their afl pre seasons.

Weddle & Stephenson were the examples and are good examples.

First, that’s awesome that Finn is getting those times, it’s a credit to him. He’s a very hard worker, which is why I think he will make it.

Every player will improve after their draft year though. They get into an elite coaching system once they’re on a list. I know a college football coach in the US, and it’s similar in his world.

But it proves the point a bit, that while players improve with training, their baseline at the combine isn’t equal so the same improvements don’t yield equal results. Finn was quick, now he's quicker.

It’s why the testing is so important to teams when they consider options. It gives them an idea of where players strengths are.

If you have great agility for example, then speed isn’t as important. Weddle is amazing because he has crazy agility to go with his speed, like Callaghan from GWS does. When those guys put on the afterburners and start carving through traffic, it's insane to watch.

Never said Finn was slow just to be clear. He's not, and he wasn't as a junior. But poll the Hawks membership asking who our fastest player is, and it won't be him that gets the most votes. AFL wide it would be no different.

 

[bigmaxi]

Yes he is, he got 2.95 and that was before he did a bunch of work with the speed project. His top speed went from 32 to almost 40 Km/hr over an off-season. He is quick, it isn’t a physical it’s a mental thing and it’s a transfer to AFL level. This isn’t a discussion.

Players that have both are those who are very very good players. Rioli is a phenomenal example.

As mentioned, there are many players who recorded times that weren’t sub 2.9 but are very quick players, albeit would’ve made improvements over their afl pre seasons.

Weddle & Stephenson were the examples and are good examples.

FWIW its Finn's tank, he is relentless all game. Repeat efforts just wear the other guy down. I love seeing the guys faces, like Touk Miller's, when he spots Finn at his shoulder at a throw in in the last quarter. Make a great VIC bitter advert. "....matter a fact I've got it now!"

 

[toomanysquibs]

Because I said it from memory, he didn't break 2.9 but he hit it. Point still stands that neither seemed exceptionally quick on the field, despite recording good testing numbers. Watts never succeeded in anything, let alone due to speed - in fact you can google him and find numerous articles talking about how apathetic he looked, "laconic" or lazy.

On the flip side you can look at someone like Weddle who seems extremely quick, or Jaidyn Stephenson who made people look like statues in his first few years, and both of those guys ran 2.94 and 2.95 which is slower than a fair few players who have recorded better times but don't express it well on the field.

My point is that Finn is quick, you can't say that he isn't "AFL quick" when he's in the top 10 of almost every draft in the past 10 years. The problem is that he's not an instinctual football player so he can't use that speed on the field.

Also, the combine wasn't held officially in 2020 but the states still ran them and those results can be found combined on the internet. I used those figures. Here's the list of players since 2015 who have broken 2.9s.

Side note: 2020 is over-represented in this list as the trials were held outside, not in controlled situations under cover, so there is an asterisk over some who ran with a tailwind.

	Time	Name	Played in 2023?	If no, on a senior list?
2022​	2.814​	Edward Allan	N	Listed
2022​	2.88​	Toby McMullin	N	Listed
2022​	2.883​	Coby Burgiel	N	Listed
2021​	2.845​	Harvey Harrison	Y
2021​	2.898​	Taj Woewodin	Y
2020​	2.779​	Reef McInnes	Y
2020​	2.801​	Max Holmes	Y
2020​	2.86​	Godfrey Okerenyang	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.87​	Liam Kolar	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.873​	Isiah Winder	N	Listed
2020​	2.88​	Seamus Mitchell	Y
2020​	2.887​	Zavier Maher	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.89​	Josh Eyre	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.896​	Fraser Rosman	N	Not Listed
2020​	2.897​	Jamarra Ugle-Hagan	Y
2019​	2.867​	Sam Philp	N	Not Listed
2019​	2.885​	Ben Johnson	N	Not Listed
2017​	2.87​	Jack Petruccelle	Y
2016​	2.87​	Jacob Allison	N	Not Listed
2015​	2.88​	Alex Morgan	N	Not Listed
2015​	2.88​	Kurt Mutimer	N	Not Listed
2015​	2.89​	Liam Jeffs	N	Not Listed
2015​	2.89​	Daniel Rioli	Y

There are 3 years of players missing from this list, but mostly, this proves my point despite me being wrong about the numbers breaking 2.9 in some years. Elite speed is a lot faster than 2.956... Mostly it's sub 2.9. By the time players are in the system a year or two, they're probably running 2.8s and better.

But mostly, my response above to Dewy says it all. Nobody has said Finn is slow. But he's not known to be a grass burner compared to the really quick players in the league, and the metrics from Saturday prove it.

 

[Roby]

Finn's real test will be in 2 weeks.

 

[KermitJagger]

There are 3 years of players missing from this list, but mostly, this proves my point despite me being wrong about the numbers breaking 2.9 in some years. Elite speed is a lot faster than 2.956... Mostly it's sub 2.9. By the time players are in the system a year or two, they're probably running 2.8s and better.

But mostly, my response above to Dewy says it all. Nobody has said Finn is slow. But he's not known to be a grass burner compared to the really quick players in the league, and the metrics from Saturday prove it.

No there's not, I went back to 2015 and every year is represented besides 2018 where no one broke the 2.9 barrier. Even if we're saying that players get quicker in an AFL system which isn't necessarily a guarantee since endurance is more of a focus than speed, then that also applies to Finn.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

First, that’s awesome that Finn is getting those times, it’s a credit to him. He’s a very hard worker, which is why I think he will make it.

Every player will improve after their draft year though. They get into an elite coaching system once they’re on a list. I know a college football coach in the US, and it’s similar in his world.

But it proves the point a bit, that while players improve with training, their baseline at the combine isn’t equal so the same improvements don’t yield equal results. Finn was quick, now he's quicker.

It’s why the testing is so important to teams when they consider options. It gives them an idea of where players strengths are.

If you have great agility for example, then speed isn’t as important. Weddle is amazing because he has crazy agility to go with his speed, like Callaghan from GWS does. When those guys put on the afterburners and start carving through traffic, it's insane to watch.

Never said Finn was slow just to be clear. He's not, and he wasn't as a junior. But poll the Hawks membership asking who our fastest player is, and it won't be him that gets the most votes. AFL wide it would be no different.

Finn went to a professional, which I know there are a few, but there aren’t a lot. Who do.

The AFL and it’s natural club pre seasons improve a player immensely when they come in, as a player, person & athlete. But he’s done that and more with this stuff. His times and top speed shows he is physically very quick. Which was the whole point.

He’s obviously a freak athlete with his endurance being one of the best in the competition and his agility is pretty good aswell and needs to be with the way he tags.

Those you mentioned, Weddle and Callaghan are super impressive to watch with ball in hand. But look quicker with it than without it. Finn is the opposite. Which is more so as mentioned his mental switch and how quickly he makes decisions. But also comes down to purely confidence once he has the ball to go for a run. I haven’t see it much, but I’ve atleast seen it happen.

Polls aren’t ever a good way to judge things, by fans of clubs or as a whole. Just look at big footy polls for starters. Players would just have blokes like Nick Daicos, Charlie Cameron etc as the “fastest”. The average afl fans opinions are extremely casual.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Finn's real test will be in 2 weeks.

Absolutely!