Which players have we Overated/underated

[Dallas1083]

Overrated:
Ladson - I admit I've never been his biggest fan - just doesn't do enough in most games
Schoenmakers - too many costly turnovers
Whitecross - gets caught with the ball too often, still not sure what his role is
Bateman - has declined quite a bit in two years

Underrated:
Moss - still think he has something to offer, needs 3-4 games in a row next year to see if he has a future
JKT - didn't think he did much wrong
Muston - deserved more chances this year
Young - damaging player, just needs to become a bit more consistent across four quarters
Gibson - I thought he was close to our best player in the last month. Really good pickup

 

[NDFCHFC2]

Once again you're an ignoramus, if you're going to make outlandish comments, at least back them up with stats.

He averages .2 less goals than Cyril this year and he also avgs more goals than Peterson this year, 1.2 vs 0.8

Cyril 1.4 vs Hooper 1.2 goals per game.
Peterson 0.8 vs Hooper 1.2

In regards to tackles.

Cyril 4.9 vs Hooper 4.2
Peterson 3.1 vs Hooper 4.2

This is all coming from a half fit player that did no pre season, Your lack of football knowledge astounds me.

Stats alone can be useless. Tell me how many of Hoopers tackles resulted in turnovers and how many Holding the Ball? and compare that to Peterson and Rioli. A tackle can be useless if it doesnt cause a turnover. It is pointless debating Hoopers worth if you cant see he is a waste of time then good luck to you. I grew up with players that would have 10 times the skill and pace that Hooper does not to mention more ticker. And he has a proven dodgy body...I would have rather picked up Troy Taylor but Richmond did instead, then Hawks took Hooper. What a mistake!

 

[dipper86]

Stats alone can be useless. Tell me how many of Hoopers tackles resulted in turnovers and how many Holding the Ball? and compare that to Peterson and Rioli. A tackle can be useless if it doesnt cause a turnover. It is pointless debating Hoopers worth if you cant see he is a waste of time then good luck to you. I grew up with players that would have 10 times the skill and pace that Hooper does not to mention more ticker. And he has a proven dodgy body...I would have rather picked up Troy Taylor but Richmond did instead, then Hawks took Hooper. What a mistake!

You are Hilarious......... you stated he doesn't kick goals, I provided stats that he avg's more goals than Peterson and .2 less than Rioli, you said he can't tackle and is a shocking defensive forward, I provided stats that said he avgs more tackles than Peterson and a little less than Rioli not to mention the fact that when he has played and provided forward pressure he makes us a better team with a 5 win 1 loss record......... would you like to go on 1 %'s now he avgs more than Peterson, 5.2 vs 3.8 while Rioli avgs .1 more than Hooper. 5.2 vs 5.3.

Hoopers forward pressure has resulted in turnovers, he has been playing as a deep defensive forward, and is getting the majority of his tackles in our forward line, that is what you call providing forward pressure, when given a role like playing on Harry O'brien, he kept him to a modest possession count and Harry didn't have any influence on the game which is contrast to the brilliant year he is currently having.

The only thing you have provided in your argument is baseless comments about absolutely nothing, try again you lightweight.

 

[NDFCHFC2]

You are Hilarious......... you stated he doesn't kick goals, I provided stats that he avg's more goals than Peterson and .2 less than Rioli, you said he can't tackle and is a shocking defensive forward, I provided stats that said he avgs more tackles than Peterson and a little less than Rioli not to mention the fact that when he has played and provided forward pressure he makes us a better team with a 5 win 1 loss record......... would you like to go on 1 %'s now he avgs more than Peterson, 5.2 vs 3.8 while Rioli avgs .1 more than Hooper. 5.2 vs 5.3.

Hoopers forward pressure has resulted in turnovers, he has been playing as a deep defensive forward, and is getting the majority of his tackles in our forward line, that is what you call providing forward pressure, when given a role like playing on Harry O'brien, he kept him to a modest possession count and Harry didn't have any influence on the game which is contrast to the brilliant year he is currently having.

The only thing you have provided in your argument is baseless comments about absolutely nothing, try again you lightweight.

Your useless stats provide nothing. The only stat I need is that he played only 6 games allyear and at least one of them he went down in the first 5 minutes. That is not acceptable from a bloke who has been in the AFL system for years. His body problems will only get worse too as he is getting older by the day. He already has the body of a 50 year old. I will happily eat my words if he manages to mend his frame and play a lot more games next year, but I cant see that happening. It was worth a punt for 1 year MAYBE? but its time for some fresh blood to get a chance instead of a proven dissappointment getting yet another chance. He has already had so many chances with BL and couldnt cement his place, now he got another this year, and now people want to give the old warhorse another chance, unbelievable.
At best rookie him and make him earn it if he deserves it! If he doesnt breakdown.

 

[dipper86]

Your useless stats provide nothing. The only stat I need is that he played only 6 games allyear and at least one of them he went down in the first 5 minutes. That is not acceptable from a bloke who has been in the AFL system for years. His body problems will only get worse too as he is getting older by the day. He already has the body of a 50 year old. I will happily eat my words if he manages to mend his frame and play a lot more games next year, but I cant see that happening. It was worth a punt for 1 year MAYBE? but its time for some fresh blood to get a chance instead of a proven dissappointment getting yet another chance. He has already had so many chances with BL and couldnt cement his place, now he got another this year, and now people want to give the old warhorse another chance, unbelievable.
At best rookie him and make him earn it if he deserves it! If he doesnt breakdown.

Hahaha No No, They are only useless stats because they proved your baseless comments wrong. Yes i agree he's been injured but we don't have anything better than him apart from Cyril (who is now being used in the midfield) a forward pocket at the feet of Franklin and Roughead that provides forward pressure who is quick aggressive, likes to kick a goal and can tackle. He's only 22 and didn't do a pre season, and your making him out to be some old player in the twilight of his career, As for Brisbane his talent or form or even injuries had nothing to do with why he was cut he had discipline issues which now look like they have been rectified.

Keep trying, its quite laughable...... your knowledge is non existent.

 

[NDFCHFC2]

Hahaha No No, They are only useless stats because they proved your baseless comments wrong. Yes i agree he's been injured but we don't have anything better than him apart from Cyril (who is now being used in the midfield) a forward pocket at the feet of Franklin and Roughead that provides forward pressure who is quick aggressive, likes to kick a goal and can tackle. He's only 22 and didn't do a pre season, and your making him out to be some old player in the twilight of his career, As for Brisbane his talent or form or even injuries had nothing to do with why he was cut he had discipline issues which now look like they have been rectified.

Keep trying, its quite laughable...... your knowledge is non existent.

My knowledge is unsurpassed! Yes Hawthorn may not have a better bloke for his job but so what! There are 100s of blokes better around that could be drafted into the team. You dont seem to be able to understand that prev sentence at all. Recruitment officers are payed to identify players with the ability to take his spot. If they cant do the job they should find someone who can. I could name 100 better players than Rhan Hooper.

 

[dipper86]

My knowledge is unsurpassed! Yes Hawthorn may not have a better bloke for his job but so what! There are 100s of blokes better around that could be drafted into the team. You dont seem to be able to understand that prev sentence at all. Recruitment officers are payed to identify players with the ability to take his spot. If they cant do the job they should find someone who can. I could name 100 better players than Rhan Hooper.

No No your knowledge is average at best, was there a better player in the draft at pick 58 last year, a forward pocket player that is (taking into account we pick on a needs basis).....You say Troy Taylor, pity he went at pick 51 and managed 4 games at a club that was just fielding youngsters, The point is mute either way......... perhaps we can also dump Cam Peterson who is older than Hooper, who like Hooper suffered through injury and discipline issues for 5 years and has only just now managed to string games together, Hooper wasn't a 1 year investment we knew when we picked him up his body wasn't right and that it would take some time for him to get over his injuries, in his 6 games with limited preparation he showed more than enough to say that he is going to be a valuable player in our side.

 

[trickynat]

Why don't we just line them all up in Fed Square and stone em all!

Gee some of you people are pretty harsh towards players who put their bodies on the line for our football club! You can probably see why travis Tuck had depression problems, he probably read the forums last year when everyone was having a go at him and other players!

Those who are saying Young, Guerra and even Hooper are overrated pull your heads in! Young and Goo are probably two of our most important players, Goo ha the responsibility to set up play the most so occasionally he is going to make mistakes or get caught - deal with it. Hooper will be alright give him a pre-season.

 

[Messenger]

Why don't we just line them all up in Fed Square and stone em all!

DO you mean the players or some of the posters?

 

[TheFourPillars]

DO you mean the players or some of the posters?

GOLD

 

[gibbo#1]

i think first things first. we have to get rid of the coach! clarko is such an ovrated coach it makes me sick in the guts!
we need a coach for the next 3-4 years to help us win another flag. we defently have the list to do it and i beleive clarko isnt the man to deliver us that gold mine.

 

[gibbo#1]

this year is a telling year for us, it could set up the next 4-5 years or it can distroy us.
last year we gave up kennedy who is a gun football player and we got burgoyne who is (28) we got gibson who is (26) and we gave our pick 9 away.
we need to get some good youth into the team and some quick leg speed. we need a player like danyle pierce, aron davey or stephhan hill.

and also to make hodge captian

 

[IBleedBrownNGold]

i think first things first. we have to get rid of the coach! clarko is such an ovrated coach it makes me sick in the guts!
we need a coach for the next 3-4 years to help us win another flag. we defently have the list to do it and i beleive clarko isnt the man to deliver us that gold mine.

Way to go. You say "get rid of the coach", who not only has already brought us a premiership, but you haven't actually informed us as to why you think (or what makes him) "overrated". Would you care to enlighten us with a suggestion as to who would be able to take us to premiership glory in the next 3-4 years, other than Clarko?

 

[gibbo#1]

We need to fix our list.

untoucheables:
Burgoyne, ellis, franklin, gibson, gilham, grimley, hodge, mitchell. murphy. renouf, rioli, roughead, sewell, shoey, stratton, young, birchell, bruest, lewis.

give a chance:
Baiely, tuck, suckling, lisle, hooper, peterson, skipper, jkt, milne.

trade bait:
Dowler, bateman, savage, morton, lasdon, taylor, shiels, whitex, brown, muston, moss gureea.

delist immediatly:
STOKES! AND CLARKSON!

keep he youngies that havent played yet for a bit longer.

 

[gibbo#1]

Way to go. You say "get rid of the coach", who not only has already brought us a premiership, but you haven't actually informed us as to why you think (or what makes him) "overrated". Would you care to enlighten us with a suggestion as to who would be able to take us to premiership glory in the next 3-4 years, other than Clarko?

i just believe that he wont take us to a premership because it seems that a few of the players dont respect him. i believe we try and work on leigh mathews who is a coach that delivers flags.

 

[gibbo#1]

We need to fix our list.

untoucheables:
Burgoyne, ellis, franklin, gibson, gilham, grimley, hodge, mitchell. murphy. renouf, rioli, roughead, sewell, shoey, stratton, young, birchell, bruest, lewis.

give a chance:
Baiely, tuck, suckling, lisle, hooper, peterson, skipper, jkt, milne.

trade bait:
Dowler, bateman, savage, morton, lasdon, taylor, shiels, whitex, brown, muston, moss.

delist immediatly:
STOKES! AND CLARKSON!

keep he youngies that havent played yet for a bit longer.

who ever we carnt trade, we delist asap! exept bateman we keep him if we dont trade him!

 

[IBleedBrownNGold]

i just believe that he wont take us to a premership because it seems that a few of the players dont respect him. i believe we try and work on leigh mathews who is a coach that delivers flags.

Leigh Mathews wont be coaching Hawthorn. He has already stated that ad finitum.

 

[gibbo#1]

Leigh Mathews wont be coaching Hawthorn. He has already stated that ad finitum.

we can get someone else, i love the hawks and to see us not winning another flag in the next couple of years with our list will be a 'missed chance'
i beleive if we had a malthouse or a roos or a bomba thomson we would of won the flag this year.
or maybe its our development staff that are no good, our last 4-5 players picked every week are not good. we dont have much depth like collingwood and geelong, and thats why we struggle most games. we get exposed easy.

buy getting hooper was a great idea so now rioli plays through the middle while hooper is our crumming forward. we need one more player that can break the lines. like a aaron davey type player.
everyone bags our backline but i believe in 1 to 2 years out backline will be great. stratton, gilham, gibson, murphy( who has improved heaps this year), shoey(will need bit more time) birch. we have enough talent there. we need some good youngsters in the team. dont worry bout tarrent, fraser and robbie campbell. what u think?

 

[IBleedBrownNGold]

we can get someone else, i love the hawks and to see us not winning another flag in the next couple of years with our list will be a 'missed chance'
i beleive if we had a malthouse or a roos or a bomba thomson we would of won the flag this year.
or maybe its our development staff that are no good, our last 4-5 players picked every week are not good. we dont have much depth like collingwood and geelong, and thats why we struggle most games. we get exposed easy.

buy getting hooper was a great idea so now rioli plays through the middle while hooper is our crumming forward. we need one more player that can break the lines. like a aaron davey type player.
everyone bags our backline but i believe in 1 to 2 years out backline will be great. stratton, gilham, gibson, murphy( who has improved heaps this year), shoey(will need bit more time) birch. we have enough talent there. we need some good youngsters in the team. dont worry bout tarrent, fraser and robbie campbell. what u think?

You make some good points about our players and the kind of players we need (quick outside, line breaker). Player development takes time, as does depth building. Players like Schoenmakers, Shiels, Whitecross need time to develop and find their spot. We need a stronger marker in the backline, so recruiting in this area would be good (as I've said in other threads).

But I don't think getting rid of the coach is going to help us. We could probably do with some more experienced/better assistant coaches. That's where we are struggling, and that is the main coaching difference since our last flag. Clarko is building this team, so we shouldn't get rid of him just yet.

 

[Franko Armani]

Overrated - our entire midfield.

Why? - don't win many clearances or contested ball in the middle of the ground & even when they do they end up turning it over more often than not.

Result? - opposition midfield win ball cleanly to free player (our midfield is still fumbling the ball/attempting to tackle or win the ball they just lost again leaving a couple of opponents free space) easy kick into FWD50, huge pressure on our defence whom actually do a fantastic job (this year) considering how often & easily this happens.

Due to our midfielders astonishing inability to cleanly pass/receive & pick up a loose ball, you will find extensive midfield battles occur even against young, small bodied, inexperienced & rubbish opposition. Eventually our forwards become so concerned that if not for some Solo Cyril Rioli brilliance the footy will never get inside our FWD50 that they all move up into the midfield & are more often than not the same players that bring the ball back down the ground into our FWD (albeit empty!)50.

How many times did we see Buddy, Osborne, Whitecross, Rioli, Peterson with the ball on the HFF with an empty 50 ahead of them!

Our midfield desperately needs some clean hands, clean disposal, players that can outmuscle the opposition and win some clean footy in the middle of the ground. Apart from the odd smooth move from Burgoyne this year (didn't happen nearly near enough) or brute force clearance from Hodge we really don't have any of our mids winning the ball cleanly in the middle and delivering the ball nicely into our 50. We are always, I repeat Always under extreme pressure!! Teams like Geelong do not have this problem with their midfielders. If they did they would be only winning as many games as us.

Our midfield cannot kick goals on the run.

 

[Slattery_20]

How much faith does anyone really have in the Rhan-away train?

22, hasn't cemented a spot, seems to carry injuries a lot, reputedly acted like a bit of a prat at Brissie.
There's definitely talent there. But surely he's a risk that he won't fulfil that, based on what he's done so far.

 

[Cynic]

Over
Birchall - Seems stuck in that he is unable to either step up as a midfielder or be able to play a defensive role
Lewis - A vanilla midfielder that wins to much of his disposal as an outside player but doesn't kick enough goals or deliver the ball well enough to be an outside player
Renouf - Seems to have excited us on his mobility and skills (Particulary his marking) but his ruckwork is incredibly worrying to me.

Under
Skipper - Has gone from a emergency player to being a good around the ground player and is just as good as Renouf in the ruck if not better
Murphy - Has been getting the respect he deserves recently but now not only is he beating his opponent he's also starting to take the game on
Stratton - Gone from a mature aged draftee to a best 22 defender and looks like a future stalwart

 

[ZAD1]

I think that our whole team is overrated. Look at the odds for the majority of our games. It's ridiculous. How we were favourite over Freo i don't know.

 

[trickynat]

Overrated - our entire midfield.

Why? - don't win many clearances or contested ball in the middle of the ground & even when they do they end up turning it over more often than not.

Result? - opposition midfield win ball cleanly to free player (our midfield is still fumbling the ball/attempting to tackle or win the ball they just lost again leaving a couple of opponents free space) easy kick into FWD50, huge pressure on our defence whom actually do a fantastic job (this year) considering how often & easily this happens.

Due to our midfielders astonishing inability to cleanly pass/receive & pick up a loose ball, you will find extensive midfield battles occur even against young, small bodied, inexperienced & rubbish opposition. Eventually our forwards become so concerned that if not for some Solo Cyril Rioli brilliance the footy will never get inside our FWD50 that they all move up into the midfield & are more often than not the same players that bring the ball back down the ground into our FWD (albeit empty!)50.

How many times did we see Buddy, Osborne, Whitecross, Rioli, Peterson with the ball on the HFF with an empty 50 ahead of them!

Our midfield desperately needs some clean hands, clean disposal, players that can outmuscle the opposition and win some clean footy in the middle of the ground. Apart from the odd smooth move from Burgoyne this year (didn't happen nearly near enough) or brute force clearance from Hodge we really don't have any of our mids winning the ball cleanly in the middle and delivering the ball nicely into our 50. We are always, I repeat Always under extreme pressure!! Teams like Geelong do not have this problem with their midfielders. If they did they would be only winning as many games as us.

Our midfield cannot kick goals on the run.

In some ways I agree - especially goal scoring ability of our mid fielders - down compared to other teams, you would be lucky if Hodge, Sewell or Mitchell would kick a goal between them in a game, Hodge is shocking set shot for goal - we have a go at Roughie but I think Hodge set shot results are worse. Lewis is our only midfielder who has kicked a few goals.

Our mids have lost the battle this year as our ruckmen have been against it all year, with Renouf on his own early in the year with Hodge and Roughie helping out.

I personally believe our backs had great years except for the Port game where they tore us a new one - especially Schultz. They have been up against it as the clearances from the centre and around the game we generally lost which put more pressure on our backs. The biggest dissapointment was against Freo last week when we won the clearances and inside 50"s but lost the game!

Our structure in the forward line only worked when we got the ball in quickly with long kicks to Buddy and Roughie one out, if the opposition had time to get men back those two were outnumbered so much they could only win 25% of possession. Look back to 08 and remember how many marks they both got leading out from the square to the 50, we need to get back to that style again and if they are outnumbered well there has to be spare forwards unmarked somewhere!

Our list is not over rated - our efforts were sometimes not up to standard!

 

[WillowSF]

In no particular order I think our overrated players are:

Roughead (Is still a good player but after two years of so-so form is not the superstar I had hoped. His body language during games is troublesome and he goes missing for extended periods leaving Buddy to run the forward line single-handedly.)

Ellis (Outside of the 08 Grand Final I just haven't seen Xavier make much of an impact in games. Although he was better towards the end of this season. His disposal generally lacks penetration.)

Ladson (Was a serviceable link man in 2007/2008 but has dropped off badly. Much like Ellis he has no physical presence. How he was kept over Kennedy and Mcglynn last year is puzzling.)

Hooper (Has done nothing this year to suggest he's going to be a permanent senior player. Simply does not get the footy.)

Birchall (Strong runner and a good kick but he has several glaring weaknesses. 1. Refuses to make body contact.; 2 Cannot kick on his right side; 3 Is far too loose.)

Burgoyne (Was a solid contributor and got better during the season but is not the dominating mid-field player that he was when at Port Adelaide. Perhaps with a full pre-season he will be that player. Again, in the context of how Kennedy and McGlynn has progressed at Sydney you would have to say in the long term that bringing him in and losing those two is going to be a net loss for the club. To his credit we probably would not have made the finals this year without Shaun.)

I'd like Hodge to be named Captain with Buddy Vice Captain in 2011.