Which team out of Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth? Part 2

[Jeremias]

You brought up Dow not me.

Yes. I did.

Now, instead of having a fit because someone chose to bring a bit of balance to your ridiculous ‘ratings’, perhaps have a re-read.

See if that helps you understand why I brought him up.

If not, take a deep breath and re-read it again. It’s not complex but some can take a bit longer than others. I get it.

I’ll reiterate. I wasn’t comparing the two as players. Hope that helps but I doubt it.

 

[Philhawk]

Supporters always have a bit of rose tinted glasses when assessing their own players.

The question was asked earlier in this thread about the Hawks “top end talent”.

Again, the proof will be in the pudding once we start competing in the business end of finals.

Others might not agree, but Lewis has the potential to be classified under that category if he can get his body fit.

 

[Nugett]

Performed better than Fogarty last year (production) although has missed a chunk of 2024. The main point would be he is a better talent.

Josh Ward is a much more talented footballer than Dow is, if you can’t see that then I’m not sure you should bother.

All players have talent and it’s a spectrum of where that talent sits, ceiling v floor and an average.

Screaming bias because you aren’t getting the point is quite funny.

“cool the jets” funny.

Mitch Lewis has the potential and talent to be a top level key forward, hence the rating, and has proved so far that talent to be right. His continuity, consistency and long term production is yet to be seen and yet to be done, which is why it isn’t completely “he is” and why it’s “he could be”. Not entirely hard to see. You’re fighting shadows.

You make Lewis out, as if he marks like Dunstall, kicks like Peter Hudson, tackles like Rioli, has the toughness of Derm, the versatility of Roughhead and the flamboyance of Franklin.

The truth is, he is more like Nathan Thompson, a good solid player when fit. Chol has gone past him this year as our number 1 forward. At the moment, he could be struggling to be our 2nd best forward. He really needs to have a consistent couple of seasons.

 

[Nugett]

Is he?

Based on anything other than the vibe?



At this point you’ve just got to shake your head and laugh.

I wasn’t comparing the two as talents.



Kind of ironic from someone who thought I was comparing Dow to Ward, no?

And not screaming. Laughing.



I’m not the one leaning into intangibles like potential and, well, vibe.

But then again I’m not the Hawthorn supporter here so whether he does or he doesn’t isn’t of huge consequence.

I get you’re hopeful. Sometimes as fans hope is all we have.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Yes. I did.

Now, instead of having a fit because someone chose to bring a bit of balance to your ridiculous ‘ratings’, perhaps have a re-read.

See if that helps you understand why I brought him up.

If not, take a deep breath and re-read it again. It’s not complex but some can take a bit longer than others. I get it.

I’ll reiterate. I wasn’t comparing the two as players. Hope that helps but I doubt it.

The fact is you’re arguing a different point to what my “claim” was.

The topic is talent and potential, which is a subjective case, although if you talk through what players strengths and weaknesses are you can make a decent point, in this case you also bring in production to suggest what they’ve shown to back up the claim, whether a smaller sample size or bigger.

It isn’t really hard at all to understand this but this is what you’re continually missing.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Supporters always have a bit of rose tinted glasses when assessing their own players.

The question was asked earlier in this thread about the Hawks “top end talent”.

Again, the proof will be in the pudding once we start competing in the business end of finals.

Others might not agree, but Lewis has the potential to be classified under that category if he can get his body fit.

I would say the Crows and North have a few in that S grade bracket too, it’s not just a Hawthorn thing.

North - LDU, Sheezel, Wardlaw, Larkey just to name a few

Adelaide - Thilthorpe, Rachele, Rankine.

And yes he does and that was the point of the profile.

No one suggests he’s there yet, Thilthorpe would be one I think could get to that point too, but he’s even further off production wise.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

You make Lewis out, as if he marks like Dunstall, kicks like Peter Hudson, tackles like Rioli, has the toughness of Derm, the versatility of Roughhead and the flamboyance of Franklin.

The truth is, he is more like Nathan Thompson, a good solid player when fit. Chol has gone past him this year as our number 1 forward. At the moment, he could be struggling to be our 2nd best forward. He really needs to have a consistent couple of seasons.

What are you on about

“Good solid player when fit” shows about as much I need to know.

Chol has played worse than he would as a 2nd forward because he’s a 2nd tall and not suited to the number one.

He is easily Hawthorns best forward when fit.

Is this brads alt?

 

[Nugett]

What are you on about

“Good solid player when fit” shows about as much I need to know.

Chol has played worse than he would as a 2nd forward because he’s a 2nd tall and not suited to the number one.

He is easily Hawthorns best forward when fit.

Is this brads alt?

Even when “fit” this year Lewis was pretty ordinary. Our current forward line is functioning the best it has in years Based on performance I think you are selling Chol a bit short. Chol has been playing exceptionally well, Something I have been pleasantly surprised with. Who would you replace in our current forward set up to bring Lewis in?

 

[Jeremias]

It isn’t really hard at all to understand this but this is what you’re continually missing.

As of last post you thought I was comparing Dow to Ward, so I’m not sure you’re in any position to suggest anyone is missing anything.

Every single argument you’ve made in support of Lewis being a potential superstar is based on very little more than a vibe.

A vibe which is clearly centred around him playing for Hawthorn.

That much is clear because you’ve not afforded the same leniency to any other underperforming player who has produced at a similar level to him at a different club.

It’s fine to have a level of bias attached to your posting. We all do.

But it’s embarrassing to even try suggest that you don’t. It’s obvious to everyone including other Hawthorn supporters here.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

Dewyyyyy How many superstars (actual not potential) are playing across the whole competition right now?
How many more do you reckon are potential superstars?

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Dewyyyyy How many superstars (actual not potential) are playing across the whole competition right now?
How many more do you reckon are potential superstars?

This would take a while. But there’d be a fair few potential superstars but in terms of superstars, it’s an ever changing and subjective question. You ask 5 people and they’ll probably have different descriptives.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Even when “fit” this year Lewis was pretty ordinary. Our current forward line is functioning the best it has in years Based on performance I think you are selling Chol a bit short. Chol has been playing exceptionally well, Something I have been pleasantly surprised with. Who would you replace in our current forward set up to bring Lewis in?

Lewis played injured in the first few games. Still dealing with his knee, as is Breust with his groin.

Chol performs better with other talls in Dear and Gunston because he isn’t the sole 1. He also isn’t the best when he’s one out deep and is better leading at the ball and jumping at it. He has done well.

The synergy of the forward 50 has been good, but key for me has been the pressure Dear and Chol apply, the high half forwards workrate and Lewis back in will improve this as a whole as it will free up Chol and Dear more.

Gunston would go out, and I would think they’d rotate he and Dear with Chol & Lewis the main two. Gunston was poor against Richmond, and his role is still as an experienced piece of depth.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

As of last post you thought I was comparing Dow to Ward, so I’m not sure you’re in any position to suggest anyone is missing anything.

Every single argument you’ve made in support of Lewis being a potential superstar is based on very little more than a vibe.

A vibe which is clearly centred around him playing for Hawthorn.

That much is clear because you’ve not afforded the same leniency to any other underperforming player who has produced at a similar level to him at a different club.

It’s fine to have a level of bias attached to your posting. We all do.

But it’s embarrassing to even try suggest that you don’t. It’s obvious to everyone including other Hawthorn supporters here.

You brought up Dow and said “I once thought he had superstar potential” whether sarcastic or not, you brought this up whilst also bringing up Ward.

My take on Lewis and his capacity is based off the talent he has, part of the production he’s shown it with and going through and assessing, this in the sense (strengths, weaknesses, improvements, and generally picking apart his ‘game’).

As just mentioned.

I would say the Crows and North have a few in that S grade bracket too, it’s not just a Hawthorn thing.

North - LDU, Sheezel, Wardlaw, Larkey just to name a few

Adelaide - Thilthorpe, Rachele, Rankine.

And yes he does and that was the point of the profile.

No one suggests he’s there yet, Thilthorpe would be one I think could get to that point too, but he’s even further off production wise.

Thilthorpe is an example here, despite being much younger, of someone who hasn’t shown himself to be at a superstar level, but has the talent to be that.

Charlie Curnow was one who was that.

So it isn’t “not affording leniency or providing the same assessments for other clubs” it is just the profile I was asked for and the topic of discussion at the time.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

This would take a while. But there’d be a fair few potential superstars but in terms of superstars, it’s an ever changing and subjective question. You ask 5 people and they’ll probably have different descriptives.

Well yeah, I thought it was implied I was after your perspective.
Personally, I'd have said maybe 30-40. Average of 2 a team, but of course some teams have more than others. Between the 3 of us we don't have 1 for example.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Well yeah, I thought it was implied I was after your perspective.
Personally, I'd have said maybe 30-40. Average of 2 a team, but of course some teams have more than others. Between the 3 of us we don't have 1 for example.

I would agree, and I would say every team has a handful that have the potential to become that.

2-3 a side, some teams have more top end talent but less depth and spread and visa versa.

Someone suggesting Reid could be a superstar is a key part of this, he will and I’m confident saying that. But he is not even close to being that production wise.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

I would agree, and I would say every team has a handful that have the potential to become that.

2-3 a side, some teams have more top end talent but less depth and spread and visa versa.

Someone suggesting Reid could be a superstar is a key part of this, he will and I’m confident saying that. But he is not even close to being that production wise.

Yeah it's the potential thing that gets me, I thought maybe you had a looser definition of superstar.
Like I see it with Reid, watch a couple of games and it sticks out like dogsballs. Just a matter of time.
But Mitch Lewis? Even Dylan Moore, who I think is a fantastic player, I can't really picture him as lifting his game to another "superstar" level.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Yeah it's the potential thing that gets me, I thought maybe you had a looser definition of superstar.
Like I see it with Reid, watch a couple of games and it sticks out like dogsballs. Just a matter of time.
But Mitch Lewis? Even Dylan Moore, who I think is a fantastic player, I can't really picture him as lifting his game to another "superstar" level.

I take it as a role thing, so Moore is a good example. He is probably the best at his role and is good at multiple other roles, still has growth in his game and is already at a 20 and 2 type player.

Not many are capable of 25-30 and kicking 5 like he did a few weeks back.

But the point with Reid, is you can see it, but I can see it with Lewis too. If you look at a game he’s taken and dominated, or a patch which I pointed out. He’s capable of it, but his reasoning is different to Reid who just needs time as he’s young.

I would say my definition is looser than others but it isn’t “loose” it is like the top few in their roles, although more midfielders are still considered superstars.

 

[LoBu]

Well yeah, I thought it was implied I was after your perspective.
Personally, I'd have said maybe 30-40. Average of 2 a team, but of course some teams have more than others. Between the 3 of us we don't have 1 for example.

I'd argue that Rankine has broken out into superstar status, will make AA this year, had been ranked as top 2 player in the comp until he was injured (champion data).

Happy to let the season play out though before arguing too hard, just as I think the jury is still out on who's rebuild is going better vs right now ladder position and form.

Saying Hawthorn is better than Adelaide this year because they beat us is like saying Adelaide is better than Carlton because we beat them.

 

[Jeremias]

You brought up Dow and said “I once thought he had superstar potential” whether sarcastic or not, you brought this up whilst also bringing up Ward.

No shit.

It was to demonstrate that we all have our blind spots.

I had it with Dow; you clearly have it with Lewis (not to mention other Hawks).

I’ve since let it go. I wonder how long you’ll take.

How are you not getting something so straightforward?

My take on Lewis and his capacity is based off the talent he has, part of the production he’s shown it with and going through and assessing, this in the sense (strengths, weaknesses, improvements, and generally picking apart his ‘game’).

Your take on Lewis is entirely based off the colours he wears.

It’s blatantly obvious.

Why else would you be twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to find ways to convince yourself that he’s better than a number of players I’ve mentioned?

 

[Dewyyyyy]

No shit.

It was to demonstrate that we all have our blind spots.

I had it with Dow; you clearly have it with Lewis (not to mention other Hawks).

I’ve since let it go. I wonder how long you’ll take.

How are you not getting something so straightforward?



Your take on Lewis is entirely based off the colours he wears.

It’s blatantly obvious.

Why else would you be twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to find ways to convince yourself that he’s better than a number of players I’ve mentioned?

Bro Dow never had that level of talent. Your point is laughable.

The fact is you’re arguing a completely different point and not getting mine, which is why you’re confused.

And no it isn’t, you keep going at this bias take and you’re just wrong.

Considering you misunderstood the point the first time, and have since continually missed the point maybe you should try harder to understand a simple fact.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I'd argue that Rankine has broken out into superstar status, will make AA this year, had been ranked as top 2 player in the comp until he was injured (champion data).

Happy to let the season play out though before arguing too hard, just as I think the jury is still out on who's rebuild is going better vs right now ladder position and form.

Saying Hawthorn is better than Adelaide this year because they beat us is like saying Adelaide is better than Carlton because we beat them.

Rankine would be there or very close, king was huge on him. I think LDU/Sheezel aren’t far off, neither are Day or Moore. I think Rachele was getting there but has had a blip recently, Dawson is one but he’s 27.

I think the reason the discussion is concurrent is that all 3 teams haven’t made finals yet, that’ll be key, but it is part in performance but how much of that is youth. Although you’ll still have people arguing x youth is better even if x team wins a final, or flag.

Using a singular metric is pointless, whether stats, who beat who or who is higher, better to use multiple.

 

[Jeremias]

Bro Dow never had that level of talent. Your point is laughable.

And here you are again falling back on a comparison that literally was not made.

Yet you have the gall to suggest you're the misunderstood one.

You are really, really struggling now. Clutching at straws I believe is the term.

All because someone chose to challenge your thoughts on potential superstar Mitch Lewis. Just imagine!

 

[Dewyyyyy]

And here you are again falling back on a comparison that literally was not made.

Yet you have the gall to suggest you're the misunderstood one.

You are really, really struggling now. Clutching at straws I believe is the term.

All because someone chose to challenge your thoughts on potential superstar Mitch Lewis. Just imagine!

I think you’re confusing yourself.

You suggested you thinking Dow was at that level of had x amount of talent and that it was your bias.

You are screaming bloody murder that to suggest Mitch Lewis has the talent to become a superstar, in your words, just imagine

You’re fighting shadows all over the fact you’ve missed the point and you’re confusing yourself.

 

[Jeremias]

I think you’re confusing yourself.

No. I've been really clear all throughout.

Mitch Lewis is not a superstar and at 26 the only thing that may make you think otherwise or that he could become one is a vibe.

A vibe that - strangely enough - isn't afforded to other players who have produced just as much, if not more, yet don't wear Hawthorn colours.

Imagine my shock!

You suggested you thinking Dow was at that level of had x amount of talent and that it was your bias.

Yikes. Just admit you completely missed the point, Dom. Or, you know, bring up Josh Ward again and chase that tail.

 

[perplexed]

No. I've been really clear all throughout.

Mitch Lewis is not a superstar and at 26 the only thing that may make you think otherwise or that he could become one is a vibe.

A vibe that - strangely enough - isn't afforded to other players who have produced just as much, if not more, yet don't wear Hawthorn colours.

Imagine my shock!



Yikes. Just admit you completely missed the point, Dom. Or, you know, bring up Josh Ward again and chase that tail.

Is there some other thread you can troll in?

Everyone, bar you, understands what he means. Yes, his opinions are biased. He is hardly alone there.