Who is the best Key Defender of the 21st Century?

[Mr Meow]

What you are describing is a loose defender not a key defender. Rance was arguably the best loose defender considering how much he did it, but when McGovern played loose I think he was even better. The best loose defender in the game right now plays for my club I think.

Key defenders are accountable for their opponent. The best key defenders are accountable for the best key forwards. For peak rance period, that was usually Astbury taking the best key forward.

Having no stats on two key players though (lep and scarlo) really sucks though. Especially since I just feel like Scarlett is my pick.

Agreed and this is why I compared him to Stewart, who is also an outstanding loose defender but could not be considered a lockdown player. They are still very valuable but by definition a key defender should be 10/10 both at 1v1/lockdown work vs the best of the best AND elite intercepting/rebound ability.

 

[Caligo]

This reveals that you a) never actually watched Scarlett play, b) have a shocking memory or c) are desperately trying to throw mud and not even coming close. Rance was easily the worst 1v1 defender of anyone in the poll so the irony is that you're actually describing your own player.

I mostly agree but I don't think it is fair to say rance is the worst 1on1 defender of those available. He was elite at defending a particular sort of key forward (the highly mobile kind, exemplified by Buddy and Nick Reiwoldt). He would have done really well on Jack too but obviously never had to defend him. Didn't take the gorillas though, left that job to Astbury.

Rance is a great pick for a team of the century type situation where you need one mobile defender (in competition with Taylor and Gibson) but I wouldn't take him in a contest like this where you need someone who can mark Buddy but also mark Hawkins. Pretty tough job honestly.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Good one rub-a-dub. You don't rate Martin or Riewoldt either.
I don't think you understand how the game is played that well.

This has nothing to do with Rance or Richmond.

Scarlett is the best pure and influential full back since SOS.

He was better for considerably longer than Rance

 

[Caligo]

Agreed and this is why I compared him to Stewart, who is also an outstanding loose defender but could not be considered a lockdown player. They are still very valuable but by definition a key defender should be 10/10 both at 1v1/lockdown work vs the best of the best AND elite intercepting/rebound ability.

We are in lockstep.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

What you are describing is a loose defender not a key defender. Rance was arguably the best loose defender considering how much he did it, but when McGovern played loose I think he was even better. The best loose defender in the game right now plays for my club I think.

Key defenders are accountable for their opponent. The best key defenders are accountable for the best key forwards. For peak rance period, that was usually Astbury taking the best key forward.

Having no stats on two key players though (lep and scarlo) really sucks though. Especially since I just feel like Scarlett is my pick.

If Rance was playing loose....how come he was involved in more 1 v 1 contests than all these other guys? I don't think that makes any sense at all. Astbury through most of his best seasons averaged about 3.5 1 v 1 contests per match, Rance averaged 5. Why would the opposition team direct the ball to Rance v a weaker forward more than Astbury v their best forward, especially seeing Astbury lost 1 v 1's at a higher rate than Rance?

Sicily is involved in about 2.5 1 v 1 contests per match. Jake Lever similar. Tom Stewart about 1.5. Rance mainly averaged around 5 x 1 v 1 contests per match. If he was playing a similar role to these other guys I listed here, he would be involved in a similar amount of 1 v 1's. Rance was a 100% legit key defender.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Always amusing to see the Richmond supporters lose their minds when people don't rate their player as the best in position.

Don't worry kiddos, you still have Dusty...

Especially losing to a Geelong player. It's a very weird paranoia Richmond posters have lol

 

[Caligo]

If Rance was playing loose....how come he was involved in more 1 v 1 contests than all these other guys? I don't think that makes any sense at all. Astbury through most of his best seasons averaged about 3.5 1 v 1 contests per match, Rance averaged 5. Why would the opposition team direct the ball to Rance v a weaker forward more than Astbury v their best forward, especially seeing Astbury lost 1 v 1's at a higher rate than Rance?

Sicily is involved in about 2.5 1 v 1 contests per match. Jake Lever similar. Tom Stewart about 1.5. Rance mainly averaged around 5 x 1 v 1 contests per match. If he was playing a similar role to these other guys I listed here, he would be involved in a similar amount of 1 v 1's. Rance was a 100% legit key defender.

Being a loose defender actually often means ending up in a 1on1. You see an unmarked Stevie J in the pocket as Duncan is running up a wing with the ball. Rance slides across to contest and gets a 1on1. That is a point on the stats sheet, but not really what we are talking about.

The fact that rance played loose and got a pretty big number of 1on1s probably says more about opposing forwards getting free and rance mopping up than it does about anything else. I don't think oppositions were directing the ball to rance (or mcgovern), I think those loose defenders were actively hunting contests or covering free forwards. They are interceptors.

I agree that I would still call him a key defender, because of the work he did on certain key forwards, but it is a continuum. He was more accountable than a Stewart or Sicily but less than a Weitering or Andrews. For this particular poll I want someone more accountable and versatile.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Agreed and this is why I compared him to Stewart, who is also an outstanding loose defender but could not be considered a lockdown player. They are still very valuable but by definition a key defender should be 10/10 both at 1v1/lockdown work vs the best of the best AND elite intercepting/rebound ability.

Lol, Rance is not even remotely comparable to Tom Stewart's role.

This is Stewart's defensive numbers:



This is Rance's defensive numbers:



Without wanting to demean anybody here for misunderstanding, it does amaze me sometimes what people convince themselves it true in the face of readily available facts to say otherwise.

 

[doppleganger]

'A clear gap' ? You've got to be joking. Rance revolutionised the game by guarding multiple players at once.

AKA not defending anyone.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Being a loose defender actually often means ending up in a 1on1. You see an unmarked Stevie J in the pocket as Duncan is running up a wing with the ball. Rance slides across to contest and gets a 1on1. That is a point on the stats sheet, but not really what we are talking about.

The fact that rance played loose and got a pretty big number of 1on1s probably says more about opposing forwards getting free and rance mopping up than it does about anything else. I don't think oppositions were directing the ball to rance (or mcgovern), I think those loose defenders were actively hunting contests or covering free forwards. They are interceptors.

I agree that I would still call him a key defender, because of the work he did on certain key forwards, but it is a continuum. He was more accountable than a Stewart or Sicily but less than a Weitering or Andrews. For this particular poll I want someone more accountable and versatile.

Honestly that just cannot be correct.

If you are in just about the most 1 v 1's of any prominent key defender, you cannot be playing "loose."

The teams use all sorts of formations from quarter to quarter, match to match. It depends on how they expect the ball to be brought in and who the opposition is likely to target most etc. The main key defender's job in modern footy is to get himself in line with the incoming ball and impact that contest, either by winning it, which Rance did at a very high rate, or spoiling the opponent which Rance did at an even higher rate. You are just getting confused because sometimes opposition teams push 1 or more forwards up around the ball and often teams choose to leave a defender loose in response. Richmond would sometimes leave Rance as the loose player but not any great deal more often than you would see say Weitering or Harris Andrews left without a direct opponent. Richmond were extremely confident leaving Rance one out v anybody due to his extreme speed for a key position player. If the ball comes down in a way that is a big advantage to the key forward then all of these key defenders are going to struggle with that, Rance included. But this was often the situation opposition teams feared most, Rance left 1 v 1 against their slower key forwards. He was way too quick for them and could therefore impact a lot more contests than his opponent could get to. In the case of someone as slippery as Franklin, different matter, but there weren't many key forwards who could move as well as him, in fact none.

This highlights package basically sums Rance up perfectly. Many times when you think he doesn't have an opponent, he does. He has just left them for dead with his speed and been able to impact a contest the opponent couldn't get to. This is a radically different concept to playing as a loose defender.

 

[Mr Meow]

Lol, Rance is not even remotely comparable to Tom Stewart's role.

This is Stewart's defensive numbers:

View attachment 1882557

This is Rance's defensive numbers:

View attachment 1882558

Without wanting to demean anybody here for misunderstanding, it does amaze me sometimes what people convince themselves it true in the face of readily available facts to say otherwise.

Holy s**t, Rance's 1v1 defensive numbers are worse than Stewart's? Thanks for this.

From his prime, two seasons at 25+ % and two others at 23+ % is really quite bad.

 

[Mr Meow]

Honestly that just cannot be correct.

If you are in just about the most 1 v 1's of any prominent key defender, you cannot be playing "loose."

The teams use all sorts of formations from quarter to quarter, match to match. It depends on how they expect the ball to be brought in and who the opposition is likely to target most etc. The main key defender's job in modern footy is to get himself in line with the incoming ball and impact that contest, either by winning it, which Rance did at a very high rate, or spoiling the opponent which Rance did at an even higher rate. You are just getting confused because sometimes opposition teams push 1 or more forwards up around the ball and often teams choose to leave a defender loose in response. Richmond would sometimes leave Rance as the loose player but not any great deal more often than you would see say Weitering or Harris Andrews left without a direct opponent. Richmond were extremely confident leaving Rance one out v anybody due to his extreme speed for a key position player. If the ball comes down in a way that is a big advantage to the key forward then all of these key defenders are going to struggle with that, Rance included. But this was often the situation opposition teams feared most, Rance left 1 v 1 against their slower key forwards. He was way too quick for them and could therefore impact a lot more contests than his opponent could get to. In the case of someone as slippery as Franklin, different matter, but there weren't many key forwards who could move as well as him, in fact none.

This highlights package basically sums Rance up perfectly. Many times when you think he doesn't have an opponent, he does. He has just left them for dead with his speed and been able to impact a contest the opponent couldn't get to. This is a radically different concept to playing as a loose defender.

Extremely confident leaving him one out with a defensive 1v1 loss rate often above 23% perhaps explains why their defence improved once Rance retired. And his averages were protected by retiring at 29 as opposed to 33-34. He'd have been a complete liability 1v1, even moreso, had he stayed on into his 30s. This finally happened to Scarlett when he was 33 in 2012 (hilarious that you try to use this season as a marker still), but to his credit a year earlier he was still elite in that regard. Maybe not at his 2003-2009 best, but still a step above Rance at 1v1 stopping power.

 

[doppleganger]

Extremely confident leaving him one out with a defensive 1v1 loss rate often above 23% perhaps explains why their defence improved once Rance retired.

That is the crucial point, Richmond were better WITHOUT Rance.

And his averages were protected by retiring at 29 as opposed to 33-34.

And the game changed dramatically from the early 2000s to the late 2010s.

Early 2000s teams avg under 300 disposals and 120 CPs per game.

Mid 2010s teams were closing in on 400 disposals and 150 CPs per game.

No surprise the Rance fluffer loves avgs and player ratings that just show Rance was busier than other actual key defenders.

Busier doesnt equal better.

He'd have been a complete liability 1v1, even moreso, had he stayed on into his 30s.

Rance was protected as Grimes/Astbury took the dangerous opposition forwards.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

How the * is anyone supposed to rate any Geelong player AA honour? Geelong 5 dynasty years 2007-11 30 AA selections. Hawthorn 5 dynasty years 2011-15 AA selections 13. Geelong won about 1 extra home and away game per season. Clubs played in same amount of Grand Finals, won same amount of flags.

Beyond laughable but it is good because the effect is all Geelong AA honours are near worthless, with more question marks on them than Franky Gorshin.

View attachment 1882484


And all other clubs AA selections become even more noteworthy because they had to get through the Geelong player bottleneck that is akin to a rodent plague.

Exactly, well put.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

AKA not defending anyone.

Yeah, he was lucky to a game wasn't he.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I am not even sure Rance was better than McGovern tbh.

 

[STPer18]

Rewatching Scarlett's old interview on Open Mike, they're saying 2007 finals series - three games zero goals conceded. Those kind of stats recorded anywhere?

 

[Noidnadroj]

Scarlett. And it's not even close IMO.

Rance was very good but I have a clear gap between the two.

Referencing certain statistics to try and downplay Scarlett's career is nothing short of embarrassing.
Disposals, contested possessions, tackles...please. Absolutely laughable.

So are you saying across his 200–games and 5 x AA Rance wasn’t good at stopping his opponent?

Let’s also keep in mind for a lot of Scarlett’s career Lonergan took the best forward - eg Buddy. So Scarlett was able to play the Tom Stewart type role not requiring elite defence. Rance very rarely had such luxuries.


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[Elmer_Hauser]

Rewatching Scarlett's old interview on Open Mike, they're saying 2007 finals series - three games zero goals conceded. Those kind of stats recorded anywhere?

SOS's 1995 Finals series is the only one that was better than Scarlett's 07 finals series imo (esp given the quality of forwards he played on and dismantled, Roger Merrett, Carey and GAS)

 

[Noidnadroj]

I had already mentioned the inside 50 discrepancy. Use your eyes.

You still haven't addressed Rance's terrible defensive loss % even sometimes in his AA seasons - compared to like for like players such as McGovern and Taylor. Given Scarlett was a better negator and 1v1 player than those two, it also means he was miles and miles above Rance at defending.

He repelled more attacks on the last line, hence the 5 seasons at 4+ rebound 50s a game compared to 1 for Rance (despite Scarlett's side conceding less inside 50s on average). Rance did more intercepting and spare man work up the field. So again as a pure defender Scarlett was better and his ball use was several levels above Rance. His effective disposal numbers would've easily surpassed Rance.

Terrible 1v1 % loss rate… can u publish those in comparison to others? Also include 1v1 win % rate if you can?

And probably make sure the 1v1 loss rate is collared against others taking the best KPF … Scarlett often avoided Buddy as Lonergan played on him … in fact Lonergan often took the best forward to allow Scarlett to free wheel, hence his low CP and high UP rate. This made sense as Scarlett was a better ball user and reader of the play than Lonergan … but it’s very relevant when assessing who was a better defender as Rance always took the oppo’s most dangerous forward.

Rance played on Buddy every single time they ever played each other.


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[Noidnadroj]

How the * is anyone supposed to rate any Geelong player AA honour? Geelong 5 dynasty years 2007-11 30 AA selections. Hawthorn 5 dynasty years 2011-15 AA selections 13. Geelong won about 1 extra home and away game per season. Clubs played in same amount of Grand Finals, won same amount of flags.

Beyond laughable but it is good because the effect is all Geelong AA honours are near worthless, with more question marks on them than Franky Gorshin.

View attachment 1882484


And all other clubs AA selections become even more noteworthy because they had to get through the Geelong player bottleneck that is akin to a rodent plague.

Tom Stewart a couple of years ago is the watermark … missed 6 games and finished 9th in Cat B&F ….. Sicily doesn’t miss a game and wins Hawks B&F and leads almost every defensive stat that exists…. AND plays on the oppo’s best forward. Congrats Stewart, here’s the jacket we prepared for you in February. Unlucky Sic … we just needed to see a little more blue and white in those stripes …..Laughable.


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[Cursed Cat]

So are you saying across his 200–games and 5 x AA Rance wasn’t good at stopping his opponent?

Let’s also keep in mind for a lot of Scarlett’s career Lonergan took the best forward - eg Buddy. So Scarlett was able to play the Tom Stewart type role not requiring elite defence. Rance very rarely had such luxuries.


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Matthew Scarlett had produced 12 seasons of quality key defensive football, beaten every conceivable opponent and re-defined the full back role by the time Tom Lonergan was tried as a key defender.

For Scarlett to re-invent his role while still being every bit as effective and influential that far into his career should be cause to further elevate his status.

 

[Mr Meow]

So are you saying across his 200–games and 5 x AA Rance wasn’t good at stopping his opponent?

Let’s also keep in mind for a lot of Scarlett’s career Lonergan took the best forward - eg Buddy. So Scarlett was able to play the Tom Stewart type role not requiring elite defence. Rance very rarely had such luxuries.


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Lonergan moved to defence in 2010. So 5 of Scarlett's 6 AA selections were in the classic full back position against opposition full forwards. 12 seasons taking the opposition's most dangerous forwards. Rance didn't even last 12 seasons in total.

In 2011 you can argue he played a Stewart type role really well and 2012 he didn't have the legs for it. The rest of his career he was far more of a full back than Rance ever was.

By the way, was it Rance or Grimes lining up against Waite in the 2013 and 2015 tight finals? The ones where he kicked 4 goals. Along with the Cox match, Rance's finals reverse Coleman numbers actually seem pretty dodgy. Roughead 3 goals in the 2018 QF too.

 

[Mr Meow]

Terrible 1v1 % loss rate… can u publish those in comparison to others? Also include 1v1 win % rate if you can?

And probably make sure the 1v1 loss rate is collared against others taking the best KPF … Scarlett often avoided Buddy as Lonergan played on him … in fact Lonergan often took the best forward to allow Scarlett to free wheel, hence his low CP and high UP rate. This made sense as Scarlett was a better ball user and reader of the play than Lonergan … but it’s very relevant when assessing who was a better defender as Rance always took the oppo’s most dangerous forward.

Rance played on Buddy every single time they ever played each other.


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None of this makes sense given 12 of Scarlett's 15 seasons did not even have Lonergan in defence. I mean there's not doing your research but you have to at least pretend that you have.

Harley and Taylor were the free interceptors during Scarlett's pomp. Mostly each key defender did a bit of both but Scarlett had the defensive 50 lockdown jobs.

 

[Caligo]

So are you saying across his 200–games and 5 x AA Rance wasn’t good at stopping his opponent?

Let’s also keep in mind for a lot of Scarlett’s career Lonergan took the best forward - eg Buddy. So Scarlett was able to play the Tom Stewart type role not requiring elite defence. Rance very rarely had such luxuries.


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Of course rance was very good 1on1. Anybody we are discussing is a gun. That is a given. We are talking about the best over 23 years.

Scarlet took the better key forward more often than lonergan did when both were selected from memory, but Geelong fans would know better. We both know rance usually didn't though.