Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[sr36]

Combination of both for arguments sake.

But it's not - it's local - it's Australians. Any discussion to limit the numbers is a discussion to limit Australian muslims giving birth or conversion to Islam by Australians - religious freedoms. It's absurd.

 

[Crankyhawk]

But it's not - it's local - it's Australians. Any discussion to limit the numbers is a discussion to limit Australian muslims giving birth or conversion to Islam by Australians - religious freedoms. It's absurd.

Limiting the numbers of a religion is akin to trying to limit the number of people who follow a particular afl team - pointless and impossible

 

[faible]

Limiting the numbers of a religion is akin to trying to limit the number of people who follow a particular afl team - pointless and impossible

AFL sides are easy, just exile them to the North Melbourne Sunday timeslots.

 

[Malifice]

The UK Muslim growth is very high. Would you be ok with that in australia?

Yes.

 

[10571z]

Yes.

Well many British aren’t happy with the direction the UK is going

 

[Chief]

Well many British aren’t happy with the direction the UK is going

In relation to the number of people who become Muslim?

 

[10571z]

In relation to the number of people who become Muslim?

The number of Muslims in the UK and how rapidly they are growing via all channels

 

[Chief]

The number of Muslims in the UK and how rapidly they are growing via all channels

What do you think would happen to you if an Islamic family moved next door?

 

[10571z]

What do you think would happen to you if an Islamic family moved next door?

Wouldn’t bother me. But that’s not what we are talking about.

 

[sr36]

The number of Muslims in the UK and how rapidly they are growing via all channels

It was 6.5% of the UK population in 2021

 

[10571z]

It was 6.5% of the UK population in 2021

2011 it was 4%,
2001 it was 3%
1991 it was 1.86%

 

[Chief]

Wouldn’t bother me. But that’s not what we are talking about.

So you wouldn't be bothered by a growing number of Australians becoming Muslim?

 

[Gethelred]

2011 it was 4%,
2001 it was 3%
1991 it was 1.86%

See, here's my issue.

I've done a little digging into this particular line of thought; the Wikipedia article on Islam in the UK has the following link credited with the statistic for a forward projection of a population of 13 million by 2050. That article - from the Daily Telegraph - has the following paragraph in it:

The UK also has one of the largest gaps in fertility rates between Muslims and non-Muslims, with Muslim women having an average of 2.9 children compared to the 1.8 had by non-Muslims.

This means that even if migration were to stop completely, the group's population share would rise by more than 3 per cent in the UK, as well as in France, Italy, and Belgium.

The paper suggests that if migration continues at the same rate but refugee movement stops, the UK will have the highest overall population of Muslims in the EU, at 13m, making up 16.7 per cent of the population.

Now, that to me looks an awful lot like Great Replacement rhetoric, 10571z, and this seems to be a similar end point to where you're going with this.

So, let's change tack a little; why do you have a problem/see an issue with the Islamic population of Australia rising?

 

[tandino]

2011 it was 4%,
2001 it was 3%
1991 it was 1.86%

At that rate of growth they'll be over 100% by the end of the century, which will be a cause of concern.

 

[10571z]

See, here's my issue.

I've done a little digging into this particular line of thought; the Wikipedia article on Islam in the UK has the following link credited with the statistic for a forward projection of a population of 13 million by 2050. That article - from the Daily Telegraph - has the following paragraph in it:

Now, that to me looks an awful lot like Great Replacement rhetoric, 10571z, and this seems to be a similar end point to where you're going with this.

So, let's change tack a little; why do you have a problem/see an issue with the Islamic population of Australia rising?

Why do I have a problem with it rising?

Would you be ok to live in a Islamic nation?

 

[10571z]

At that rate of growth they'll be over 100% by the end of the century, which will be a cause of concern.

It’s quite possible? Why is it not.

 

[sr36]

2011 it was 4%,
2001 it was 3%
1991 it was 1.86%

It's because they'reyounger than the average population. Assuming a lot of muslim raised kids remain muslim and conversions from outside Islam occur at the same rate, it'll continue to rise - even if you completely stopped immigartion from Islamic countries. What are you going to do, ban some Brits from having kids if they're the wrong religion? Ban Brits from converting to the religion of their choice?

 

[tandino]

It’s quite possible? Why is it not.

Well it would go against all we know about mathematics, which would be a big problem.

 

[10571z]

Well it would go against all we know about mathematics, which would be a big problem.

How so? It’s rising yearly. Where do you see it “stopping”

 

[tandino]

How so? It’s rising yearly. Where do you see it “stopping”

It won't go above 100%

 

[10571z]

It won't go above 100%

Can it reach 51%?

 

[10571z]

It's because refugees they'reyounger than the average population. Assuming a lot of muslim raised kids remain muslim and conversions from outside Islam occur at the same rate, it'll continue to rise - even if you completely stopped immigartion from Islamic countries. What are you going to do, ban some Brits from having kids if they're the wrong religion? Ban Brits from converting to the religion of their choice?

So you’ve resigned to the fact the UK will become an Islamic nation?

 

[Gethelred]

Why do I have a problem with it rising?

Would you be ok to live in a Islamic nation?

There's a bit of a problem with answering a question with another question; I could reply with - for example - another question again, such as asking you in turn if there's any danger of Australia becoming a purely Islamic nation?

But that strikes me as not being a part of improving the discourse, so with that in mind...

It depends what you mean by Islamic nation. If you mean a hard core Sharia law following, religious theocracy with corporal and capital punishment, then no I would not be okay to live in an Islamic nation (it's an, by the way. Islam starts with a vowel). But the funny thing about Islamic immigration: if these people - a lot of whom have immigrated through proper channels, aren't refugees; we don't actually bring in all that many refugees here - who are muslims actually wanted to live under Sharia law, wouldn't they be moving somewhere where it's already in place?

Why would they move here, where there isn't Sharia law and life is good and free - all the stuff we like about Australia - and they can live and practice their religion in peace and by and large be left alone, and try and bring in that kind of thing? Wouldn't that be somewhat akin to killing the golden goose?

There's also the fact that hard Wahhabist Islam is but a single branch of a broader religion, and Wahhabism is the problem overall. It's fundamentalist, it's regressive and repressive, and it's imported worldwide by Saudi Arabia on oil money. There are other strains of Islamic thought, and Islam can be as moderate as any religion can be; just, we're only rarely ever allowed to see it.

In my school library just last week - I'm a high school teacher - I saw a book about an Islamic girl whose parents wish she wouldn't wear her hijab, which was a preteen romance for teenage girls, written by a muslim woman. You've got the supposedly hardcore evil Islam of Iran, who had a series of riots and an almost rebellion over the morality police murdering a woman for failing to wear her hijab in public, leading to mass protests and men and woman coming out in open opposition to their government; they burnt their hijabs in the street.

The world is more complex than Islam bad or good. They're just people.

 

[tandino]

Can it reach 51%?

Very unlikely within the lifetime of any adult alive today.

 

[Chief]

Would you be ok to live in an Islamic nation?

I don't even want to live in a Christian nation.