Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[evolved2]

There's a bit of a problem with answering a question with another question; I could reply with - for example - another question again, such as asking you in turn if there's any danger of Australia becoming a purely Islamic nation?

But that strikes me as not being a part of improving the discourse, so with that in mind...

It depends what you mean by Islamic nation. If you mean a hard core Sharia law following, religious theocracy with corporal and capital punishment, then no I would not be okay to live in an Islamic nation (it's an, by the way. Islam starts with a vowel). But the funny thing about Islamic immigration: if these people - a lot of whom have immigrated through proper channels, aren't refugees; we don't actually bring in all that many refugees here - who are muslims actually wanted to live under Sharia law, wouldn't they be moving somewhere where it's already in place?

Why would they move here, where there isn't Sharia law and life is good and free - all the stuff we like about Australia - and they can live and practice their religion in peace and by and large be left alone, and try and bring in that kind of thing? Wouldn't that be somewhat akin to killing the golden goose?

There's also the fact that hard Wahhabist Islam is but a single branch of a broader religion, and Wahhabism is the problem overall. It's fundamentalist, it's regressive and repressive, and it's imported worldwide by Saudi Arabia on oil money. There are other strains of Islamic thought, and Islam can be as moderate as any religion can be; just, we're only rarely ever allowed to see it.

In my school library just last week - I'm a high school teacher - I saw a book about an Islamic girl whose parents wish she wouldn't wear her hijab, which was a preteen romance for teenage girls, written by a muslim woman. You've got the supposedly hardcore evil Islam of Iran, who had a series of riots and an almost rebellion over the morality police murdering a woman for failing to wear her hijab in public, leading to mass protests and men and woman coming out in open opposition to their government; they burnt their hijabs in the street.

The world is more complex than Islam bad or good. They're just people.

We're quick to target fundamentalist Christians and even the US over backward religious views on sexuality and womens rights. Yet surveys show attitudes of many Muslim majority nations to be far more backward and unaccepting than the US.

It seems to me that many give Islam and Muslims a free pass because they're not white or Western.

Islam isn't a race and I have no problem criticising it - I think all organised religion is backwards and dangerous, especially the Abrahamic versions.

While Christianity has been largely tamed in Australian society, it still punches above it's weight in politics. Islam has not yet been tamed and secularised to the same extent and I believe there are valid reasons to be concerned about its potential to influence our way of life. That's being swept under the carpet because we don't want to apper racist towards a religion.

 

[sr36]

So you’ve resigned to the fact the UK will become an Islamic nation?

No I'm not. I think the percentage will rise in the short term and that in the longer term the move away from organised religion will continue in the West and include both Islam and Christianity.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

So you’ve resigned to the fact the UK will become an Islamic nation?

Why didn't Britain copyright colonisation when they had the chance?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Well many British aren’t happy with the direction the UK is going

Those brits are isolationists, are you an isolationist?

 

[Gethelred]

We're quick to target fundamentalist Christians and even the US over backward religious views on sexuality and womens rights. Yet surveys show attitudes of many Muslim majority nations to be far more backward and unaccepting than the US.

It seems to me that many give Islam and Muslims a free pass because they're not white or Western.

Islam isn't a race and I have no problem criticising it - I think all organised religion is backwards and dangerous, especially the Abrahamic versions.

While Christianity has been largely tamed in Australian society, it still punches above it's weight in politics. Islam has not yet been tamed and secularised to the same extent and I believe there are valid reasons to be concerned about its potential to influence our way of life. That's being swept under the carpet because we don't want to apper racist towards a religion.

But that's kind of my problem in a nutshell: we paint all Islam with the fundamentalist brush when not all muslims are fundamentalist, especially Australian - or, indeed, any muslims who choose to leave a fundamentalist country for somewhere else - muslims.

I've lived with - via my mixed and varied experience in sharehomes and rooming houses - a number of different people; I've lived with an Iranian bloke who attended anti hijab protests in support of Iranian women; I've lived with an extremely wealthy Saudi bloke while he was in Melbourne going to Monash, who didn't drink with me and a mate but was perfectly fine being around alcohol and other kinds of living in sin; I've lived with a Bangladeshi muslim who was entirely too busy to do much more than go to an end of Eid celebration. Not a single one of them had anything positive to say about the expression of their religion in their own countries, with those who were more religious having worse things to say about the way their governments expressed their religion through violence.

Not one of them had anything positive to say about Sharia law.

I don't know. It's easier to do what you're already doing only more; any religion within a society carries within it the seeds of theocracy, because people - all people - want power and religion is if anything more susceptible to that kind of thinking. But I think the problem is - as usual - borne from the desire to control other people's lives rather than purely their faith or its expression, and attacking (or blaming) the latter rather than the former strikes me as unfair.

 

[the_interloper]

But that's kind of my problem in a nutshell: we paint all Islam with the fundamentalist brush when not all muslims are fundamentalist, especially Australian - or, indeed, any muslims who choose to leave a fundamentalist country for somewhere else - muslims.

I've lived with - via my mixed and varied experience in sharehomes and rooming houses - a number of different people; I've lived with an Iranian bloke who attended anti hijab protests in support of Iranian women; I've lived with an extremely wealthy Saudi bloke while he was in Melbourne going to Monash, who didn't drink with me and a mate but was perfectly fine being around alcohol and other kinds of living in sin; I've lived with a Bangladeshi muslim who was entirely too busy to do much more than go to an end of Eid celebration. Not a single one of them had anything positive to say about the expression of their religion in their own countries, with those who were more religious having worse things to say about the way their governments expressed their religion through violence.

Not one of them had anything positive to say about Sharia law.

I don't know. It's easier to do what you're already doing only more; any religion within a society carries within it the seeds of theocracy, because people - all people - want power and religion is if anything more susceptible to that kind of thinking. But I think the problem is - as usual - borne from the desire to control other people's lives rather than purely their faith or its expression, and attacking the latter rather than the former strikes me as unfair.

I've only known two Iranian blokes well through work, both of them stand out as being incredibly generous, empathetic and good company. Never discussed Sharia law or anything political with them but yeah, the fact they're both living in Australia may be an indicator of their thoughts of their mother country.

It's almost like you need to take people as you find them as opposed to prejudging them because of where they come from!

 

[Malifice]

Well many British aren’t happy with the direction the UK is going

Why should I listen to the British?

They're the same clowns that voted for Brexit and Boris Johnson aren't they?

 

[Malifice]

Can it reach 51%?

35 million Muslims?

Good luck with that.

Meanwhile:

Statistics from the Office of National Statistics published in 2019 showed that the number of non-religious people in Britain has increased by 46% since 2011 (up to a total of 39% of the population), with over 8 million more people declaring that they do not belong to any religious group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Statistics from the Office of,belong to any religious group.

The number of non religious people in the UK swelled by an extra 8 million Britons over the past decade.

Meanwhile, over the same time, the number of Muslims grew by 1 million.

Islam is the second-largest religion in the United Kingdom, with results from the 2011 Census giving the population as 4.4% of the total UK population,[4] while results from the 2021 Census recorded the population as 6.5% of the total in England and Wales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Islam is the second-largest,of Muslims in the country.

The Muslims have a lot of catching up to do to even reach parity with the growth level (and numbers) of atheists, let alone replacing them as the majority.

 

[evolved2]

But that's kind of my problem in a nutshell: we paint all Islam with the fundamentalist brush when not all muslims are fundamentalist, especially Australian - or, indeed, any muslims who choose to leave a fundamentalist country for somewhere else - muslims.

I've lived with - via my mixed and varied experience in sharehomes and rooming houses - a number of different people; I've lived with an Iranian bloke who attended anti hijab protests in support of Iranian women; I've lived with an extremely wealthy Saudi bloke while he was in Melbourne going to Monash, who didn't drink with me and a mate but was perfectly fine being around alcohol and other kinds of living in sin; I've lived with a Bangladeshi muslim who was entirely too busy to do much more than go to an end of Eid celebration. Not a single one of them had anything positive to say about the expression of their religion in their own countries, with those who were more religious having worse things to say about the way their governments expressed their religion through violence.

Not one of them had anything positive to say about Sharia law.

I don't know. It's easier to do what you're already doing only more; any religion within a society carries within it the seeds of theocracy, because people - all people - want power and religion is if anything more susceptible to that kind of thinking. But I think the problem is - as usual - borne from the desire to control other people's lives rather than purely their faith or its expression, and attacking (or blaming) the latter rather than the former strikes me as unfair.

Anecdotal stories don't negate my points. Surveys of majority Muslim nations frequently show low acceptance of diverse sexualities and womens rights - some nations have concerningly high acceptance of honour killings also. This is not a benign religion.

I find it easy to get along with fundamentalist Christians and the Muslims I know personally; that's no issue for me. In large groups, they're able to influence policy to our detriment - that's the problem.

It's hardly controversial to say negative things about Christian groups who have backwards attitudes, yet seems taboo to do the same to Muslims. I don't see how it can be considered punching down when Islam has 2 billion adherents.

I don't really care what someone believes if they're not using it to control me. When imaginary friends are forced down our throats is when I take issue - and I think it's naive to not see the potential for this to go very bad.

 

[Malifice]

I find it easy to get along with fundamentalist Christians and the Muslims I know personally; that's no issue for me. In large groups, they're able to influence policy to our detriment - that's the problem.

Hypocrisy much?

Currently the largest group is the non Muslims, and here you are, as a member of that group, advocating for policy to discriminate against the Muslim minority (ostensibly to keep them that way).

 

[10571z]

35 million Muslims?

Good luck with that.

Meanwhile:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Statistics from the Office of,belong to any religious group.

The number of non religious people in the UK swelled by an extra 8 million Britons over the past decade.

Meanwhile, over the same time, the number of Muslims grew by 1 million.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Islam is the second-largest,of Muslims in the country.

The Muslims have a lot of catching up to do to even reach parity with the growth level (and numbers) of atheists, let alone replacing them as the majority.

A lot of catching but it’s growing rapidly due in immigration and family sizes.

Would you be happy following Islamic based laws?

 

[Gethelred]

This is increasingly smelling like White Replacement to me.

 

[Gethelred]

Anecdotal stories don't negate my points.

Never said they did, nor do I imply via that post that they should. You might also notice I said - in the post you quoted - the following:

I don't know.

About all I tried to say in that post is that it's complicated.

Surveys of majority Muslim nations frequently show low acceptance of diverse sexualities and womens rights - some nations have concerningly high acceptance of honour killings also. This is not a benign religion.

It's not really as if Europe is all that far away from their own issues regarding diverse sexualities or women's rights.

Do we exclude Russians or Russian Orthadox on the same basis?

I find it easy to get along with fundamentalist Christians and the Muslims I know personally; that's no issue for me. In large groups, they're able to influence policy to our detriment - that's the problem.

Now, we're starting to come to where my issues lie.

I refuse to agree with racists. This aligns with some awfully racist perspectives; you are laundering racism into non racist language by providing them this argument.

It's hardly controversial to say negative things about Christian groups who have backwards attitudes, yet seems taboo to do the same to Muslims. I don't see how it can be considered punching down when Islam has 2 billion adherents.

Those 2 billion adherents aren't here, nor is it taboo to criticise them. This thread is called what, again?

I don't really care what someone believes if they're not using it to control me. When imaginary friends are forced down our throats is when I take issue - and I think it's naive to not see the potential for this to go very bad.

As stated in my post on this:

It's easier to do what you're already doing only more; any religion within a society carries within it the seeds of theocracy, because people - all people - want power and religion is if anything more susceptible to that kind of thinking

I'm pretty concerned myself. But if someone in this thread is making Great Replacement arguments in here, I'm going to object to it.

 

[Chief]

This is increasingly smelling like White Replacement to me.

Oh definitely.

 

[10571z]

This is increasingly smelling like White Replacement to me.

We are pushed daily with discussions and promotions of LGBT and women’s rights but then expected to be supportive of a religion with horrendous track records in both fields?

 

[evolved2]

Hypocrisy much?

Currently the largest group is the non Muslims, and here you are, as a member of that group, advocating for policy to discriminate against the Muslim minority (ostensibly to keep them that way).

Non-Muslims aren't a defined religious group. I'm an atheist - a group of people with no religious ideology; I do not want my life to be infected by other peoples imaginary friends, whether they be Christian, Muslim or other.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Non-Muslims aren't a defined religious group. I'm an atheist - a group of people with no religious ideology; I do not want my life to be infected by other peoples imaginary friends, whether they be Christian, Muslim or other.

Yet here you are, defending the Church of England with your bunchofnumberz friend.

Your own little antiwoke crusade.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

What does Grand Wizard Elon think?

I'm sure there's a tweet.

 

[evolved2]

Never said they did, nor do I imply via that post that they should. You might also notice I said - in the post you quoted - the following:

About all I tried to say in that post is that it's complicated.

It's not really as if Europe is all that far away from their own issues regarding diverse sexualities or women's rights.

Do we exclude Russians or Russian Orthadox on the same basis?

Now, we're starting to come to where my issues lie.

I refuse to agree with racists. This aligns with some awfully racist perspectives; you are laundering racism into non racist language by providing them this argument.

Those 2 billion adherents aren't here, nor is it taboo to criticise them. This thread is called what, again?

As stated in my post on this:

I'm pretty concerned myself. But if someone in this thread is making Great Replacement arguments in here, I'm going to object to it.

We could easily go round in circles on a lot of those points, but the bolded is interesting.

Is it racist per se to have some overlap with arguments made by racists? Some would consider me racist for doing so, but I don't believe that can be justified beyond a 'vibe'. In the same way, there's some overlap between my views and those of opponents to trans rights, but I wouldn't accept that I'm bigoted towards trans people based on a 'feel'.

I have no problem with Arabs, Indonesians or Africans. I have a problem with Islam.

 

[evolved2]

Yet here you are, defending the Church of England with your bunchofnumberz friend.

Your own little antiwoke crusade.

Where did I do that?

 

[MrsBlueSky]

The heartland of Islam, Saudi Arabia, are sports washing with LIV golf and boxing.
They are brainwashing me to think it's great to build a 2km high skyscraper.
They do their criminal disappearing head trick in public.
But compared to Catholics who seem to me to have a pedophile in every parish, I'd rather the Muslim approach to life because I would rather submit to God than submit to a pedo.

 

[sr36]

Anecdotal stories don't negate my points. Surveys of majority Muslim nations frequently show low acceptance of diverse sexualities and womens rights - some nations have concerningly high acceptance of honour killings also. This is not a benign religion.

The point that's missed in conversations like this is that the majority of muslims in Australia are Australians. We're not talking about another country, we're talking about whether we should control religious beliefs amongst Australians. Control birth rates of Australians from a particular religious group . etc...

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Anecdotal stories don't negate my points. Surveys of majority Muslim nations frequently show low acceptance of diverse sexualities and womens rights - some nations have concerningly high acceptance of honour killings also. This is not a benign religion.

What you describe here is antiwoke. Some athiests are known to base their identity on similar ideologies.

Maybe this isn't about religion after all?

 

[Chief]

We are pushed daily with discussions and promotions of LGBT and women’s rights but then expected to be supportive of a religion with horrendous track records in both fields?

You were talking about people, not the religion.

 

[10571z]

You were talking about people, not the religion.

Um what?