Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Saint]

When I was in high school, the school took us on an excursion - during RE, of all things - to an Islamic private school so that we could learn about what Muslims believed. We had a number of presentations delivered to us, and one of them was on the burka and was delivered by students who were women.

What it represents to them is modesty, in the same way wearing long skirts and showing no skin also represents modesty. In the same breath, so does wearing a beard and likewise avoiding showing skin represents modesty in a man.

I don't particularly value modesty. It hasn't particularly impacted my life; I've not had a great deal to be modest about as an adult, Evolved.

That's a whole lot of indirect answers, so let's be clear: I don't think the burka is worn for the benefit of the women or men. I think it's an archaic method of societal control, the way all religions prescribe rules upon individuals and over society to ensure group conformity visually; and as with a lot of things, it's a patriarchal construct that cuts both men and women, women more than men.

But that's not my decision to make for the people who were born within a muslim family, culture or context, and nor should it be.

The line should be drawn at what point people are being coerced, not just forced.

It's almost impossible to do, though. Until attitudes change in the patriarchal Islamic faiths, as they did in most of the Christian ones, it won't be lasting.

The thing you don't see is that women who are forced to cover up in public simply go to public spaces less because it's one more hurdle put up in front of them. Instead, they to mingle amongst themselves in the privacy of one of their own homes so they can do so un-covered (as long as the men aren't around). Or they just stay at home more.

The system is set up so women are seen and heard less. We should oppose it vocally, but the Government can't force change.

There are still Christian denominations who don't let women out and when they do they must be covered from neck to toe and we don't ban that. Same for Jews and mormons with their funny undergarments. (Ridicule is perfectly fine for these stone-age era stupid beliefs).

 

[sr36]

No. I think both are pro-women and Islam is misogynistic.

Do you think Islam is pro-women and pro-LGBT?

None of the major religions are: Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism

Different countries have developed at different rates. We're fortunate to live in a secular county which has moved further away from archaic dogma than some other countries have - however, it's not that long ago that Australia was a country that was miles away from being pro-women or pro-lgbt, yet many somehow view themselves as innately enlightened and others as innately backwards on these issues - it's nonsense.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If there was a sub culture of people who wore them day in and out then yes…

 

[10571z]

Well Ive lived my entire life without seeing a Fury… so comparing that to the burqa is laughable

 

[evolved2]

None of the major religions are: Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism

Different countries have developed at different rates. We're fortunate to live in a secular county which has moved further away from archaic dogma than some other countries have - however, it's not that long ago that Australia was a country that was miles away from being pro-women or pro-lgbt, yet many somehow view themselves as innately enlightened and others as innately backwards on these issues - it's nonsense.

Nobody is innately enlightened, we can agree on that. We're all a product of the environment we live in - the culture and people around us.

The question I pose is whether Islam adds anything positive to society. What can it bring to Australia to make this nation better? Notice I specifically said Islam, not Muslims.

I was a Christian for over a decade. While a believer, I opposed gay marriage and the right to choose abortion. When I stopped believing, I came to realise the reasons to oppose abortion and gay marriage were no longer there.

I don't understand how any reasonable person can think that Christianity and Islam are healthier beliefs than chemtrails and lizard people.

Christianity and Islam have the habit of interfering with politics, human rights and education wherever they're allowed to flourish.

There's little opposing argument on the SRP when I point out the dangers of Christianity - we can see its nefarious work in American politics quite clearly.

Somehow Islam is a special case. Progressives feel the need to defend the indefensible like they never do with Christianity.

I don't really feel it's my responsibility to welcome Islam into the country. I'm not going to tell people what to believe, but I'm not going to pretend Islam is a religion of peace either.

 

[sr36]

Nobody is innately enlightened, we can agree on that. We're all a product of the environment we live in - the culture and people around us.

The question I pose is whether Islam adds anything positive to society. What can it bring to Australia to make this nation better? Notice I specifically said Islam, not Muslims.

I was a Christian for over a decade. While a believer, I opposed gay marriage and the right to choose abortion. When I stopped believing, I came to realise the reasons to oppose abortion and gay marriage were no longer there.

I don't understand how any reasonable person can think that Christianity and Islam are healthier beliefs than chemtrails and lizard people.

Christianity and Islam have the habit of interfering with politics, human rights and education wherever they're allowed to flourish.

There's little opposing argument on the SRP when I point out the dangers of Christianity - we can see its nefarious work in American politics quite clearly.

Somehow Islam is a special case. Progressives feel the need to defend the indefensible like they never do with Christianity.

I don't really feel it's my responsibility to welcome Islam into the country. I'm not going to tell people what to believe, but I'm not going to pretend Islam is a religion of peace either.

You're talking as though the religion is new to Australia. It's been settled in Australia for over 160 years. Plus Islamic Makasar traders visiting Australia for centuries before that.

The rest of your post seems to advocate liberalism and freedom of thought - but at the same time complain about freedom of religion. You've spoken a fair bit about the contradicting views of "progressives" - where do your views sit regarding liberalism and freedom of religion - seems to be a contradictory issue going on there from my vantage point.

 

[Gethelred]

Nobody is innately enlightened, we can agree on that. We're all a product of the environment we live in - the culture and people around us.

The question I pose is whether Islam adds anything positive to society. What can it bring to Australia to make this nation better? Notice I specifically said Islam, not Muslims.

I was a Christian for over a decade. While a believer, I opposed gay marriage and the right to choose abortion. When I stopped believing, I came to realise the reasons to oppose abortion and gay marriage were no longer there.

I don't understand how any reasonable person can think that Christianity and Islam are healthier beliefs than chemtrails and lizard people.

Do you feel like you're arguing with anyone who would oppose this?

Christianity and Islam have the habit of interfering with politics, human rights and education wherever they're allowed to flourish.

There's little opposing argument on the SRP when I point out the dangers of Christianity - we can see its nefarious work in American politics quite clearly.

Somehow Islam is a special case. Progressives feel the need to defend the indefensible like they never do with Christianity.

... because - and this has been established plenty, both across the SRP and in wider society - anti Islam is very frequently code for anti-Arab.

If only people would stop using dogwhistles and say what they thought openly. Alas.

I don't really feel it's my responsibility to welcome Islam into the country.

I don't recall anyone asking you to.

I'm not going to tell people what to believe, but I'm not going to pretend Islam is a religion of peace either.

I don't recall anyone insisting you had to.

I wonder a bit how often people read between the lines on this forum, how often they respond to the unintended rather than the unsaid.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Well Ive lived my entire life without seeing a Fury… so comparing that to the burqa is laughable

So its all about what YOU personally have seen.
You don't care about the poor schmucks who have to live near the furry's as long as they ban the hats that you see and don't like.

 

[10571z]

So its all about what YOU personally have seen.
You don't care about the poor schmucks who have to live near the furry's as long as they ban the hats that you see and don't like.

You’re talking about a tiny subculture of mentally ill people.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You’re talking about a tiny subculture of mentally ill people.

Why should the size of the subculture make a difference. If there were only a few hundred Muslims you might label them the same.
I think that any good society should allow people to wear whatever hats they like.

I understand that there are places that mandate that motorcycle helmets must be removed, and i consider that should apply to any headgear that hides the face.

I find it very poor, that women can be coerced into wearing that stuff, but its pretty harmless to everyone else. Its a hat.
There are plenty of other things that need to be stamped out before the hats.

Towards estimating the prevalence of female genital mutilation/cutting in Australia, Summary

The World Health Organization estimates that female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) affects over 200 million women and girls across the world. This report provides an indication of the potential...

www.aihw.gov.au

 

[Malifice]

I don't understand how any reasonable person can think that Christianity and Islam are healthier beliefs than chemtrails and lizard people.

Humans have always sought out answers the unknown or answerable. Like it or not religious belief is a common and uniquely human thing.

It's healthy to a degree. I mean without it, you're left with existential dread and the knowledge that nothing you do matters, nothing lasts forever, and all things end.

In a way, Im actually envious of the devout.

As long as the religious keep to themselves, and dont harm anyone, it doesnt bother me what people believe.

When they're agitating for some kind of oppression or rules for others based on how their sky fairy supposedly thinks we should live, I oppose them.

It's one of my two biggest issues with Islam. The political nature of it.

My other issue with it is it's propensity to a literalist and fundamentalist interpretation of its holy book (positions the other Abrahamic faiths have largely moved past), which is particularly troublesome regarding that holy books open condoning of defensive war, and a moral code stuck in the 8th century.

I have no beef with Muslims, any more than I do with Christians, Scientologists, Jews, Buddhists or whomever. You believe what you want to believe, and practice how you want to practice. As long as it doesnt harm anyone else, I dont care.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I don't understand how any reasonable person can think that Christianity and Islam are healthier beliefs than chemtrails and lizard people.

To be fair, there is fossil evidence of lizard gods that once roamed the Earth.

 

[10571z]

Why should the size of the subculture make a difference. If there were only a few hundred Muslims you might label them the same.
I think that any good society should allow people to wear whatever hats they like.

I understand that there are places that mandate that motorcycle helmets must be removed, and i consider that should apply to any headgear that hides the face.

I find it very poor, that women can be coerced into wearing that stuff, but its pretty harmless to everyone else. Its a hat.
There are plenty of other things that need to be stamped out before the hats.

Towards estimating the prevalence of female genital mutilation/cutting in Australia, Summary

The World Health Organization estimates that female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) affects over 200 million women and girls across the world. This report provides an indication of the potential...

www.aihw.gov.au

If we want people who migrate here to assimilate to Australian culture then wearing a burqa simply isn’t it.

It’s a non sensical concept that should be pushed back into the dark ages.

 

[Chief]

As long as the religious keep to themselves, and dont harm anyone, it doesnt bother me what people believe.

When they're agitating for some kind of oppression or rules for others based on how their sky fairy supposedly thinks we should live, I oppose them.

This includes children who aren't old enough to understand the coercion and indoctrination they are undergoing.

It's one of my two biggest issues with Islam. The political nature of it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If we want people who migrate here to assimilate to Australian culture then wearing a burqa simply isn’t it.

It’s a non sensical concept that should be pushed back into the dark ages.

I agree, but i don't think it should be legally enforced.

Orstraya....No Silly hats here mate!!!.

 

[10571z]

I agree, but i don't think it should be legally enforced.

Orstraya....No Silly hats here mate!!!.

I have no issue with Hijabs… I’m talking full face burqa. It’s much more than a hat

 

[evolved2]

Do you feel like you're arguing with anyone who would oppose this?

Possibly. I genuinely don't know. Some posts are indistinguishable from Islamic apologetics.

... because - and this has been established plenty, both across the SRP and in wider society - anti Islam is very frequently code for anti-Arab.

If only people would stop using dogwhistles and say what they thought openly. Alas.

And it seems to be the automatic assumption for some. Criticise Islam - racist. Criticise (left wing) Aboriginal politician - racist.

I don't recall anyone asking you to.

I don't recall anyone insisting you had to.

I wonder a bit how often people read between the lines on this forum, how often they respond to the unintended rather than the unsaid.

I'm sure it happens very often. Words and meanings can be misconstrued or poorly communicated, and are filtered through our own biases. Sometimes its hard to remember who posted what.

 

[evolved2]

You're talking as though the religion is new to Australia. It's been settled in Australia for over 160 years. Plus Islamic Makasar traders visiting Australia for centuries before that.

The rest of your post seems to advocate liberalism and freedom of thought - but at the same time complain about freedom of religion. You've spoken a fair bit about the contradicting views of "progressives" - where do your views sit regarding liberalism and freedom of religion - seems to be a contradictory issue going on there from my vantage point.

Believe whatever nonsense you want - I wouldn't ban Islam or any religion, but I'd appreciate it if believers kept their nonsense out of healthcare, politics, and science.

 

[Gethelred]

You’re talking about a tiny subculture of mentally ill people.

... is it reasonable to kinkshame people offline?

 

[sr36]

Believe whatever nonsense you want - I wouldn't ban Islam or any religion, but I'd appreciate it if believers kept their nonsense out of healthcare, politics, and science.

The point I'm saying is that if you are into liberalism you respect the right for people to have opinions that are different to your own. So you respect peoples rights to be both gender divergent but also anti-gender divergence. It's not an ideological anomaly or a contradiction to be both accepting of LGBTI and islam. It gets contradictory when you praise liberalism but say no to islam. Which is the flawed conservative trick that you play.

 

[Malifice]

t's not an ideological anomaly or a contradiction to be both accepting of LGBTI and islam. It gets contradictory when you praise liberalism but say no to islam.

This.

Just like I support peoples rights to love who they want, I support their rights to worship how they want. Do no harm, and we're all good.

I oppose Nazis, but have no issue with conservatives generally. I don't attribute the beliefs of the hard Right wing with Right wingers generally, nor do I say we should outlaw Conservatives.

They stray too far Right and start hailing Hitler, and we can talk.

I also oppose Islamist jihadists, but have no issue with Muslims generally.

Your average Joe Muslim (and thats 99.9 percent of them) I have no issue with. The tiny number of extremist dickheads waving the Black Flag and flying over to Syria can ****ing stay there or rot in a prison.

Think how you want, believe in what you want to believe in, vote how you want, live and love how you want. Cross the line into harming other people, and then I'm more than happy for you to get smacked down.

 

[10571z]

... is it reasonable to kinkshame people offline?

We are online

 

[Gethelred]

We are online

Why would it be more reasonable here?

You're a bee's dick from getting an infraction. Check out forum rules before you choose to continue.

 

[sdfc]

This.

Just like I support peoples rights to love who they want, I support their rights to worship how they want. Do no harm, and we're all good.

I oppose Nazis, but have no issue with conservatives generally. I don't attribute the beliefs of the hard Right wing with Right wingers generally, nor do I say we should outlaw Conservatives.

They stray too far Right and start hailing Hitler, and we can talk.

I also oppose Islamist jihadists, but have no issue with Muslims generally.

Your average Joe Muslim (and thats 99.9 percent of them) I have no issue with. The tiny number of extremist dickheads waving the Black Flag and flying over to Syria can ****ing stay there or rot in a prison.

Think how you want, believe in what you want to believe in, vote how you want, live and love how you want. Cross the line into harming other people, and then I'm more than happy for you to get smacked down.

I'm not a big fan of the dickheads who make their women wear head-to-toe black letterbox outfits either.

 

[Gralin]

If we want people who migrate here to assimilate to Australian culture then wearing a burqa simply isn’t it.

It’s a non sensical concept that should be pushed back into the dark ages.

Do you say the same thing to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders?

Do you walk into Chinese restaurants and scream at them to eat Vegemite?

Do you yell at people that listen to American music?