Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Saint]

I'm guessing the correlation is stronger between DV and level of patriarchy in a society than just religiosity.

It's just that most religions are patriarchal so there'll be a strong overlap.

Men thinking they're special is the problem. All the ancient books tell them they are, right back to Adam and Eve, Moses and Muhammed, Zoroaster and Buddha, Zeus and Odin.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm guessing the correlation is stronger between DV and level of patriarchy in a society than just religiosity.

It's just that most religions are patriarchal so there'll be a strong overlap.

Men thinking they're special is the problem. All the ancient books tell them they are, right back to Adam and Eve, Moses and Muhammed, Zoroaster and Buddha, Zeus and Odin.

The "natural" order of things in the animal world is that the strongest is in charge, and you use your strength to prove it.
It would be good to rise above the animal world.

 

[Saint]

The "natural" order of things in the animal world is that the strongest is in charge, and you use your strength to prove it.
It would be good to rise above the animal world.

Religious people wish they were closer back to the animal world.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The "natural" order of things in the animal world is that the strongest is in charge, and you use your strength to prove it.
It would be good to rise above the animal world.

Slightly off topic, but by and large our societies have absolutely evolved past the animal world or mammalian nature, for want of a better term.

Ok human kind cannot completely eradicate mammalian nature, coz that's what we are. Overwhelmingly though our societies have managed to achieve civility without attempting the impossible- removing human/ mammalian nature. And by and large have accomplished that balance extremely well.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Slightly off topic, but by and large our societies have absolutely evolved past the animal world or mammalian nature, for want of a better term.

Ok human kind cannot completely eradicate mammalian nature, coz that's what we are. Overwhelmingly though our societies have managed to achieve civility without attempting the impossible- removing human/ mammalian nature. And by and large have accomplished that balance extremely well.

Perhaps its men, frustrated at their competitive beast nature being ineffective against modern law enforcement agents, employers, government entities, who therefore assert their power against someone close by and weaker.

There is still a lot of talk about "Alpha males". That's a direct reference to the animal kingdom.

 

[Saint]

I think early on, religion aimed to separate us from our animal instincts by being just slightly ahead and promoting a type of civilisation relevant to around the 0-1000 AD period.

But society evolved past religion about 500 years ago and now it's religions which are trying to drag us back 1,000 years to a time when it mattered to survival of a tribe if they allowed homosexuality, or women to leave their husbands or adultery was a problem and eating off food wasn't a good idea.

Now, most of our problems are economic and academic. There's probably too many people on earth and most tribes are over-populated.

A new religion trying to address today's problems would probably be pro-homosexuality and anti-monogamy, whatever is deemed most economically viable....(this religion would still be equally pointless as the old ones).

 

[sr36]

Because they are recording statistics that means it is a cultural issue?
How does that logic work?
It doesn't, you are just making it up.

Abuse/the use of violence is learned behaviour.
A person develops the tendency for violence by witnessing it with their own eyes.
Violence/abuse in a domestic setting occurs in every and all cultures.
ie blaming culture for causing it is meaningless because it is prevalent in all cultures

This doesn't make much sense.

Culture is learnt behaviour, thoughts, values and actions common within a community.

So if as you point out DV is learnt behaviour - then of course it can be cultural and higher or lower rates in particular cultures are likely to be cultural.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

This doesn't make much sense.

Culture is learnt behaviour, thoughts, values and actions common within a community.

So if as you point out DV is learnt behaviour - then of course it can be cultural.

Learnt or accepted?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Perhaps its men, frustrated at their competitive beast nature being ineffective against modern law enforcement agents, employers, government entities, who therefore assert their power against someone close by and weaker.

There is still a lot of talk about "Alpha males". That's a direct reference to the animal kingdom.

Oh no doubt, men are frustrated, those who use 'Alpha' in their language like scumbag tate are targeting the incel types.

This is probably a discussion for the tate thread tbh.

Mods if you wanna move this convo, no probs from me.

 

[sr36]

Learnt or accepted?

What's the difference.

 

[Number37]

This doesn't make much sense.

Culture is learnt behaviour, thoughts, values and actions common within a community.

So if as you point out DV is learnt behaviour - then of course it can be cultural and higher or lower rates in particular cultures are likely to be cultural.

Domestic.
Violence.

1/
It is not learned in someone else's home, it is learned in your own home.
2/
If it is cultural, in the sense you say it is, then it's not that a culture teaches people DV, it is that the culture teaches people to excuse it. There is a big difference between the 2.
Many cultures teach people to excuse it. IMO there aren't any cultures that teaches people to do it.

 

[sr36]

Domestic.
Violence.

1/
It is not learned in someone else's home, it is learned in your own home.
2/
If it is cultural, in the sense you say it is, then it's not that a culture teaches people DV, it is that the culture teaches people to excuse it. There is a big difference between the 2.
Many cultures teach people to excuse it. IMO there aren't any cultures that teaches people to do it.

Culture isn't just behaviour - it's attitudes and values and beliefs.

It's not long ago in Australia that rape in marriage wasn't a legal possibilty and that the Cops didn't get involved with DV occurrences, as they were considered a private matter. This was very much cultural and also very likely increased the amount of DV in Australian culture which is very likely to still be a factor that elevates the ongoing issue and instances of DV in Australian culture, as many current abusers grew up in households where it occurred and was accepted by Australian culture and have been influenced by that - influenced by Australia's historic cultural attitudes to privacy regarding what occurs in a marriage and gender power relationships in marriage.

I know nothing about DV in other cultures and aren't saying one culture is better or worse than another - just that DV rates within a culture are very likely cultural. But it'd be really hard to compare, as when Australia had the attitude that what goes on in a marriage is a private matter, it was rarely reported and everyone turned a blind eye. So there isn't reliable data on the topic. Lots still goes unreported for various personal and cultural reasons.

 

[Number37]

Culture isn't just behaviour - it's attitudes and values and beliefs.

It's not long ago in Australia that rape in marriage wasn't a legal possibilty and that the Cops didn't get involved with DV occurrences, as they were considered a private matter. This was very much cultural and also very likely increased the amount of DV in Australian culture which is very likely to still be a factor that elevates the ongoing issue and instances of DV in Australian culture, as many current abusers grew up in households where it occurred and was accepted by Australian culture and have been influenced by that - influenced by Australia's historic cultural attitudes to privacy regarding what occurs in a marriage and gender power relationships in marriage.

I know nothing about DV in other cultures and aren't saying one culture is better or worse than another - just that DV rates within a culture are very likely cultural. But it'd be really hard to compare, as when Australia had the attitude that what goes on in a marriage is a private matter, it was rarely reported and everyone turned a blind eye. So there isn't reliable data on the topic. Lots still goes unreported for various personal and cultural reasons.

DV transcends culture. It happens in EVERY culture.
If it happens in every culture how can it be cultural?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

DV transcends culture. It happens in EVERY culture.
If it happens in every culture how can it be cultural?

The discussion started with "honour deaths". That is something that doesn't happen in every culture.
It highlights the level at which DV might be accepted.

 

[sr36]

DV transcends culture. It happens in EVERY culture.
If it happens in every culture how can it be cultural?

Murder happens in every culture, but surely you'd acknowledge that America's higher rates are connected to cultural attitudes towards guns and/or other cultural factors?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

other cultural factors?

christofascism?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Murder happens in every culture, but surely you'd acknowledge that America's higher rates are connected to cultural attitudes towards guns and/or other cultural factors?

It may or may not be a cultural attitude, if the only thing stopping us from having the same murder rate is the legal aspects of owning a gun. Having a handy weapon when you "snap" will increase the murder rate.

My personal belief is that Australia doesn't have the gang issues they have in the USA , not as bad, gangs that do "drive by" killings and the like are demented.
But imagine what it would be like if Mongol's and the like were all armed with legal weapons.

 

[sr36]

It may or may not be a cultural attitude, if the only thing stopping us from having the same murder rate is the legal aspects of owning a gun. Having a handy weapon when you "snap" will increase the murder rate.

My personal belief is that Australia doesn't have the gang issues they have in the USA , not as bad, gangs that do "drive by" killings and the like are demented.
But imagine what it would be like if Mongol's and the like were all armed with legal weapons.

The point is the legal aspect comes from a cultural aspect.

In terms of the US and murder, I'd be looking at attitudes towards guns, attitudes towards self defence and protection of property and pretty extreme social inequality and entitlement enabled by attitudes around hero worship of individual success.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The point is the legal aspect comes from a cultural aspect.

In terms of the US and murder, I'd be looking at attitudes towards guns, attitudes towards self defence and protection of property and pretty extreme social inequality and entitlement enabled by attitudes around hero worship of individual success.

I don't know , fireworks on Guy Fawkes night were part of our culture. Then they were banned due to horrific injuries every year, and now its not part of our culture.
Drink driving was part of our culture, we banned it.

Guns have been controlled to some extent, for a long time in Australia. So when murderous rampages started happening, they were able to tighten them.
USA never had that early control, and the kind of action we took after Port Arthur would not have been possible in the USA.

Most Americans do not own a gun but a lot do.

 

[sr36]

I don't know , fireworks on Guy Fawkes night were part of our culture. Then they were banned due to horrific injuries every year, and now its not part of our culture.
Drink driving was part of our culture, we banned it.

Guns have been controlled to some extent, for a long time in Australia. So when murderous rampages started happening, they were able to tighten them.
USA never had that early control, and the kind of action we took after Port Arthur would not have been possible in the USA.

Most Americans do not own a gun but a lot do.

Yes, but there are cultural reasons why we banned these things and why the US aren't going to get tight gun laws. Laws don't get passed in a cultureless vaccum.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yes, but there are cultural reasons why we banned these things and why the US aren't going to get tight gun laws. Laws don't get passed in a cultureless vaccum.

Guns were handed out to convicts for hunting. They got misused and misplaced ( who'd have thunk it ).
There had also been settlers shooting at Aboriginals unnecessarily and unprovoked.
So they were restricted very early at the start of the colony.

The situation in the USA is difficult with their background. But lots of Americans would like guns banned, and most don't own a gun.
Only a small percentage murder anyone.

The big issue facing them now , is that when someone has a mental episode, instead of doing doughnuts in a crowded street in the city, they grab a machine gun that just happens to be lying around.

 

[sr36]

Guns were handed out to convicts for hunting. They got misused and misplaced ( who'd have thunk it ).
There had also been settlers shooting at Aboriginals unnecessarily and unprovoked.
So they were restricted very early at the start of the colony.

The situation in the USA is difficult with their background. But lots of Americans would like guns banned, and most don't own a gun.
Only a small percentage murder anyone.

The big issue facing them now , is that when someone has a mental episode, instead of doing doughnuts in a crowded street in the city, they grab a machine gun that just happens to be lying around.

The right to gun ownership is enshrined in their constitution due to their war of independence, making guns a part of their culture in a way they aren't in many other cultures. Gun ownership is very high by global standards. 44% of households accoridng to Gallup polls. It's the only country in the world that is believed to have more civilian owned guns than civilians.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The right to gun ownership is enshrined in their constitution due to their war of independence, making guns a part of their culture in a way they aren't in many other cultures. Gun ownership is very high by global standards. 44% of households accoridng to Gallup polls. It's the only country in the world that is believed to have more civilian owned guns than civilians.

They tend to have gun owners with multiple guns, which makes the gun ownership per capita huge.

Is it more of a gun culture than places that routinely shooting innocent people at wedding celebrations?

Focus - Iraq's gun problem: Authorities seek to crack down on illegal firearms

At least 8 million weapons of all types are believed to be in circulation in Iraq. With no real state control to oversee them, illegal firearms are responsible for hundreds of deaths each year, sometimes…

www.france24.com

 

[sr36]

They tend to have gun owners with multiple guns, which makes the gun ownership per capita huge.

Is it more of a gun culture than places that routinely shooting innocent people at wedding celebrations?

Focus - Iraq's gun problem: Authorities seek to crack down on illegal firearms

At least 8 million weapons of all types are believed to be in circulation in Iraq. With no real state control to oversee them, illegal firearms are responsible for hundreds of deaths each year, sometimes…

www.france24.com

If you belive the polls- it's not just more guns in America - it's more households with guns - so yes it's likely that the US has more of a gun culture than anywhere else.

Routine shootings of innocent people at weddings? routine seems a stretch from that article.
Routine shootings of innocent people at schools? - that's probably a stretch from me too.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If you belive the polls- it's not just more guns in America - it's more households with guns - so yes it's likely that the US has more of a gun culture than anywhere else.

Routine shootings of innocent people at weddings? routine seems a stretch from that article.
Routine shootings of innocent people at schools? - that's probably a stretch from me too.

If you shoot guns randomly routinely , you will have routine deaths.

Celebratory gunfire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Shooting of people at schools is different.
As Australia identified , if you can't get your hands on an Automatic weapon when you go off the rails, then you won't be able to kill so many people.