Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[JackOutback]

The attacker came from a Christian family (and for all we know was a Christian), and was born in the UK.

He also apparently had some serious mental health problems.

How this is being framed as a 'Muslims bad' argument (when they're literally the ones being attacked by other natural born citizens of the UK) is absolutely beyond me.

And if you're against Immigration, put your money where your mouth is, explain this to the closest Aboriginal person and **** off home.

Or is that different somehow?

Even when it's the fault of white, far right extremists, it's still the Muslims' fault for making them do this.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

No, its not.

It's the primary driver of Australian wealth actually.



No, I oppose any calls to persecute either Muslims or LGBTI people. You see, Im consistent.



How is it moronic? You're literally sitting here, as the child of an Immigrant, in Australia, bitching about 'Mass immigration'.

If immigration is wrong, and mass immigration doubly so, why don't you pack your bags and head back to England or wherever you or your ancestors came from?

Serious question. I know a fair few Aboriginal people who would like to hear your answer.

It makes it easier for the government to boost the economy.
It doesn't necessarily help the incumbent population.

 

[smish]

It's quite odd that there's belief / fear among a few that islam is some sort of existential threat.

I can't get my head around how some (fortunately a minuscule percentile) have this fear.

There is no societal threat, we've seen 10 years ago, the islam that you're so afraid of did actually attempt a societal takeover (for want of a better term) and failed - dismally! < Thankfully.

So if there is no societal threat why do the same posters keep criticizing islam?

Does islam have archaic and theocratic principles that we abhor? Certainly yes, so what? How are you going to stop an ideology? More pertinent, an ideology that likely has zero effect on your daily liberal democratic life.

Can someone please explain this to me?

Try telling that to the people of England

 

[Carringbush2010]

Tell this to the people of Afghanistan, Lebanon and Iran. Those who lived and died under ISIS, Boko Haram.

The list goes on.

If you wanna go into whataboutism we could do that infinitum.

My point is.

A. The abhorrence of islam, you can do nothing about, for starters the hard core ideology is continents away

B. More importantly, the abhorrence of islam does not exist on liberal democratic shores, that was tried and failed spectacularly a decade ago.

C. Most importantly, therefore the abhorrence of islam likely doesn't effect you. You're more likely to be effected by Catholicism or Christianity than islam, even then unless you're closely tied to those two you're not likely to be effected by them either (whataboutism).

Religion is dying a slow death in liberal democracies, it's not popular, so the 'threat' of religion on our daily liberal lives is dwindling, so the 'threat' of islam to you or I is practically zero.

Harping on about the 'bad' of islam half a world away just gives irrational progressives ammo, and you'll just go around in circles.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Try telling that to the people of England

You think England has now become an islamic state?

 

[bzparkes]

Even when it's the fault of white, far right extremists, it's still the Muslims' fault for making them do this.

Is constant knife-crime in London(as an example) by illegal immigrants the fault of white-supremacists?

I think you need to broaden your world-view a bit mate.

Now in regards to the current riots, it's a 'shame' that the perp was underage, because due to UK law his identity cannot be released.

Now people got wind that he's a 2nd gen Rwandan from Cardiff and automatically assumed African = Muslim and attacked a mosque.

I think we can all agree that doing this off no information is pretty damn stupid and in this particular case, the rioters who attacked a mosque off no info are indeed in the wrong and the action itself is appalling.

 

[smish]

You think England has now become an islamic state?

What reference to an Islamic State did I make? Or are you trying to paint me as a "far right" lunatic to support your agenda?

Have you been living under a rock? Or are you genuinely oblivious to the societal disharmony in the UK?

 

[bzparkes]

If you wanna go into whataboutism we could do that infinitum.

My point is.

A. The abhorrence of islam, you can do nothing about, for starters the hard core ideology is continents away

B. More importantly, the abhorrence of islam does not exist on liberal democratic shores, that was tried and failed spectacularly a decade ago.

C. Most importantly, therefore the abhorrence of islam likely doesn't effect you. You're more likely to be effected by Catholicism or Christianity than islam, even then unless you're closely tied to those two you're not likely to be effected by them either (whataboutism).

Religion is dying a slow death in liberal democracies, it's not popular, so the 'threat' of religion on our daily liberal lives is dwindling, so the 'threat' of islam to you or I is practically zero.

Harping on about the 'bad' of islam half a world away just gives irrational progressives ammo, and you'll just go around in circles.

You're right, it doesn't affect me.

I'm merely commenting on what's happening on the other side of the world, because the EU let millions of illegal immigrants(from Islamic countries) enter unchecked, hence the rise of the 'far-right'.

Sorry, but not wanting floods of illegals enter your country doesn't scream 'far-right' to me.

Persecuting minorities who arrive legitimately on the other hand, completely agree.

I don't think anyone's saying this'll happen in Australia because our immigration laws are quite stringent.

It's merely a social commentary of what's going on in Europe right now.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Even when it's the fault of white, far right extremists, it's still the Muslims' fault for making them do this.

Far right extremists are a minuscule percentile, it's amazing how the meeja sensationalizes the riots and everyone gets sucked in thinking this is a widespread mindset.

 

[Carringbush2010]

What reference to an Islamic State did I make? Or are you trying to paint me as a "far right" lunatic to support your agenda?

Have you been living under a rock? Or are you genuinely oblivious to the societal disharmony in the UK?

I don't have an agenda.

You said, 'tell that to the people of England', I'm going to fairly speculate that you think England has been 'taken over' and is no longer 'England'.

Would I be correct that this is your hyperbole?

 

[smish]

I don't have an agenda.

You said, 'tell that to the people of England', I'm going to fairly speculate that you think England has been 'taken over' and is no longer 'England'.

Would I be correct that this is your hyperbole?

Your post that I responded to was in reference to "societal threat", no?

I have no idea where you're getting this "take over" rubbish from.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You're right, it doesn't affect me.

I'm merely commenting on what's happening on the other side of the world, because the EU let millions of illegal immigrants(from Islamic countries) enter unchecked, hence the rise of the 'far-right'.

Sorry, but not wanting floods of illegals enter your country doesn't scream 'far-right' to me.

Persecuting minorities who arrive legitimately on the other hand, completely agree.

I don't think anyone's saying this'll happen in Australia because our immigration laws are quite stringent.

It's merely a social commentary of what's going on in Europe right now.

This is the thing, your post gives the impression that 'floods of illegals' brings a societal threat to the liberal democracies and also gives the impression that the 'far right' is also a societal threat.

The illegals by and large are escaping persecution and a shitty life, and by and large aren't going to push an agenda to threaten or 'change' the liberal democratic societies.

Sure, there's a minuscule percentile that do want to, but they'll have zero chance of doing so.

The phuqwit far right are also a minuscule percentile, they're not a threat to our way of life.

What your post does is give ammo to the irrational progressive and they'll claim you're racist or some such bullshit.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Your post that I responded to was in reference to "societal threat", no?

I have no idea where you're getting this "take over" rubbish from.

So what's the problem then? If there's no societal threat, what's your beef?

 

[bzparkes]

This is the thing, your post gives the impression that 'floods of illegals' brings a societal threat to the liberal democracies and also gives the impression that the 'far right' is also a societal threat.

The 'far-right' is anything right of centre(if that...) these days. Not much of a threat, at least in the UK, if Nigel Farrage(or whatever his name is) can only get 6 seats.

Same here in Aus with One Nation and affiliated parties.

The illegals by and large are escaping persecution and a shitty life, and by and large aren't going to push an agenda to threaten or 'change' the liberal democratic societies.

Irrelevant what they're fleeing. If they're not fleeing a warzone, or political persecution on their own country, then they are neither a refugee or asylum seeker. They are simply an illegal immigrant.

Plenty of it happens in Australia but that's due to people overstaying visas and as we're a landlocked country, I don't ever see it being an issue here.

Then there's also the numerous reports that many people who claim 'asylum' end up going back to their home countries to celebrate/holiday.

In my opinion, if you seek asylum, if you return home of your own volition for such a trivial reason, you should be refused entry when you return and sent back.

That's not what asylum is for.

You're also supposed to stop at the first port of entry, not country-hop to find a spot you want to settle.

Most of these people are taking the proverbial with their claims of 'asylum'.

Sure, there's a minuscule percentile that do want to, but they'll have zero chance of doing so.

It's already happened in secular and non-Islamic countries in the middle-east within the past 80 years. It's not a complete stretch to think it won't happen in other countries, whose native populations have declining birthrates, in a similar timeframe.

The phuqwit far right are also a minuscule percentile, they're not a threat to our way of life.

Well, that really depends, doesn't it? We've already seen Wade vs Roe repealed in the USA for a start. The Trump-loving Bible-bashers over there will certainly push for stricter laws and Trump will pander to them if it means he gets elected.

What your post does is give ammo to the irrational progressive and they'll claim you're racist or some such bullshit.

Oh, that's already happened. A lot.

 

[10571z]

It's quite odd that there's belief / fear among a few that islam is some sort of existential threat.

I can't get my head around how some (fortunately a minuscule percentile) have this fear.

There is no societal threat, we've seen 10 years ago, the islam that you're so afraid of did actually attempt a societal takeover (for want of a better term) and failed - dismally! < Thankfully.

So if there is no societal threat why do the same posters keep criticizing islam?

Does islam have archaic and theocratic principles that we abhor? Certainly yes, so what? How are you going to stop an ideology? More pertinent, an ideology that likely has zero effect on your daily liberal democratic life.

Can someone please explain this to me?

So what? Probably the same reason you wouldn’t want live in a town of homophobic and racist red neck bogans. People want to be around people of similar values. That’s why people move to certain areas and people vote similar ways in some parts.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Try telling that to the people of England

Its some of the people of a very very small part of England.

 

[Malifice]

Immigration doesn't necessarily help the incumbent population.

Dude, 96 percent of the incumbent population of Australia are either migrants (36 percent) or descended from them (the other 60 percent).

Half of all Aussies are either first or second generation migrants.

And increased immigration boosts the economy:

• In 2019, Australia had the highest share of migrants* in the OECD after Luxembourg, at 30 per cent of the population. This was more than twice the OECD average (14 per cent).
• Migrants boost the labour productivity of Australian‑born workers. On average, a region with a 10 per cent larger migrant share (e.g., 33 per cent instead of 30 per cent) has a 1.3 per cent larger regional wage difference, which indicates a positive link between migration and labour productivity.
• Migration boosts the employment of the Australian‑born population and does not affect its wages. A 1 percentage point rise in the annual migrant inflow (measured as share of the total population), on average, leads to a 0.53 per cent increase in the employment of the Australian‑born population. Australian‑born people of all skill levels, ages or genders benefit from this positive effect.
• Migration boosts patenting in Australia. On average, a one percentage point increase in the regional employment share of higher‑educated migrants (those with at least a college degree) relative to total employment leads to a 4.8 per cent rise in regional patent applications in the medium run (5 years). There is no effect of migration on trademarks or design rights applications.

https://population.gov.au/publications/research/oecd-findings-effects-migration-australias-economy#:~:text=Migrants boost the labour productivity,between migration and labour productivity.

Migration is an essential element in the success of Australia. In an economic sense, young skilled migrants helpmanage our otherwise ageing population, fill critical skills and labour shortages, and bring new ideas andinternational connections to help power the frontier elements of our economy. For every 1,000 migrants, there isa $124 million economic dividend each year to Australia

https://assets.nationbuilder.com/bc..._makes_Australia_stronger_-_AH.pdf?1691623323

In 2016 the Productivity Commission undertook modelling which showed that continuing Australia’s long-term trend of positive net overseas migration (factoring in the historical age profile) over the period to 2060:
- increased Australia’s GDP per person by around seven per cent compared to a scenario with zero net overseas migration.
- limited the increase in the share of the population aged 65 years and over to around 25 per cent, compared to 30 per cent with zero net overseas migration (and therefore assisted in dealing with the challenge of an ageing population).

https://assets.nationbuilder.com/bc..._makes_Australia_stronger_-_AH.pdf?1691623323

Seriously, read the paper I quoted above in the last two quotes.

People bitching about 'mass immigration' in a country like Australia (literally founded on mass immigration, with its wealth and GDP linked to migration, and populated by migrants and their children) do my head in.

 

[bzparkes]

Dude, 96 percent of the incumbent population of Australia are either migrants (36 percent) or descended from them (the other 60 percent).

Half of all Aussies are either first or second generation migrants.

And increased immigration boosts the economy:



https://population.gov.au/publications/research/oecd-findings-effects-migration-australias-economy#:~:text=Migrants boost the labour productivity,between migration and labour productivity.



https://assets.nationbuilder.com/bc..._makes_Australia_stronger_-_AH.pdf?1691623323



https://assets.nationbuilder.com/bc..._makes_Australia_stronger_-_AH.pdf?1691623323

Seriously, read the paper I quoted above in the last two quotes.

People bitching about 'mass immigration' in a country like Australia (literally founded on mass immigration, and populated by migrants and their children) do my head in.

Nobody's complaining about immigration to Australia, especially by legal means.

It does my head in that people charge into this thread and continuously miss this point.

 

[Malifice]

Even when it's the fault of white, far right extremists, it's still the Muslims' fault for making them do this.

Indeed.

 

[Malifice]

Nobody's complaining about immigration to Australia, especially by legal means.

Who mentioned illegal immigration?

Cookers were sooking about 'mass immigration' being bad for Australia. It's not.

Lets be honest here. No-one gives a shit about 'white' immigration (even the Illegal variety). No-one ever whines about Backpackers from Europe or International students overstaying visas and shit.

We have 70,000 Visa overstayers in Australia at present.

It's always 'brown people' and 'boat people' that cop it.

That's why I hate this thread. I hate having to defend a Religion that I personally abhor.

But I do it for two reasons. Firstly I believe everyone has the right to practice their religion (or lack thereof) in peace, free from the Government or anyone else restricting them, as long as it harms no-one else.

Secondly, the pushback against 'Muslims' usually comes from a Xenophobic and racist position, both positions that I utterly repudiate. That's why we have literal Neo Nazis, white nationalist thugs and similar burning down the UK at the moment. They want 'the brown people' out.

With reference to 'boat people' if the people on the boats were White British, fleeing a mass conflict in the UK, the discourse around them would be totally different. Heck, people would be throwing open their homes for those refugees, and there is no chance in hell we would be locking them up in camps offshore.

You see, it's not about 'protecting the border'. It's about keeping out the brown people.

If you deny that as the truth, we're not living in the same reality.

 

[bzparkes]

Who mentioned illegal immigration?

Everyone talking about 'mass' migration at some point in this thread.

It keeps getting twisted around by the white-knights though.

Cookers were sooking about 'mass immigration' being bad for Australia. It's not.

Again, migration that's not done properly is indeed bad for the incumbent population.

For instance, there's already a rental shortage in Australia. Would massively increasing migration here improve that, or make it even worse?

Bearing in mind that with all the builders currently going bankrupt, the housing construction industry isn't going to come even remotely close to the number of houses they targeted(around 1 million, I believe) over the next 4 years to keep up with the increasing population.

Not really the point that's being discussed here but that's one example of why it certainly could be considered having a negative effect on the incumbent population(which includes migrants, btw).

Lets be honest here. No-one gives a shit about 'white' immigration (even the Illegal variety). No-one ever whines about Backpackers from Europe or International students overstaying visas and shit.

White illegals generally aren't prone contribute to increasing rates of violent crimes in major cities, would be the main reason people tend not to complain about them. Feel free to bring up some examples where I may be wrong.

Having said that, people in the UK also complain a hell of a lot about the Polish, and they are indeed white.

We have 70,000 Visa overstayers in Australia at present.

It's always 'brown people' and 'boat people' that cop it.

Did you see how the Rohingya refugees were treated in Aceh, just last year? These were Muslims who arrived from Burma in Aceh, a Provence that is under Sharia law in Indonesia.

They welcomed them, then had to kick them out because they commit crimes and sexual assaults on the local population.

I don't see anyone claiming the people of Aceh kicking them out as racist but it suddenly is when whitey raises it as an issue.

That's why I hate this thread. I hate having to defend a Religion that I personally abhor.

Then don't? You're not obliged to be a SJW.

But I do it for two reasons. Firstly I believe everyone has the right to practice their religion (or lack thereof) in peace, free from the Government or anyone else restricting them, as long as it harms no-one else.

Yep, anyone reasonable can agree with this.

Secondly, the pushback against 'Muslims' usually comes from a Xenophobic and racist position, both positions that I utterly repudiate. That's why we have literal Neo Nazis, white nationalist thugs and similar burning down the UK at the moment. They want 'the brown people' out.

If you checked the statistics of knife-crime and sexual assaults against minors, you'd probably have a better understanding of why people are fed up.

Unfortunately, extreme right wing groups feed off this and eventually it ends up exploding.

I also find it completely ironic that people come into this thread and call right-winger a all kinds of names under the sun, yet defend at all costs a far-right wing ideology.

It's madness.

With reference to 'boat people' if the people on the boats were White British, fleeing a mass conflict in the UK, the discourse around them would be totally different. Heck, people would be throwing open their homes for those refugees, and there is no chance in hell we would be locking them up in camps offshore.

Well, we have a perfect and unfortunate example of this exact scenario: Ukraine.

Millions of people fled(mostly women and children) and apart from that English woman who lost her husband to a Ukrainian lady, as far as I am aware they haven't been forming gangs, committing violent crimes, gang-raping women(we saw this happen to an Australian woman on the eve of the Olympics, perpetrators identified as African, same thing happened at the Rugby world cup), etc. Most have even returned home to a warzone.

Please enlighten me as to if there's been any widespread issues with Ukrainian refugees. I'm genuinely curious. I'm not saying there hasn't been, I'm just saying I'm unaware of any.

You see, it's not about 'protecting the border'. It's about keeping out the brown people.

If you deny that as the truth, we're not living in the same reality.

Utter complete drivel. You're just seeing 'racism' because you want to.

What an embarrassing strawman to end your 'argument' on.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Dude, 96 percent of the incumbent population of Australia are either migrants (36 percent) or descended from them (the other 60 percent).

Half of all Aussies are either first or second generation migrants.

And increased immigration boosts the economy:



https://population.gov.au/publications/research/oecd-findings-effects-migration-australias-economy#:~:text=Migrants boost the labour productivity,between migration and labour productivity.



https://assets.nationbuilder.com/bc..._makes_Australia_stronger_-_AH.pdf?1691623323



https://assets.nationbuilder.com/bc..._makes_Australia_stronger_-_AH.pdf?1691623323

Seriously, read the paper I quoted above in the last two quotes.

People bitching about 'mass immigration' in a country like Australia (literally founded on mass immigration, with its wealth and GDP linked to migration, and populated by migrants and their children) do my head in.

OK, take the current population of Australia , immigrants and all.
Double it with more migrants.
The economy will improve. Will the standard of living improve?

That was my point.

Population based economy is actually the thing messing up the whole planet, what do you think the ultimate outcome will be?

 

[Carringbush2010]

The 'far-right' is anything right of centre(if that...) these days

That's from an irrational progressive point of view, not those sensibly centred.

Going to fairly assume you don't think anything centred of moderate right of the greens is 'far right'

So what? Probably the same reason you wouldn’t want live in a town of homophobic and racist red neck bogans. People want to be around people of similar values. That’s why people move to certain areas and people vote similar ways in some parts.

Towns aren't full racist redneck bogans, same as hard core islamists, both are a minuscule percentile.

People of differing cultures can peacefully co exist, Australia is a good example. Overwhelming by and large we live in a liberal democracy, just coz islamists live and co exist here, they don't pose a threat to our way of life.

The overwhelming majority of immigrants to liberal democracies tend to 'join in' and live by liberal principles, those that don't generally keep to themselves and aren't 'shoving their beliefs down our throats.

Irrelevant what they're fleeing. If they're not fleeing a warzone, or political persecution on their own country, then they are neither a refugee or asylum seeker. They are simply an illegal immigrant.

Plenty of it happens in Australia but that's due to people overstaying visas and as we're a landlocked country, I don't ever see it being an issue here.

Then there's also the numerous reports that many people who claim 'asylum' end up going back to their home countries to celebrate/holiday.

In my opinion, if you seek asylum, if you return home of your own volition for such a trivial reason, you should be refused entry when you return and sent back.

That's not what asylum is for.

You're also supposed to stop at the first port of entry, not country-hop to find a spot you want to settle.

Most of these people are taking the proverbial with their claims of 'asylum'.

Illegal immigration on this scale is a consequence of free wheeling liberalism and 'inclusion'. Not some hard left ideology that seems to be inferred.

I'm not advocating for illegal immigration just going through to the keeper, I'm just pointing out this sort of language will just invite the bleeding heart progressives with their labeling crap to try and cancel discussion coz of their 'feels'

It's already happened in secular and non-Islamic countries in the middle-east within the past 80 years.

Have you got evidence of any liberal democracy being turned into an islamic society?

Well, that really depends, doesn't it? We've already seen Wade vs Roe repealed in the USA for a start. The Trump-loving Bible-bashers over there will certainly push for stricter laws and Trump will pander to them if it means he gets elected.

Don't get sucked into the media, 'the rise of the far right' immediately gives the impression that it's a widespread threat, it isn't.

It's media clickbait, neither islam, the far right, the far left, any religion you can think of is a threat to liberal democracies.

The sensibly centred rule the roost, the way it should be.

Oh, that's already happened. A lot.

You might go 'meh', but the point is you and others are fueling the lefty 'feels' whingers. Why does that matter? Because the immediate reaction will be to label in order to cancel discussion for the sake of 'feels'

 

[Gralin]

If you're whinging about immigration in this thread you don't get to play the I mean all migrants card

 

[bzparkes]

Have you got evidence of any liberal democracy being turned into an islamic society?

Afghanistan was one( not sure how 'liberal' exactly but they claim to have been one) before the Taliban.

Lebanon could claim to be another. Although still a 'democracy', it's clear that Islamist group like Hezbollah are teh ones that hold sway over the country.