Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[CM86]

Either assimilate or return to your home country, before Australia and other first world countries are dragged down to the level of the country they fled. Mosques and schools are complete and utter wastes of real estate and promote their religious culture that is the reason they no longer live in their home country. It is akin to a Romanian who fled his horrid life under totalitarian communism only to begin a similar movement in London. Their culture - impacted by many things such as economic policy, warfare and religion - is the reason they move to a country like Australia or UK or Germany. To bring their ideologies with them is a spit in the face of the culture of their new home.

Do you think we should put more effort into helping people from Middle Eastern areas 'assimilate'?
Or do you think there is a just a level of incompatibility between these two groups, that cannot be overcome?


Do you believe that the people coming to Australia for a better life want to make the country more like the place they left?
Because that seems detrimental to them and their families future. Defeating the purpose of coming here.
Unless you believe that it's a deliberate action, in order to 'take over' these countries, when they 'become the majority'?

 

[10571z]

Do you think we should put more effort into helping people from Middle Eastern areas 'assimilate'?
Or do you think there is a just a level of incompatibility between these two groups, that cannot be overcome?


Do you believe that the people coming to Australia for a better life want to make the country more like the place they left?
Because that seems detrimental to them and their families future. Defeating the purpose of coming here.
Unless you believe that it's a deliberate action, in order to 'take over' these countries, when they 'become the majority'?

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/radical-western-sydney-preacher-delivers-warning-to-people-who-attack-islam/news-story/8b380293836a9b60845c759f35e40333?amp&nk=8326dd45debe611524a601af709ec00c-1735993265

Why’s this guy coming to Australia?

 

[CM86]

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/radical-western-sydney-preacher-delivers-warning-to-people-who-attack-islam/news-story/8b380293836a9b60845c759f35e40333?amp&nk=8326dd45debe611524a601af709ec00c-1735993265

Why’s this guy coming to Australia?

Before I look at the article I'll clarify.
I'm talking in general about the overwhelming majority. Not the radical extremists.

I'm assuming that this person is an extremist, as there is an article about them.
The article will be because it's so uncommon (at least openly or publicly).

 

[CM86]

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/radical-western-sydney-preacher-delivers-warning-to-people-who-attack-islam/news-story/8b380293836a9b60845c759f35e40333?amp&nk=8326dd45debe611524a601af709ec00c-1735993265

Why’s this guy coming to Australia?

I'm not going to sign up to the dailytele to read a Morrow article.

I'd argue that this isn't free speech, it's hate speech. And was rightly referred to the police.

 

[peetoo]

Probably coz it's likely not disliked per se, but media and social media narrative would have you believe that it is.

If you were to ask all of Jan and Joe public, they'd probably not like / dislike and would largely not give it the time of day.

Polls are too small a sample size to definitively say one way or the other.

I wouldn’t trust any poll or survey where they have to answer 90 questions. Hth are there 90 nuances to ask about

 

[sr36]

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/radical-western-sydney-preacher-delivers-warning-to-people-who-attack-islam/news-story/8b380293836a9b60845c759f35e40333?amp&nk=8326dd45debe611524a601af709ec00c-1735993265

Why’s this guy coming to Australia?

Like you, he's preaching division and setting us up for a segregated society with hostility between the segments.

I know you like to align progressives with Islam, but the reality is that preacher is a fellow conservative like you.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Yes, that's what he's pointing out.

That's why the working can't be shown.

Sorry, I didn't realise that people were actually expecting a response to that post because it was so clearly nonsense.

The comparison we are making is not between the insularness or hegemony of the country. But the culture and living standards of the country. They are not related.

By being more insular or hegemonic in Australia does not mean we will somehow magically turn into Pakistan or Afghanistan. Instead the reverse would happen, we would be more Australian.

It's a nonsense and the kind of logic that could only be spouted by an uneducated leftist fool. I laughed at it when I read it.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Sorry, I didn't realise that people were actually expecting a response to that post because it was so clearly nonsense.

The comparison we are making is not between the insularness or hegemony of the country. But the culture and living standards of the country. They are not related.

By being more insular or hegemonic in Australia does not mean we will somehow magically turn into Pakistan or Afghanistan. Instead the reverse would happen, we would be more Australian.

It's a nonsense and the kind of logic that could only be spouted by an uneducated leftist fool. I laughed at it when I read it.

Have you stocked up on the cheap plastic flags for Australia Day?

Or are you a different type of Australian?

 

[CM86]

Sorry, I didn't realise that people were actually expecting a response to that post because it was so clearly nonsense.

The comparison we are making is not between the insularness or hegemony of the country. But the culture and living standards of the country. They are not related.

By being more insular or hegemonic in Australia does not mean we will somehow magically turn into Pakistan or Afghanistan. Instead the reverse would happen, we would be more Australian.

It's a nonsense and the kind of logic that could only be spouted by an uneducated leftist fool. I laughed at it when I read it.

That's not what he was arguing.

He's talking about the logical optics of the argument.

How arguing that in order for Australia to avoid becoming more ideologically like Middle Eastern countries, we should adopt policies that are more in line with those same Middle Eastern countries.




What's a non-religious position/value of a Middle Eastern country that you think is so bad that we should restrict immigration from there, that isn't already being represented in some form here in Australia?

 

[FlowersByIrene]

That's not what he was arguing.

He's talking about the logical optics of the argument.

How arguing that in order for Australia to avoid becoming more ideologically like Middle Eastern countries, we should adopt policies that are more in line with those same Middle Eastern countries.




What's a non-religious position/value of a Middle Eastern country that you think is so bad that we should restrict immigration from there, that isn't already being represented in some form here in Australia?

Yeah exactly, the "optics" of the argument is not the outcome, that's one of the key differentiators between a leftist and a realist. I'm interested in culture and life being better in Australia, not the "optics" of any argument to get there.

 

[CM86]

Yeah exactly, the "optics" of the argument is not the outcome, that's one of the key differentiators between a leftist and a realist. I'm interested in culture and life being better in Australia, not the "optics" of any argument to get there.

Again, they weren't making an argument for an outcome.

They were contextualising what they find absurd about that kind of argument.


You don't have to answer this, I won't ask again. I'm just interested in your thoughts on it.

What's a non-religious position/value of a Middle Eastern country that you think is so bad that we should restrict immigration from there, that isn't already being represented in some form here in Australia?​

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Again, they weren't making an argument for an outcome.

They were contextualising what they find absurd about that kind of argument.


You don't have to answer this, I won't ask again. I'm just interested in your thoughts on it.

What's a non-religious position/value of a Middle Eastern country that you think is so bad that we should restrict immigration from there, that isn't already being represented in some form here in Australia?​

Cleanliness, petty crime, mob justice, gender based violence and control, sexual restrictions, religious justice, education standards etc etc, the differences are really endless.

And before you say: "but but there are already Australians who don't all live up to those standards". My response would be, we cannot kick out or discriminate those who are already Aystralian citizens, but that doesn't mean we should then compound the issue by brining in people whose culture does not align with Australia.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Again, they weren't making an argument for an outcome.

They were contextualising what they find absurd about that kind of argument.


You don't have to answer this, I won't ask again. I'm just interested in your thoughts on it.

​

What's a non-religious position/value of a Middle Eastern country that you think is so bad that we should restrict immigration from there, that isn't already being represented in some form here in Australia?​

Cleanliness, petty crime, mob justice, gender based violence and control, sexual restrictions, religious justice, education standards etc etc, the differences are really endless.

And before you say: "but but there are already Australians who don't all live up to those standards". My response would be, we cannot kick out or discriminate those who are already Aystralian citizens, but that doesn't mean we should then compound the issue by brining in people whose culture does not align with Australia.

I'm going to fairly assume Flowers, you mean two wrongs don't make a right? If so fair enough.

To the bolded though, why do cultures have to align? Why is this so important? I'll rebut why it isn't the must after you answer.

 

[CM86]

Cleanliness, petty crime, mob justice, gender based violence and control, sexual restrictions, religious justice, education standards etc etc, the differences are really endless.

And before you say: "but but there are already Australians who don't all live up to those standards". My response would be, we cannot kick out or discriminate those who are already Aystralian citizens, but that doesn't mean we should then compound the issue by brining in people whose culture does not align with Australia.

That wasn't really what I was asking, but I appreciate it.

So, continuing on with what you've said then.
If these things already exist in Australia, and are part of Australia. We aren't importing it.
So shouldn't we work on fixing the existing systems in order to reduce these 'un-Australian' outcomes. Rather than allow them to fester and grow, while focusing on immigration?

Side point.
If one of the positions/values of a Middle Eastern country that we don't want here in Australia, is homophobia.
Why do we defend prominent Australian's in position of power/influence from promoting homophobia?

We oppose it if it's coming from Afghanistan. We defend it as free speech etc if it's already here in Australia.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

I'm going to fairly assume Flowers, you mean two wrongs don't make a right? If so fair enough.

To the bolded though, why do cultures have to align? Why is this so important? I'll rebut why it isn't the must after you answer.

Thanks for the comment.

It's because culture = living standards. The more social cohesion a society has the higher its living standards. Degradation leads to more degradation. When people see litter on the floor they are more inclined to litter - because why not, it's already filthy. If people don't align with one another culturally, they are less inclined to support each other.

 

[Demons09]

Have you stocked up on the cheap plastic flags for Australia Day?

Or are you a different type of Australian?

Yeah i have no doubt you’ll be waving the Palestinian flag on Australia day.

 

[CM86]

Yeah i have no doubt you’ll be waving the Palestinian flag on Australia day.

Will you be spitting on Aboriginal children, telling them they're lucky you even let them stay in Australia, on Australia day?
No doubt.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

That wasn't really what I was asking, but I appreciate it.

So, continuing on with what you've said then.
If these things already exist in Australia, and are part of Australia. We aren't importing it.
So shouldn't we work on fixing the existing systems in order to reduce these 'un-Australian' outcomes. Rather than allow them to fester and grow, while focusing on immigration?

Side point.
If one of the positions/values of a Middle Eastern country that we don't want here in Australia, is homophobia.
Why do we defend prominent Australian's in position of power/influence from promoting homophobia?

We oppose it if it's coming from Afghanistan. We defend it as free speech etc if it's already here in Australia.

You're approaching this backwards. I assume because you have a globalist-lean, anti-colonialist or even anti-white racist tendencies im not sure. The point is you can address issues in Australian culture AND reduce immigration. Both would be helpful. Yet you propose a half measure, to attempt to address the issue at home while still compounding the issue by importing migrants who will not and cannot assimilate to Australian culture.

Imagine you had a young man, living at home on the way to obesity. He doesn't exercise. Eats a mixture of unhealthy and healthy food with his family, but then also sneaks out and has junk food every night. The clear response would be: cut out the junk food, increase exercise and attempt to tidy up the normal diet at home. Your argument above is: exercise, attempt to tidy up the diet at home, but still eat junk food every day.

And again I ask the question of you: why? Pity? Exceptionalism?

 

[FlowersByIrene]

That wasn't really what I was asking, but I appreciate it.

So, continuing on with what you've said then.
If these things already exist in Australia, and are part of Australia. We aren't importing it.
So shouldn't we work on fixing the existing systems in order to reduce these 'un-Australian' outcomes. Rather than allow them to fester and grow, while focusing on immigration?

Side point.
If one of the positions/values of a Middle Eastern country that we don't want here in Australia, is homophobia.
Why do we defend prominent Australian's in position of power/influence from promoting homophobia?

We oppose it if it's coming from Afghanistan. We defend it as free speech etc if it's already here in Australia.

On the topic of "homophobia". Free speech is essential to our culture and standard of living. Without it, autocratic and tyrannical elements in our Government would erode our freedoms and turn us into a broken State closer to Afghanistan or Pakistan.

 

[CM86]

The point is you can address issues in Australian culture AND reduce immigration.

Yes.
But what are we doing to address these issues? Why are we only focusing on immigration?

These issues are already here, and already active. So how can we blame or fear immigration based on what we already currently deal with?

Surely fixing the systems will benefit Australia and also prevent these issues possibly growing 'due to immigration'.
If the systems in place, work, then it's no longer a problem with immigration.

cannot assimilate to Australian culture.

Can you expand on this a bit?
I know it would be deemed racist etc etc. But do you think its some kind of genetic predisposition to being completely unable to assimilate?
What do you think it is that would mean that a people from one place "CANNOT" 'assimilate' to another place?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Yeah i have no doubt you’ll be waving the Palestinian flag on Australia day.

I predict you will be at least 100m away from schools.

 

[CM86]

On the topic of "homophobia". Free speech is essential to our culture and standard of living. Without it, autocratic and tyrannical elements in our Government would erode our freedoms and turn us into a broken State closer to Afghanistan or Pakistan.

But that's exactly my point.

The 'hateful' values/culture whatever of these countries is often pointed at as a reason not to accept immigration from there.
But the same values/culture whatever is defended here.

So if these un-Australian values are already accepted and defended here. Why are we worried that immigrants might share those values?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Thanks for the comment.

It's because culture = living standards. The more social cohesion a society has the higher its living standards. Degradation leads to more degradation. When people see litter on the floor they are more inclined to litter - because why not, it's already filthy. If people don't align with one another culturally, they are less inclined to support each other.

Thanks for your answer Flowers.

My rebuttal.

Cultures do not have to align to have peaceful co existence, to have the peaceful co existence (social cohesion as you put it) all we need to do is live and let live. As a society, we already do this, and it's not coz 'straya is easy goin' it's coz liberal democracy.

This democracy is the reason we live in the best country in the world and we have freedom to do whatever the phuq we like to the point that what we do doesn't impede on anyone else. There's law and order in place to maintain this wonderfully peaceful co existence.

The bolded is key.

And is the reason why, we don't have a degraded society, yeah sure you could put forward examples where allowing differing cultures to exist leads to where it goes awry, but the awry is the exception and not the rule. If it were the rule then our society would look dystopian, like your description, but it doesn't look that way.

So no, cultures do not have to align to achieve a harmonious liberal democracy. All the separate cultures have to do is not impede on anyone else.

 

[CM86]

Thanks for your answer Flowers.

My rebuttal.

Cultures do not have to align to have peaceful co existence, to have the peaceful co existence (social cohesion as you put it) all we need to do is live and let live. As a society, we already do this, and it's not coz 'straya is easy goin' it's coz liberal democracy.

This democracy is the reason we live in the best country in the world and we have freedom to do whatever the phuq we like to the point that what we do doesn't impede on anyone else. There's law and order in place to maintain this wonderfully peaceful co existence.

The bolded is key.

And is the reason why, we don't have a degraded society, yeah sure you could put forward examples where allowing differing cultures to exist leads to where it goes awry, but the awry is the exception and not the rule. If it were the rule then our society would look dystopian, like your description, but it doesn't look that way.

So no, cultures do not have to align to achieve a harmonious liberal democracy. All the separate cultures have to do is not impede on anyone else.

Well it's more than that.

Australian culture doesn't align with Australian culture.

There is an ideal of what it is. But outside of a few clichés, one persons definition of Australian culture could be very different from another.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Well it's more than that.

Australian culture doesn't align with Australian culture.

There is an ideal of what it is. But outside of a few clichés, one persons definition of Australian culture could be very different from another.

Absolutely.

So the question then begs what is Australian culture?

My tow cents, if we're all going to be completely honest, Australian culture isn't 'strayan, V8 utes, vic bitter and being a larrakin'. Australian culture should be indigenous culture, why? Because unless you're indigenous you're not really a true Australian, you're an immigrant, even if born here.

That's a bit blunt and will obviously grate some, I'll expect negative reaction to it.

Luckily though, the overwhelming majority of 'strayans', as I've described (which I am one) and all other strains of Australian culture (from the 'all for minorities at any cost' progressives to the 'don't pay much attention' centrists) are accepting of each other, any culture, including indigenous culture is welcome, whether you're indigenous or a new immigrant who doesn't speak english and anywhere in between.

Even if it looks divisive on the surface, it really isn't, if it were, we wouldn't be living in a free and liberal democracy.

Live and let live is what our society does, it doesn't demand you be a sterotypical bogan, it doesn't demand you integrate or assimilate.

That's why our society and liberal democracies around the world work so well.