Will you download the Covid19 app?

[PT Bar None]

"unprecedented security and privacy protections"

And it was developed so quickly too. Impressive.
(Engineers don't talk like that)

 

[Gralin]

They couldn't give that guarantee if an Australian firm was involved because it could still be hacked. They have made it a criminal offence to take the data outside Australia, so there's that at least.

They won't give that guarantee because they picked a US company. The question wasn't being asked because someone thought the US would hack the servers.
Over The Post explained it when it was announced that Amazon was hosting the app data repository

 

[Evolved1]

If the government charged people to download the app and an illegal copy was available to torrent, I'd at least consider it.

Given that it's free, it comes from the government, and the government tells me it's good...that's 3 strikes and out.

 

[BFew]

but I think they drafted this without realising the scale of people that would have phones 'owned' by someone else.

I call BS on that.

In this day and age, everyone working in legal in the public or private sector would be well aware of the extent of mobile fleets in both the public and private sector for employers of all sizes.

And those tasked with signing off on or reviewing the legislation would have debated how this would cover employer owned mobile devices and how they would deal with this in the wording of the legislation.

They likely had a couple of options of wording presented to them on this issue, and IMO, arrived at one that did not exclude anything, so that it could not be legally challenged as much as one that had any kinds of exclusions.

 

[BFew]

it's not explicitly outlined in the legislation as far as I could see. That, and the legislation hasn't even passed, as you rightly pointed out.

On 25 April 2020, the Health Minister made a determination under the Biosecurity Act 2015 (Cth), which sets out a range of restrictions to protect information collected by the app and to ensure use of the app is voluntary (Biosecurity Determination).

This 25 April 2020 determination (see below) is seperate from the legislation that is still to be passed.
The 25 April 2020 determination is already in force and does not depend on any legislation to be passed.

Federal Register of Legislation - Biosecurity (Human Biosecurity Emergency) (Human Coronavirus with Pandemic Potential) (Emergency Requirements—Public Health Contact Information) Determination 2020

www.legislation.gov.au

Biosecurity (Human Biosecurity Emergency) (Human Coronavirus with Pandemic Potential) (Emergency Requirements—Public Health Contact Information) Determination 2020
I, Greg Hunt, Minister for Health, make the following determination.
Dated 25 April 2020

...
9 Coercing the use of COVIDSafe
(1) A person must not require that another person:
(a) download COVIDSafe to a mobile telecommunications device; or
(b) have COVIDSafe in operation on a mobile telecommunications device; or
(c) consent to uploading COVID app data from a mobile telecommunications device to the National COVIDSafe Data Store.

(2) A person must not:
(a) refuse to enter into, or continue, a contract or arrangement with another person (including a contract of employment); or
(b) take adverse action (within the meaning of the Fair Work Act 2009) against another person; or
(c) refuse to allow another person to enter premises; or
(d) refuse to allow another person to participate in an activity; or
(e) refuse to receive goods or services from another person; or
(f) refuse to provide goods or services to another person;

on the ground that, or on grounds that include the ground that, the other person:
(g) has not downloaded COVIDSafe to a mobile telecommunications device; or
(h) does not have COVIDSafe in operation on a mobile telecommunications device; or
(i) has not consented to uploading COVID app data from a mobile telecommunications device to the National COVIDSafe Data Store.

 

[BFew]

Now you've all seen the in force determination that Minister Greg Hunt made 25 Apr 2020, it's not hard to understand why he was the one today whose department is currently dealing with Stratfield Council on their illegally forcing staff to download the COVIDSafe App in 100% contravention of 9(1) A, to which there are no exclusions. None whatsoever. You can't get clearer than that in legal terms!

 

[Hawk Dork]

"South Korea’s Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC) runs the contact tracing system that uses data from 28 organizations such as National Police Agency, The Credit Finance Association, three smartphone companies, and 22 credit card companies to trace the movement of individuals with COVID-19.
This system takes 10 minutes to analyze the movement of the infected individuals.
For people who come in contact with an infected person, the KCDC informs the local public health center near the infected citizen’s residence and the health center sends the notification to them.
If they test positive, they are hospitalized at the COVID-19 special facilities.
Those without symptoms are asked to remain self-quarantined for 14 days. "

How South Korea flattened the coronavirus curve with technology

In addition to testing and special facilities for COVID-19 patients, the country’s government-run tracking system allows the health care system to identify infected people and their contacts.

theconversation.com

 

[JackOutback]

They won't give that guarantee because they picked a US company. The question wasn't being asked because someone thought the US would hack the servers.
Over The Post explained it when it was announced that Amazon was hosting the app data repository

I’m aware of that. Just pointing out that no one would give a 100 per cent guarantee under any circumstances.

 

[BFew]

Some more useful info from the Federal Government on the bluetooth issues with the COVIDSafe app on iPhones.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Government officials behind the COVIDSafe app have admitted the contact-tracing tool has faults, declaring its performance is “highly variable” on iPhones but still helpful to health authorities....
Digital Transformation Agency CEO Randall Brugeaud warned that while the $1.5m app was being “constantly improved”, the quality of bluetooth connectivity “progressively deteriorates” when iPhones are locked and the app is running in the background.
“I cannot provide a view that the app will work 100 per cent of the time with all handsets where the devices are locked,” Mr Brugeaud said. “There will be circumstances where the app does not capture a bluetooth handshake.”

He flagged that Australia would be “one of the first” adopters of the application programming interface developed by Apple and Google to fix Bluetooth issues and improvements would continue to be rolled out.
“Within a fortnight or thereabouts — it depends on the timing of the Apple Bluetooth release — the performance will be as good in locked phones as it is in unlocked phones,” he said.

 

[Gralin]

I’m aware of that. Just pointing out that no one would give a 100 per cent guarantee under any circumstances.

But the question was about whether US authorities would access the data, not hack it
There is a difference

 

[JackOutback]

But the question was about whether US authorities would access the data, not hack it
There is a difference

It was a loaded question though. It’s illegal to take take the data out of Australia, so the only way the US could get access to it now is via illegal means.

If it was run by an Australian company and they were asked to provide a 100 per cent guarantee, they wouldn’t do so either.

 

[Gralin]

It was a loaded question though. It’s illegal to take take the data out of Australia, so the only way the US could get access to it now is via illegal means.

If it was run by an Australian company and they were asked to provide a 100 per cent guarantee, they wouldn’t do so either.

It's not that simple and you're ignoring the reality of being on Amazon servers and the Aussie Government is trying to gloss over it.

And don't forget this isn't the only system they've decided to put on Amazon.

 

[Evolved1]

It's not that simple and you're ignoring the reality of being on Amazon servers and the Aussie Government is trying to gloss over it.

And don't forget this isn't the only system they've decided to put on Amazon.

What's the reasoning behind using Amazon servers?
Is it purely financial?

 

[Gralin]

What's the reasoning behind using Amazon servers?
Is it purely financial?

They signed a deal. Amazon are the #1 player in this space too. Most of the world has sold their soul to Bezos
Everything is on AWS these days

 

[craigos]

I love how they admit there's issues with it but hey it's still helpful to authorities even if it doesn't work. This is quickly becoming an own goal.

 

[BFew]

I love how they admit there's issues with it but hey it's still helpful to authorities even if it doesn't work. This is quickly becoming an own goal.

I'll consider downloading and using it again, when it works properly on iPhone, and the legislation in relation to it has passed thru parliament.

Edit: And definitely not before they have released the source code publicly and it has been analysed/tested and any further issues in the App to add to the big ones to date, are fixed and the source code is resent for public analysis and tested again to ensure the identified material issues are fixed.

 

[Billy ray]

i think most of the people not downloding it are either cheating on their partners, meeting with drug dealers, drug dealers themselves, or think they lead lives like leading characters in hollywood movies. no one in govt is interested in your mundane lives...

 

[Engimal v3]

What's the reasoning behind using Amazon servers?
Is it purely financial?

Pretty much. Infrastructure as a Service (IaaS) is huge right now, and Amazon, Microsoft and Google have their foot on everyone else's throats.
At a quick search, Amazon made $40bil+ USD in revenue from IaaS alone last year.

 

[Engimal v3]

i think most of the people not downloding it are either cheating on their partners, meeting with drug dealers, drug dealers themselves, or think they lead lives like leading characters in hollywood movies. no one in govt is interested in your mundane lives...

Right now the app isn't functional, there is no guarantee of data safety and it'll reduce operational use of your phone.

If there was a single incentive for me to download it, I'd consider it. Truly and honesty though, there is not.

 

[Gigantic]

i think most of the people not downloding it are either cheating on their partners, meeting with drug dealers, drug dealers themselves, or think they lead lives like leading characters in hollywood movies. no one in govt is interested in your mundane lives...

Not many people are interested in my salary either, yet I keep that secret. Same goes for my health history, religious beliefs, political opinions etc etc.

I close the bathroom door when I'm in the shower or on the toilet even when there's no one else home (quite frankly, I'd suspect there'd be a lot who do otherwise haha)

There's a whole multitude of things I'd rather do behind closed doors or not reveal to anyone. Even if no one is interested in the shit that I do.

 

[Gough]

Not many people are interested in my salary either, yet I keep that secret. Same goes for my health history, religious beliefs, political opinions etc etc.

I close the bathroom door when I'm in the shower or on the toilet even when there's no one else home (quite frankly, I'd suspect there'd be a lot who do otherwise haha)

There's a whole multitude of things I'd rather do behind closed doors or not reveal to anyone. Even if no one is interested in the shit that I do.

Come to the light brother, having a dump in an empty house with the door open is one of the joys of the living.

 

[Gigantic]

Come to the light brother, having a dump in an empty house with the door open is one of the joys of the living.

Taking a dump while my dog is looking me square in the eyes asking for snacks is something I'd rather never have to do again.

 

[craigos]

i think most of the people not downloding it are either cheating on their partners, meeting with drug dealers, drug dealers themselves, or think they lead lives like leading characters in hollywood movies. no one in govt is interested in your mundane lives...

It's not necessarily yourself that you only have to worry about. You might have a dodgy mate (we all do) that you really don't know is selling large volumes of pills. All of a sudden your phone is frequently paired with his and you are being asked to explain the money in your bank account.

 

[Billy ray]

It's not necessarily yourself that you only have to worry about. You might have a dodgy mate (we all do) that you really don't know is selling large volumes of pills. All of a sudden your phone is frequently paired with his and you are being asked to explain the money in your bank account.

i can explain every dollar in my bank account - only thing that goes in is a single line a fortnight saying salary with my employer.
i dont do cash deposits - do people still do that? like go into banks?
money going out of my bank account - i watch that even more closer, every day i look at transactions to make sure i havent been fleeced or skimmed - much easier now to watch my outgoings that im divorced and the (ex) wife doesnt have a shared credit card account

 

[BFew]

I'll consider downloading and using it again, when it works properly on iPhone, and the legislation in relation to it has passed thru parliament.

Edit: And definitely not before they have released the source code publicly and it has been analysed/tested and any further issues in the App to add to the big ones to date, are fixed and the source code is resent for public analysis and tested again to ensure the identified material issues are fixed.

Un-appy, Scott: flaws and inconsistencies start to mount for troubled surveillance app

The haste with which the government has rushed out its surveillance app means flaws are now emerging that could be exploited by stalkers and domestic abusers.

www.crikey.com.au

Need I say more!