Year end list management - Who would you delist?

[PepperFace]

Well Sidebottom and Greenwood are not back yet

No. But close

 

[TradeDraft]

No. But close

When they come back. That is when Dwyer is not really needed

 

[Apex36]

I'm just repeating what I read in one of the papers, where the journalist said that the education program about what you just mentioned only started this year, and that that was a mitigating factor. We'll see how it plays out, but I'd still count that as accidental rather than deliberate.

That journalist had no idea then. Doesn't matter if it's accidental, doesn't matter if the player had been educated about Clen being cut into rec drugs.

They put an knowingly substance in their body without knowing what the ingredients were (if it indeed was coke cut with Clen). They are 100% responsible for that, and as such will be hit with full penalties.

 

[Knightmare]

Knightmare i generally like your analysis of things but think that you have cconsistently been very harsh on Caff, both as a player, and at the idea of a Tagger. Lets not forget both Freo and St Kilda got to recent Grand Finals with a true tagger, and the dominant Geelong teams used Lingy primarily in that role (though with the extra quality offensively that a player of his standard also brings)
Any midfield needs to find the right balance. Our midfield since 2010 has been very one-sided with only Ball who provided much inside work, and a few players who got away with providing very little defensively. I think Caff was turned into a tagger at a time when we desperately needed it.

Now the need for a tagger will hopefully be less with Adams, Crisp and Greenwood (when he returns) all able to provide more of that grunt... But i still think there will be times when a true negating player (either in the midfield or on a loose half back) would give us a better matchup on the opponent, and i would like Caff to remain a part of the rotation even if its just to have that option. (but i also think he could provide that defensive presence either in the midfield or forward line, and has also shown that he can take marks and kick goals if used as a small-medium forward)... His contracts been extended for a year and i am happy for him to have that opportunity to push his way back into the 22.

Caff was a suitable role player in 2010. But since has not been of any usefulness to winning.

The Collingwood midfield this year looks arguably better this year than it did last year, and that's without Beams and Ball who were two of our best four mids. We're winning more contested ball, tackling more, and winning more clearances.

Fremantle is the other case study I recommend looking at this year with Crowley gone. Fremantle are playing the best football they have ever played in the history of the club this season. Their contested ball winning numbers are clearance differential has greatly improved with Crowley gone which allows greater opportunities for the likes of Mundy and Neale to go through there as further ball winners.

Playing a tagger is conceding you will lose a matchup and the result is that player focuses too much on limiting their direct opponents influence, without having any influence themselves. And this is made most obvious when you look at teams with negating mids and looking at clearance differentials with that player in the team v when they're not in the team. Additional to this, you've got other team mates around the ground trying actively to support the role of the tagger, by making things harder for the individual of the opposition team that is being tagged, and the result invariably is that the other mids on that team perform better than they otherwise will.

Fremantle and St Kilda I would argue would both have been better teams without taggers.

On Cameron Ling as a tagger. He and I'd list Kane Cornes as another, both I would consider very good examples of good and worthwhile taggers. And they're the only two I would deem worthwhile. The reason both were worthwhile taggers is because they both found the footy and were involved offensively, while also slightly limiting the output of their direct opponents.

For some perspective. Caff had less than 300 disposals last year. Cameron Ling averaged if you eliminate his 2000/2001 seasons around 500 disposals per year and 100 marks. Same story with Kane Cornes who averaged if you eliminate his 2001/2002/2003/2015 seasons he averaged nearly 600 disposals per season and well in excess of 100 marks per season.
Additionally from a clearance perspective. Macaffer had a poor 33 clearances last season. Ling and Cornes as established taggers were managing roughly twice as many clearances per game. And from a clearance differential perspective unlike Macaffer's 2014 Collingwood team which under Nathan has never been worse from a clearance perspective, Geelong and Port Adelaide with Ling and Cornes respectively were both excellent clearance sides.

So my view is that it's fine to be a two way midfielder, and able to limit a guys influence slightly if you're also racking up equal or better numbers. Otherwise forget it. And Macaffer for all those reasons is in the forget it category.

In terms of what we desperately need through the midfield. What we need is more star power. That's what will make our midfield better. Putting Macaffer into this midfield will only make us worse and significantly less competitive around the ball and at stoppages.

 

[Knightmare]

Macaffer is contracted....and why the love for young he WAS a good player.....not at the pies unfortunately

Young has been mostly injured with the Pies. But when on the field for meters gained has been outside of Seedsman the only other player capable of moving the footy with any tempo to be hard to defend.

Young last year was number one in the competition for meters gained per disposal. That's pretty useful as a guy who can and most of the time does kick long, but then also really runs and covers the ground quickly, has strength overhead and tackles strongly. There is a place in this team for that.

I'd play Young ahead of Varcoe for example with Varcoe less productive and significantly less damaging given he isn't as long of a kick and despite his pace not much of a run and carry player. On Young where he fits, I still have him (just) inside our best 22.

 

[DAWESOME!!]

Often with Young's metres gained, those metres would then be immediately lost because he kicked long but inaccurately and it would produce a turn over.

 

[TradeDraft]

Young has been mostly injured with the Pies. But when on the field for meters gained has been outside of Seedsman the only other player capable of moving the footy with any tempo to be hard to defend.

Young last year was number one in the competition for meters gained per disposal. That's pretty useful as a guy who can and most of the time does kick long, but then also really runs and covers the ground quickly, has strength overhead and tackles strongly. There is a place in this team for that.

I'd play Young ahead of Varcoe for example with Varcoe less productive and significantly less damaging given he isn't as long of a kick and despite his pace not much of a run and carry player. On Young where he fits, I still have him (just) inside our best 22.

I would have Varcoe ahead of Young. Varcoe hit’s his Man where Young just kicks it long

 

[Knightmare]

Often with Young's metres gained, those metres would then be immediately lost because he kicked long but inaccurately and it would produce a turn over.

It's part of the equation with Young. You're right. He can turn it over.

But with his kicking efficiency in both years with the Pies above 70%. That's pretty good for such an extremely long kick who looks so often to go so extremely long. So you're getting more meaningful drive than you are bad turnovers.

 

[Finnishpie]

That journalist had no idea then. Doesn't matter if it's accidental, doesn't matter if the player had been educated about Clen being cut into rec drugs.

They put an knowingly substance in their body without knowing what the ingredients were (if it indeed was coke cut with Clen). They are 100% responsible for that, and as such will be hit with full penalties.

Thats 4 years then.

 

[mike123]

It's part of the equation with Young. You're right. He can turn it over.

But with his kicking efficiency in both years with the Pies above 70%. That's pretty good for such an extremely long kick who looks so often to go so extremely long. So you're getting more meaningful drive than you are bad turnovers.

You realise when you kick it over 40 metres you only have to get it to a one on one contest for it to be deemed an efficient kick.

 

[sr36]

You realise when you kick it over 40 metres you only have to get it to a one on one contest for it to be deemed an efficient kick.

A midfielder running 10 metres and then kicking it 60 to a one on one is pretty much a dream forward entry. Unfortunately with us for 2 years it was a case of Young kicking it 60 to a Cloke against 3.

 

[Bard]

A midfielder running 10 metres and then kicking it 60 to a one on one is pretty much a dream forward entry. Unfortunately with us for 2 years it was a case of Young kicking it 60 to a Cloke against 3.

Sometimes Young isn't accurate but gee if the ball goes in the air 60 metres to a one on one and we outright lose possession, it's not his fault. If it goes over the boundary line then sure, whatever, you can't blame our man, but if he's getting outmarked (and is presumably a forward) then it's his fault 9 times out of 10 and not Young's.

 

[THATSGOLD]

When do we find out officially that Thomas and Keffee copped bans?

 

[didaksrightfoot]

When do we find out officially that Thomas and Keffee copped bans?

We need to wait for them to have a hearing, which won't happen until Crowley's stuff is finished... so might still be a while.

I think it is likely that there is stuff happening behind the scenes but that the boys (as it is their right) have asked that it all be kept confidential until and actual judgement comes down. (And the less attention on this, the better for the club)

 

[pablo disco bar]

Should we chase shultz from port and minson??

 

[jmac70]

When do we find out officially that Thomas and Keffee copped bans?

When they are found guilty.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I dont have a problem with what Young can do on the field. Its the getting on to the field that has been the issue.

 

[pablo disco bar]

Should we chase shultz from port and minson??

Should we?

 

[loki04]

Should we chase shultz from port and minson??

Port are closer to a flag then we are so don't see him leaving.

 

[NT.Thunder]

Should we?

Definite no on Minson from me.

Schulz I'm undecided on. If we can't get another good KPF through trading than yes I think we should but I do worry that his age doesn't help us for when we are looking at realistically challenging for a flag. Bringing him in I think makes us a top 5-8 side when fit but won't push us up those next few spots once our young crew in DG, Scharenberg, Kennedy, Broomhead etc reach their best years of football.

Both a little meh for me.

 

[loki04]

Senior delistment.
Thomas
Keeffe

Rookie.
Armstrong
Gault

Possible retirements.
Young

Possible trade.
Fasolo
Sinclair
Witts

Think Swan will play his contract out so end of 16.

From all reports this draft is on the weaker side for talent with next years draft seen as the more talented crop.

16 delistings will cut a bit deeper imo with minimal changes this year.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I dont have a problem with what Young can do on the field. Its the getting on to the field that has been the issue.

He's rubbish and has been since he arrived at Collingwood. He would be delisted if he had stayed with Hawthorn by now. Gone so far backwards the game has pasted him by.

 

[THATSGOLD]

We need to wait for them to have a hearing, which won't happen until Crowley's stuff is finished... so might still be a while.

I think it is likely that there is stuff happening behind the scenes but that the boys (as it is their right) have asked that it all be kept confidential until and actual judgement comes down. (And the less attention on this, the better for the club)

The season will be over if they are found not guilty by the time they know so either way they have missed large chunks of footy.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I'll be surprised if Swan plays on another year, see how he can handle this season first but we all know Buckley prefers to retire players off early rather than continue to let them play on.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

He's rubbish and has been since he arrived at Collingwood. He would be delisted if he had stayed with Hawthorn by now. Gone so far backwards the game has pasted him by.

Injury has ruined his career and therefore it was a fail to recruit him. Collingwood being at a different stage of development than Hawthorn brought him in as cheap depth, and its irrelevant what Hawthorn would have done with him. We know what they have done with him, they traded him. They also traded Josh Kennedy too.

For Collingwood its no biggie that it didnt work out.