Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[Cleric]

Quite simple really, for NM and StK (and add in WB and Melbourne)... for decades they've gotten prop-up funding (ie: more than their share of the money pot) that keeps them alive.. without it they'd have merged, relocated or gone belly-up. The "they shall survive" attitude of the AFL toward those 4 clubs resulted in the creation of 2 more dependant clubs in GC & GWS when relocation was the obvious choice. Up to 8 of the current 18 are dependant on the AFL for their survival... Tassie will be another.

How long will the Centrelink model be sustainable...

The AFL is rolling in cash, so they will kept alive for as long as it takes.

I have no doubt that if Noth went to the AFL and said they wanted to merge with Tassie the AFL would trip over themselves to make it happen, but they don't want to do anything to upset the Victorian supporter base and media.

 

[kranky al]

That was clubs overspending in a chase for flags, now all vic clubs are doing ok, the lowest member base (north) has 50k members.

Something you'll have to deal with.

What killed the wafl and sanfl (even though they're not dead and flourishing) was the fans leaving in droves as soon as wc, ade, freo and port came along, and previously, your best players and coaches leaving for the vfl, fans didn't like it, and are still sooking to this day about it.

If you all didn't sook and stuck phat with your local club and league, you'd only be complaining about your best leaving for the vfl.

Now those fans continue to throw the toys outta the cot because of vic bias, you all shoulda stuck with your very very good state comps, but nnoooooo, had to dump your local clubs for brand new clubs in an expanded vfl, and now complain about it.

Why did you all do that?

The numbers were already gone before the afl was a thing

That was clubs overspending in a chase for flags, now all vic clubs are doing ok, the lowest member base (north) has 50k members.

Something you'll have to deal with.

What killed the wafl and sanfl (even though they're not dead and flourishing) was the fans leaving in droves as soon as wc, ade, freo and port came along, and previously, your best players and coaches leaving for the vfl, fans didn't like it, and are still sooking to this day about it.

If you all didn't sook and stuck phat with your local club and league, you'd only be complaining about your best leaving for the vfl.

Now those fans continue to throw the toys outta the cot because of vic bias, you all shoulda stuck with your very very good state comps, but nnoooooo, had to dump your local clubs for brand new clubs in an expanded vfl, and now complain about it.

Why did you all do that?

What is your major malfunction?

I clearly outlined that losing your best players year after year took the joy out of it.

Try imagining watching Collingwood year after year but every time a Pendlebury / swan / daicos etc stuck their head up… they were poached and went interstate to play.

BY THE TIME - the eagles started the wafl was broke. The eagles and then the dockers as well are what funds the wafl…

Ffs it’s like speaking to a goldfish with you.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

The numbers were already gone before the afl was a thing

What is your major malfunction?

I clearly outlined that losing your best players year after year took the joy out of it.

Try imagining watching Collingwood year after year but every time a Pendlebury / swan / daicos etc stuck their head up… they were poached and went interstate to play.

BY THE TIME - the eagles started the wafl was broke. The eagles and then the dockers as well are what funds the wafl…

Ffs it’s like speaking to a goldfish with you.

Not sure why you, or any others bother really.
Just continue to highlight the hypocrisy and ignore the ignorant.
The amount of time they have to invest in this thread suggests they're AFL plants.

 

[peetoo]

Once brisbane and Hobart gets nice new stadiums all states will have benefitted from AFL patronage.
It wouldn’t really have happened without AFL

In Victoria we got Marvel, which isn’t really what fans wanted.

MCG grand final small price to pay really

 

[doppleganger]

What's the bet Port and GWS will both play Hawthorn in tassie.

Just checked, it's Port, GWS and Adelaide.
How utterly predictable.

Yes Hawks only get 6 of their 11 home games at the MCG, their preferred home ground.

That is predictable.

I know there's a lot of things to consider when setting the fixture but it sure does seem to come at the expense of the "interstate" teams

Surely it is Hawthorn who are disadvantaged by having to get on a plane, be away from family, sleep in hotels and not play in front of fans for a HOME GAME.

But no, the VICBias position is it is unfair to Port that they get to play the Hawks at a ground outside of Victoria where Hawks are travelling and sleeping in hotels. It would be better for Port to play Hawks at the G, where Hawks players have not travelled and are sleeping in their own beds.

All because they think playing a random game at the G in July will somehow make a difference if they can get to a GF.

 

[peetoo]

They’ll be playing more Tassie games soon, as will all teams.

Adding more non Melbourne teams increasing travel overall?don’t think it’s deliberate

 

[kranky al]

Yes Hawks only get 6 of their 11 home games at the MCG, their preferred home ground.

That is predictable.


Surely it is Hawthorn who are disadvantaged by having to get on a plane, be away from family, sleep in hotels and not play in front of fans for a HOME GAME.

But no, the VICBias position is it is unfair to Port that they get to play the Hawks at a ground outside of Victoria where Hawks are travelling and sleeping in hotels. It would be better for Port to play Hawks at the G, where Hawks players have not travelled and are sleeping in their own beds.

All because they think playing a random game at the G in July will somehow make a difference if they can get to a GF.

Who chose to do that?

Hawthorn…..

We wanna play them at the g so we can maybe if we are reallly lucky we can get 2 games at the g all year…..




Btw - what’s hawthorn and norms win loss ratio at tassie?

 

[Carringbush2010]

I clearly outlined that losing your best players year after year took the joy out of it.

Try imagining watching Collingwood year after year but every time a Pendlebury / swan / daicos etc stuck their head up… they were poached and went interstate to play.

BY THE TIME - the eagles started the wafl was broke. The eagles and then the dockers as well are what funds the wafl…

Ffs it’s like speaking to a goldfish with you.

It's not that I don't understand Kranky, I'm trying to get through to you it's a fact of life that the best will go to the best.

That doesn't justify the public just dumping their 100+ yo clubs to only then jump on brand new created clubs in a league on the other side of the continent to only complain about it, to this day.

If the public stuck phat then you'd only be complaining about players / coaches leaving. It's the only choice you all had, accept this new league or accept your best leaving your clubs / league. One or the other, you all jumped on a foreign league and now complain about it, to this day.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Market doesn't dictate that at all. If there had have been an IPL, World Series Cricket, LIV golf type of thing poaching the best players from the Vic teams - Vic fans would have gone with that like the SA and WA fans did - it's just the way it goes. Fans follow the best.

And because the current clubs that vic fans follow are already embedded for well over 100+ years they ain't gonna just all of a sudden jump on a brand new franchise, they'd follow where their interest is, in their clubs.

Would you dump Collingwood for a brand new whatever it's called club that represents vic? Yeah didn't think so.

 

[sr36]

It's not that I don't understand Kranky, I'm trying to get through to you it's a fact of life that the best will go to the best.

That doesn't justify the public just dumping their 100+ yo clubs to only then jump on brand new created clubs in a league on the other side of the continent to only complain about it, to this day.

Yes it does. Vics did it with VFA teams and would do it with VFL teams if there was a better standard with teams from Victoria in it. The best go to the best and everyone watches the best.

 

[peetoo]

Who chose to do that?

Hawthorn…..

We wanna play them at the g so we can maybe if we are reallly lucky we can get 2 games at the g all year…..

View attachment 2252696


Btw - what’s hawthorn and norms win loss ratio at tassie?

Currently it’s 75%

Also neck and neck with Essendon best win ratio at MCG over 56%

 

[sr36]

And because the current clubs that vic fans follow are already embedded for well over 100+ years they ain't gonna just all of a sudden jump on a brand new franchise, they'd follow where their interest is, in their clubs.

Would you dump Collingwood for a brand new whatever it's called club that represents vic? Yeah didn't think so.

I followed Williamstown a lot more closely than the Pies when I was a kid due to some connections there, so yeah I probably would have. I'm 50 now, I'd keep following the Pies, but I'm now not the future of the footy market and I would watch the Vic teams in a super league and if it was a better standard I would probably end up valuing it more and caring more about it - it's the way it goes everywhere. If you think Vics are somehow exceptional whereby we wouldn't have done what the SA and WA footy fans have done in the same circumstances - then you're kidding yourself. Of course we would have barracked for the vic teams if there was a super league formed and of course it would have become more of a focus than the VFL if it was a higher standard. And most kids coming through - absolutely no shadow of a doubt where there attention would be - it wouldn't be the lesser league.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Yes it does. Vics did it with VFA teams and would do it with VFL teams if there was a better standard with teams from Victoria in it. The best go to the best and everyone watches the best.

Well the vfl would be the best because that's where the public interest is i:e the money.

The only way to take away the public interest from the traditional clubs would be to force it with dollars, force the best into brand new franchises. Pretty certain that the AFL aren't willing to go down that path.

If there was brand new created vic franchise clubs to compete in a national comp, not many if any are just gonna dump their clubs, the best players and coaches are gonna stay where the money is, provided by the public.

The VFA and the VFL co existed for decades, and for decades we used to watch Freddy Cook kicking bags on Sunday and watching the Pies v South at Vic Park on Saturday.

The public didn't just dump their VFA clubs like a toxic ex overnight like the WA and SA public did with their state league, you're comparing apples and oranges.

 

[sr36]

Well the vfl would be the best because that's where the public interest is i:e the money.

The only way to take away the public interest from the traditional clubs would be to force it with dollars, force the best into brand new franchises. Pretty certain that the AFL aren't willing to go down that path.

If there was brand new created vic franchise clubs to compete in a national comp, not many if any are just gonna dump their clubs, the best players and coaches are gonna stay where the money is, provided by the public.

The VFA and the VFL co existed for decades, and for decades we used to watch Freddy Cook kicking bags on Sunday and watching the Pies v South at Vic Park on Saturday.

The public didn't just dump their VFA clubs like a toxic ex overnight like the WA and SA public did with their state league, you're comparing apples and oranges.

It's not an overnight dumping we're talking about here. It's gradually footy fans becoming less interested. And it's exactly what Vics did with the VFA once footy became a tv sport without the same localised community connections that footy clubs once had.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I followed Williamstown a lot more closely than the Pies when I was a kid due to some connections there, so yeah I probably would have. I'm 50 now, I'd keep following the Pies, but I'm now not the future of the footy market and I would watch the Vic teams in a super league and if it was a better standard I would probably end up valuing it more and caring more about it - it's the way it goes everywhere. If you think Vics are somehow exceptional whereby we wouldn't have done what the SA and WA footy fans have done in the same circumstances - then you're kidding yourself. Of course we would have barracked for the vic teams if there was a super league formed and of course it would have become more of a focus than the VFL if it was a higher standard. And most kids coming through - absolutely no shadow of a doubt where there attention would be - it wouldn't be the lesser league.

Again, the only way to make a national comp with brand new franchise the more popular is to force it, it can't happen organically.

I know you're not gonna just dump Collingwood because 'hey look a new club in a national comp, that's taken my interest away from Collingwood' - footy fans are not zombies, they won't be told 'take interest in the national comp and dump your old club, coz we said so'.

There's a reason there's no franchise vic clubs in the AFL, coz no one would be interested. There's a reason the AFL has all the old vfl clubs, coz a national comp wouldn't get the same public interest without them.

 

[Choogler]

the leagues financial position is not dependent on teams joining any more, nor has it ever really depended on revenue from WA for anything. And ceased to be in 1987 with the 5 year deal.

I'm not sure you have a very informed or realistic insight on why the VFL expansion happened. The facts are that, at the time, the VFL needed it more than WA footy did because the VFL's financial position was so desperate that the very much needed revenue, or a guarantee of it, from WA was all that saved the VFL. That is the sole reason the expansion happened. . Read the attached article.

It exists. Anyone who says it doesnt is kidding themselves. There are some valid reasons for that bias existing though. Mostly to do with most of the clubs, players, supporters and media rights arising from Victoria.

Of course it exists. In a fair and even competition clubs like StK, Melbourne, WB and NM instead of being propped up would have been forced to relocate, merge or become defunct by now. Facts are they are needed to do the heavy lifting and carry the load so the bigger Vic teams can enjoy their privileged fixturing. It is a disgrace that a team has to sell its home games interstate because they are so poor. Every time a new club was added to the comp, without a corresponding reduction in Vic-based clubs, meant less travelling for Vic Clubs, particularly the favoured few.

WA couldnt join the VFL fast enough. They were terrified of a VFL move west which was thought to be inevitable. And it was still the VFL for three years AFTER they joined so the handwringing on this is amusing to say the least.

Terrified of a move west
Just explain to me how a bankrupt or insolvent VFL (along with 7 of its 12 clubs) was gonna be capable of funding an expansion west when, in 1986, they were a whisker away from being completely shut down by the Vic Commissioner for Corporate Affairs . It was only the prospect of WCE & BB licence money that stopped him from doing so.
The VFL also LIED to, or at least misled, the Vic Commissioner. You can read it for yourself, particularly the part relating to mergers. I'd expect that both Brisbane and WCE would have been aware of, and had some expectation that the mergers would occur. But No!
You also conveniently overlook that BB & WCE joining made it a 14 team competition which meant in a 22 round season, at least 9 Vic clubs had to travel west and north. There were also none of the "marquee" games compromising the fixture and benefitting Vic clubs.

So as amusing as you may find it, all this handwringing, especially by WCE and BB (BL) has some validity and any talk about knowing what they signed up for is crap.

Saving football: New documents reveal how close the VFL came to shutting down

In 1986, the Victorian Football League came perilously close to being shut down. Thirty years on, never before seen documents reveal how close the end nearly came.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Carringbush2010]

It's not an overnight dumping we're talking about here. It's gradually footy fans becoming less interested. And it's exactly what Vics did with the VFA once footy became a tv sport without the same localised community connections that footy clubs once had.

Well that's what the WA and SA public did at the time, and still those leagues exist, less fans than gws in the stands.

Rarely does the wafl get a mention here, so why did they all just jump onto brand new clubs? To follow the biggest league, which you've pointed out, that happens to be the expanded vfl

 

[sr36]

There's a reason there's no franchise vic clubs in the AFL, coz no one would be interested. There's a reason the AFL has all the old vfl clubs, coz a national club wouldn't get the same public interest without them.

The reason is simply that's how the national comp was formed - as an expansion of the VFL. But it was certainly not the only possible way it could have formed. The VFL itself was a breakaway from the VFA and then later ate it.

Who knows what the future holds. Back when the Windies cricket ruled the world, who the hell would have thought that 30 years later most their good players would choose to play for an Indian city in 3 hour version of the sport rather than for the West Indies.

 

[The Feeder Club]

It's a national comp by name only.

If we were to have a truly national comp, you'd have 4 or 6 vic clubs, not 10

This is what should've happened in the first place.

Agree, I think this is true, after ages arguing the point it is good to finally see our positions aligining

Well it never will be if the bulk of clubs are in one state.

If we went truly national then the vfl would have it's original clubs and franchises would be created for the national one.

The issue would be that the vfl would be biggest comp and not the national one. It would have the biggest attendances and tv eye balls, biggest money etc etc. Like it does now.

All the vic fans would just follow their club, like they do now.

Disagree, I think this is false. Clubs like Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon would have read the weather vane and jumped into the national comp.

 

[Choogler]

The AFL is rolling in cash, so they will kept alive for as long as it takes.

I have no doubt that if Noth went to the AFL and said they wanted to merge with Tassie the AFL would trip over themselves to make it happen, but they don't want to do anything to upset the Victorian supporter base and media.

And right there is evidence of the Vic bias... they sacrificed Fitzroy, why have the other non-viable Vic clubs been quarantined or off limits from the same treatment. And why would any of those clubs go volunteering to relocate when the AFL just keeps propping them up.

Forcing clubs to stand on their own 2 feet or to merge/relocate to GC and GWS would have been a much better business decision and would have save around $500 million since 2010 in prop up funding.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The reason is simply that's how the national comp was formed - as an expansion of the VFL. But it was certainly not the only possible way it could have formed. The VFL itself was a breakaway from the VFA and then later ate it.

Who knows what the future holds. Back when the Windies cricket ruled the world, who the hell would have thought that 30 years later most their good players would choose to play for an Indian city in 3 hour version of the sport rather than for the West Indies.

Seems we're in fierce agreement then.

Like I said, if you want a truly national comp then you'd create franchise vic clubs, but as I've pointed out, vic fans won't jump. They'll stay with their clubs, that would've meant the vfl would've been bigger than the whatever it was national comp would've been. Ok there might be a passing interest, like I followed Dandenong in the VFA when I was a kid but my main interest was / is Collingwood.

In short, a truly national comp wouldn't work, not organically anyway - unless over decades and decades, which is a gamble, like the northern expansion. NSW and QLD, which still isn't paying dividends the way HQ would like.

Like I also said, there's a reason all the old vfl clubs are in the AFL, because HQ knew at the time that the vic fans were just gonna follow their clubs, and whatever league they wouldve been in, which would've been the vfl, would've been the biggest.

This is why what we have now, truly is an expanded vfl, not a national comp.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Disagree, I think this is false. Clubs like Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon would have read the weather vane and jumped into the national comp.

Well no, why? Because to their members and fans it wouldn't have been popular, they'd see less of their club play.

It wasn't popular for vic fans that the comp meant playing interstate. But we accepted it and moved on.

 

[Carringbush2010]

And right there is evidence of the Vic bias... they sacrificed Fitzroy, why have the other non-viable Vic clubs been quarantined or off limits from the same treatment. And why would any of those clubs go volunteering to relocate when the AFL just keeps propping them up.

Forcing clubs to stand on their own 2 feet or to merge/relocate to GC and GWS would have been a much better business decision and would have save around $500 million since 2010 in prop up funding.

The problem HQ have with clubs relocating, merging, moving to other leagues, or dying off completely is they don't wanna lose fans.

North for example have 50k members, who knows how many paying fans they have on top of that, and that's just one of the smaller vic clubs. Hence why HQ prop up or redistribute funds to them (and all clubs).

If you remove 3 or 4 small vic clubs, you're talking about over half a million fans, and that's probably being very conservative.

 

[The Feeder Club]

Well no, why? Because to their members and fans it wouldn't have been popular, they'd see less of their club play.

It wasn't popular for vic fans that the comp meant playing interstate. But we accepted it and moved on.

Because it would itherwise mean staying in a secondary league rather than being in the big league. And after decades of being top dogs in what was the big league (VFL), they wouldn't take the risk of no longer being in it, which is obviously what the national comp would become. Furthermore by not jumping they would have opened the door for another VFL club to usurp them.
Believe me, if a national comp was created as it should have been at it was clear there would be, say, five licences for Vic clubs the established clubs would have been crawling over each other to be one of the five

 

[Choogler]

It's a national comp by name only.

If we were to have a truly national comp, you'd have 4 or 6 vic clubs, not 10

Sadly, the opportunity for a true national comp has passed us by.

If Brisbane and WCE had held off for 12 more months, the VFL would have been forced into liquidation by the Vic Commissioner for Corporate Affairs. The only hope would have been a Vic Government bail-out, or a Kerry Packer type stepping in. A private benefactor would have seen it as a business and forced, by way of mergers, a reduction in the number of Vic based teams. They would not have allowed the existing situation to continue.

This is what should've happened in the first place.

Agree, I think this is true, after ages arguing the point it is good to finally see our positions aligining


Disagree, I think this is false. Clubs like Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon would have read the weather vane and jumped into the national comp.

I agree, the smart ones would have seen the writing on the wall, especially when the best players began defecting.