King needs to stop twirling the ball around in his hand when taking a set shot at goal. The ball does not fall correctly onto the boot, hence he misses. See how the champs done it. Lockett held ball still, head over the ball and ran in a straigght line. Someone needs to teach King this, otherwise he will not improve, it a well known fact.
-
AFLW 2024 - Round 8 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Autopsy Round 7, 2022: St.Kilda v Port Adelaide
- Thread starter George
- Start date
- Tagged users None
- Apr 26, 2015
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A good way to sort out these goal-kicking woes is a game or two at Sandy. A couple of these young fellas are believing their own publicity.
- Oct 2, 2010
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Do you actually believe King is going to be dropped?
Even if he deserved to be dropped (which he doesnt), we don't have any forwards at Sandy worth bringing in anyway.
King and Higgins are the two to miss the most set shots
Can't see either playing at Sandy and I'm not sure how it would help
gringo2011
Premium Platinum
Stupid choices at the selection table as well. Went in with an extra tall side knowing that we were playing with a greasy ball. The worst thing is that if you were looking to come up with a plan to lose to Melbourne look no further than how we set up tonight. The only difference is that they have 2 Alirs to pick off your dumb entries.
- Apr 26, 2015
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Bad kicking is bad football, and the better the teams you play, the more it costs. If a couple of defenders bled goals to the opposition, we would be calling for them to be dropped.
The entries were dictated by the conditions, impossible to get any free flowing footy going so most of the entries were bombs. I agree we were too tall but despite that we should have won the game, our crap finishing is what cost us.
I doubt the Melbourne game will be anything like this one unless it pisses down on Sunday and even then the conditions won't be as bad.
- Oct 2, 2010
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Then next week when we can't score, you'd be screaming 'Why did we drop our 2 best forwards for Dean Kent if we wanted to win the game!!'
- Apr 26, 2015
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The coaches need to work on King's deficiencies off the ball- he doesn't do enough, and went back to playing from behind after he spilled a couple of marks in the first quarter- if your forwards don't lead, then you tend to bomb
gringo2011
Premium Platinum
Possibly just cost ourselves a top 4 spot at the end of the year. Dropped 2 winnable games so far, that's anxiety building because we've all seen this film before. Just when it felt like we'd turned a corner we start showing some old bad habits.
Ratts seemed to be selecting his side for Marvel, absolute hubris, he stubbornly played the style that he wants them too despite everything pointing to it not working in Cairns. He'll rant about not acceptable and all the rest but his message gets tired and players learn that his finger wagging is all blah blah.
It wasn't a game for leading forwards, it was so scrappy and the ball was like a cake of soap. Despite that King still had the opportunities to win us the game but his goalkicking let him down.
Not sure this one is on Ratts. The players didn't execute. Going into the season did you really give us a prayer of beating Port in Cairns? Still disappointing to lose especially because we did enough to win but I've seen enough this year to suggest Ratts knows what he's doing.
I wish he'd pulled the sub though, Port don't care about using the sub when players aren't injured so we should have done the same. Injecting Lienert in the last quarter would have been awesome.
- Oct 18, 2011
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Crappy low scoring affair where not converting our dominance early in the game always put us in a vulnerable position.
Given the conditions, I don't think we played that badly - just failed to convert despite creating more than enough chances for us to have won the game quite easily.
So not that fussed - you always lose games during the season and its better to play well and lose than to play like absolute s*** and lose.
On a more positive note
Given the conditions, I don't think we played that badly - just failed to convert despite creating more than enough chances for us to have won the game quite easily.
So not that fussed - you always lose games during the season and its better to play well and lose than to play like absolute s*** and lose.
On a more positive note
So you are suggesting our two leading goal kickers should be dropped?
And this makes us a better team?
Or is punishing them meant to make them kick straighter?
gringo2011
Premium Platinum
Structurally it would probably be a good thing for the Dees game. If we play every ball through him Melbourne will pick us off. I'm not advocating for it but if you had a spread of smalls like Long and maybe even Coops in there we are a lot less target focussed and could get out the back easier.
Perhaps drop Campbell and ruck forward him. Sit Marshall across HB. Coops stay home KPF.
This one hurts because, like the Collingwood one, we really should have won it and cost ourselves by foot. Higgins and King are comfortably the our best 2 avenues to goal but both really need to spend serious time on their set shot goal kicking. Beg plugger to come down, hell call in any competent goal kicking coach and get rid of the obvious flaws in their routines as a start because we can’t have our set shots always be a coin flip.
But I think we all would have taken 6-2 at the start of the year. The big thing now is we need to respond. Geelong are far from their best right now and while Melbourne look incredible they will drop one eventually and have come close to doing so already. Split the next fortnight and then don’t drop the games against Adelaide and North and we are back on track. None will be easy but hopefully we learn that out of this mess.
But I think we all would have taken 6-2 at the start of the year. The big thing now is we need to respond. Geelong are far from their best right now and while Melbourne look incredible they will drop one eventually and have come close to doing so already. Split the next fortnight and then don’t drop the games against Adelaide and North and we are back on track. None will be easy but hopefully we learn that out of this mess.
gringo2011
Premium Platinum
I thought their forward 50 work looked alright. We just went for King every time and Membrey dragged Alir into just the right spot to help him chop everything off. Probably Membrey's worst game ever, at one point he got in the way of two of our players about to clear a ball and turned the ball over into Port's forward line.
gringo2011
Premium Platinum
Get Emma Murray on to them. It's between the ears not technique. Both are front runners, when confidence is up they look elite, things get difficult or expectation builds and they bed wet. Got plenty of friends in the same boat too. A good sports psych would be a good thing to spend our Cairns money on.
dudeintheswamp
Club Legend
- Apr 16, 2022
- 2,163
- 5,213
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
Geez for some a one point loss and the wheels are off. 
Warning- long article.
TLDR... we're shit.
From the roar...
Cool The Flag Talk, The Saints Aren't Even Guaranteed Finalists Just Yet
By Dem Panopoulos / Expert
Let’s settle down when discussing the Saints.
It has been a really impressive start to the season without question and to express concerns, I must first acknowledge the positives that we’ve seen so far.
Through the first six rounds, they sit fifth with a record of 5-1 and have clearly exceeded expectations.
The Saints have done it at both ends, conceding the third fewest points while scoring the fourth most points and most encouragingly, the over-reliance on Jack Steele hasn’t been there in 2022.
Perhaps the single biggest leap undertaken by St Kilda has been the vast improvement in fitness – arguably the most vital asset to work off in modern footy, combined with defensive commitment.
This has seen some marked improvements from specific individuals that previously have been as maligned as any across the competition.
Take the trio of Brad Crouch, Seb Ross and Dan McKenzie, for example. All three have been prominent midfielders for the Saints in 2022, with McKenzie transforming himself into one of the best two-way running wingmen in the competition.
Among the justifiable criticisms levelled at these players was their application to the defensive side of the game.
If you want to question whether there’s enough belief in this playing group, look no further than the increases in defensive-half pressure acts among these players.
Crouch has gone from averaging 9.2 per game to 11.7, McKenzie has increased his from 6.7 to 8.5 and somewhat surprisingly, Ross has jumped from 6.5 defensive-half pressure acts per game to an excellent 9.8.
This is absolutely significant to keep in mind when analysing St Kilda, as these players are playing central positions and providing comparable defensive support to Steele, who had very little previously.
The case of Ross warrants a little further attention, as he’s deserving of credit from those who have previously treated him as a whipping boy.
Before the season, the 28-year-old may have found himself on the fringes of a fully fit St Kilda team.
He has won best-and-fairest awards previously and been among the league’s most prolific ball-winners, but a long-held criticism of Ross has been his poor ball use and lack of overall impact on games.
Even as recently as last season, the midfielder seemed to be struggling to maintain relevance.
But a quarter of the way through 2022, Ross has been a perfect complementary piece of the midfield.
Ross’ kicking efficiency is 66.7 per cent on 12 kicks a game, a clear career-high in ball use and rated above average across midfielders in the league.
His contested possession rate has pushed back up among his career-best, he’s averaging more intercept possessions than ever before, he’s ranked 16th in the entire league for score involvements and as mentioned, his defensive pressure is better than ever.
Backing in Ross has worked out swimmingly, as has the move of Jack Sinclair back into the midfield.
Sinclair is ranked in the league’s top 20 for effective disposals and metres gained, and he’s averaging career-highs in disposals, clearances, ground-ball gets and tackles.
Perhaps the Saints missed the craft and skill of Jade Gresham more than the general AFL fan realised. He has returned to be one of the AFL’s best players for goal assists, inside 50s and centre clearances, he is averaging 24 disposals, six inside 50s, four clearances, and he has kicked nine goals in six games.
Of course, I could endlessly list the positive output of many players, although Josh Battle, Max King and Jack Higgins are deserving of specific individual mentions.
Yet for all the positives, and there are plenty, to suggest the Saints have graduated to even remote premiership contention is to overreact on what has been presented to us.
For those who haven’t kept tabs, the Saints lost to Collingwood in the first round and have subsequently beaten Fremantle, Richmond, Hawthorn, Gold Coast and GWS.
While the only true contender they’ve played so far was an away win against the wildly inefficient Dockers, this isn’t an exercise in criticising a softer draw – in fact, we should commend a finals aspirant for putting in the work against rivals.
Rather, it’s the tactical and stylistic approach that are of concern.
The Saints have been victorious by being able to run out games and grind their way to the very end.
There’s certainly an admirable quality about a group who can be tougher for longer and simply work their way to wins, but that should be a trait rather than an identity.
Sure, in pockets, the Saints have been devastating. They ran rampant in the final quarter of their win against the Tigers after grinding the opposition into the ground, while a second-quarter blitz against the Hawks set up the huge victory when Hawthorn tried to take blind risks later in the game and turned the ball over.
Instead, Round 6’s win against GWS was the epitome of a fighting victory and St Kilda’s norm, having lost Jack Hayes and Rowan Marshall. They preyed on a team devoid of confidence and ran right over them.
Unfortunately, genuinely good teams aren’t that easy to grind down with patient ball use and in fact, slower ball movement is a huge red flag in 2022.
Collingwood beat St Kilda with quick ball movement and efficient transition. They didn’t stay still if they could help it and would go direct as often as possible.
That’s exactly the way the likes of Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney play, while a fit Fremantle and Geelong do it plenty.
These teams wait for the opposition to slow down their ball use and chip the ball around. With each disposal that purely aims to retain possession, they move higher up the ground and squeeze teams until they turn the ball over closer to goal.
It’s bad news for the Saints, who are in the league’s top four for disposals-per-inside 50, averaging 7.5. For reference, Gold Coast average 5.66 disposals per inside 50, Brisbane average 6.44 and the Swans are around 6.42.
St Kilda’s numbers are comparable with Carlton in this area, and the Blues were annihilated by Fremantle by over-possessing and being caught out by forward pressure and direct disposals.
The sustainability of relying on contested marking inside 50 to score is also a legitimate concern.
King is the league’s best inside-50 target and has been quite incredible so far, kicking 17.17 with 4.7 marks inside 50 and 2.8 contested marks per game.
If King was able to keep up this pace across the whole season though, he’d be creating AFL records for key forwards by considerable margins.
Jack Higgins, too, is averaging inordinate numbers inside 50 that have proven to be outliers in the competition previously, rather than an accepted norm.
Right now the numbers are impressive, but to think this could be sustainable is surely wishful thinking.
A strength of the Saints in 2021 was their average of 11.1 tackles inside 50, which has dropped to 9.5 this season. They’ve improved from 12th to sixth in clearances, but a lot of lateral ball movement almost neutralises this advantage.
Clearly, work has been done to solidify the group defensively – the Saints concede the second fewest marks inside 50, yet it’s mainly due to the midfield group pushing back and occupying defensive space. Callum Wilkie and Dougal Howard have actually been average in one-on-one contests.
As a result of the increased ground ball out back and the desire to retain possession, no team attracts more pressure, with St Kilda’s opponents averaging 14.2 tackles inside 50.
Unfortunately for the Saints, the fixture isn’t particularly kind to them.
Stats Insider has the club facing the most difficult fixture by far, featuring two games against Brisbane, Geelong and Sydney while needing to face Melbourne, Fremantle and Carlton and having sold what should’ve been a straightforward home game against Port Adelaide.
Winning five of their first six games provides the Saints with some luxuries, such as being able to afford a slip-up on occasion, but with this hard a fixture against teams preying on slow ball movement, Brett Ratten simply must make some tactical adjustments – and quickly – as his team cannot grind out wins against this quality opposition.
A potential ten-goal loss against Melbourne looms without change and would be a devastating wake-up call.
The Saints have had a wonderful start to 2022 and have exceeded the expectations of most.
They must be careful in navigating a difficult few months ahead if they want don’t want to slip to the fringes of the finals.
We should celebrate what the St Kilda Football Club have achieved in the opening stanza of 2022, but tempering expectations is vital to properly judge the group going forward.
Warning- long article.
TLDR... we're shit.
From the roar...
Cool The Flag Talk, The Saints Aren't Even Guaranteed Finalists Just Yet
By Dem Panopoulos / Expert
Let’s settle down when discussing the Saints.
It has been a really impressive start to the season without question and to express concerns, I must first acknowledge the positives that we’ve seen so far.
Through the first six rounds, they sit fifth with a record of 5-1 and have clearly exceeded expectations.
The Saints have done it at both ends, conceding the third fewest points while scoring the fourth most points and most encouragingly, the over-reliance on Jack Steele hasn’t been there in 2022.
Perhaps the single biggest leap undertaken by St Kilda has been the vast improvement in fitness – arguably the most vital asset to work off in modern footy, combined with defensive commitment.
This has seen some marked improvements from specific individuals that previously have been as maligned as any across the competition.
Take the trio of Brad Crouch, Seb Ross and Dan McKenzie, for example. All three have been prominent midfielders for the Saints in 2022, with McKenzie transforming himself into one of the best two-way running wingmen in the competition.
Among the justifiable criticisms levelled at these players was their application to the defensive side of the game.
If you want to question whether there’s enough belief in this playing group, look no further than the increases in defensive-half pressure acts among these players.
Crouch has gone from averaging 9.2 per game to 11.7, McKenzie has increased his from 6.7 to 8.5 and somewhat surprisingly, Ross has jumped from 6.5 defensive-half pressure acts per game to an excellent 9.8.
This is absolutely significant to keep in mind when analysing St Kilda, as these players are playing central positions and providing comparable defensive support to Steele, who had very little previously.
The case of Ross warrants a little further attention, as he’s deserving of credit from those who have previously treated him as a whipping boy.
Before the season, the 28-year-old may have found himself on the fringes of a fully fit St Kilda team.
He has won best-and-fairest awards previously and been among the league’s most prolific ball-winners, but a long-held criticism of Ross has been his poor ball use and lack of overall impact on games.
Even as recently as last season, the midfielder seemed to be struggling to maintain relevance.
But a quarter of the way through 2022, Ross has been a perfect complementary piece of the midfield.
Ross’ kicking efficiency is 66.7 per cent on 12 kicks a game, a clear career-high in ball use and rated above average across midfielders in the league.
His contested possession rate has pushed back up among his career-best, he’s averaging more intercept possessions than ever before, he’s ranked 16th in the entire league for score involvements and as mentioned, his defensive pressure is better than ever.
Backing in Ross has worked out swimmingly, as has the move of Jack Sinclair back into the midfield.
Sinclair is ranked in the league’s top 20 for effective disposals and metres gained, and he’s averaging career-highs in disposals, clearances, ground-ball gets and tackles.
Perhaps the Saints missed the craft and skill of Jade Gresham more than the general AFL fan realised. He has returned to be one of the AFL’s best players for goal assists, inside 50s and centre clearances, he is averaging 24 disposals, six inside 50s, four clearances, and he has kicked nine goals in six games.
Of course, I could endlessly list the positive output of many players, although Josh Battle, Max King and Jack Higgins are deserving of specific individual mentions.
Yet for all the positives, and there are plenty, to suggest the Saints have graduated to even remote premiership contention is to overreact on what has been presented to us.
For those who haven’t kept tabs, the Saints lost to Collingwood in the first round and have subsequently beaten Fremantle, Richmond, Hawthorn, Gold Coast and GWS.
While the only true contender they’ve played so far was an away win against the wildly inefficient Dockers, this isn’t an exercise in criticising a softer draw – in fact, we should commend a finals aspirant for putting in the work against rivals.
Rather, it’s the tactical and stylistic approach that are of concern.
The Saints have been victorious by being able to run out games and grind their way to the very end.
There’s certainly an admirable quality about a group who can be tougher for longer and simply work their way to wins, but that should be a trait rather than an identity.
Sure, in pockets, the Saints have been devastating. They ran rampant in the final quarter of their win against the Tigers after grinding the opposition into the ground, while a second-quarter blitz against the Hawks set up the huge victory when Hawthorn tried to take blind risks later in the game and turned the ball over.
Instead, Round 6’s win against GWS was the epitome of a fighting victory and St Kilda’s norm, having lost Jack Hayes and Rowan Marshall. They preyed on a team devoid of confidence and ran right over them.
Unfortunately, genuinely good teams aren’t that easy to grind down with patient ball use and in fact, slower ball movement is a huge red flag in 2022.
Collingwood beat St Kilda with quick ball movement and efficient transition. They didn’t stay still if they could help it and would go direct as often as possible.
That’s exactly the way the likes of Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney play, while a fit Fremantle and Geelong do it plenty.
These teams wait for the opposition to slow down their ball use and chip the ball around. With each disposal that purely aims to retain possession, they move higher up the ground and squeeze teams until they turn the ball over closer to goal.
It’s bad news for the Saints, who are in the league’s top four for disposals-per-inside 50, averaging 7.5. For reference, Gold Coast average 5.66 disposals per inside 50, Brisbane average 6.44 and the Swans are around 6.42.
St Kilda’s numbers are comparable with Carlton in this area, and the Blues were annihilated by Fremantle by over-possessing and being caught out by forward pressure and direct disposals.
The sustainability of relying on contested marking inside 50 to score is also a legitimate concern.
King is the league’s best inside-50 target and has been quite incredible so far, kicking 17.17 with 4.7 marks inside 50 and 2.8 contested marks per game.
If King was able to keep up this pace across the whole season though, he’d be creating AFL records for key forwards by considerable margins.
Jack Higgins, too, is averaging inordinate numbers inside 50 that have proven to be outliers in the competition previously, rather than an accepted norm.
Right now the numbers are impressive, but to think this could be sustainable is surely wishful thinking.
A strength of the Saints in 2021 was their average of 11.1 tackles inside 50, which has dropped to 9.5 this season. They’ve improved from 12th to sixth in clearances, but a lot of lateral ball movement almost neutralises this advantage.
Clearly, work has been done to solidify the group defensively – the Saints concede the second fewest marks inside 50, yet it’s mainly due to the midfield group pushing back and occupying defensive space. Callum Wilkie and Dougal Howard have actually been average in one-on-one contests.
As a result of the increased ground ball out back and the desire to retain possession, no team attracts more pressure, with St Kilda’s opponents averaging 14.2 tackles inside 50.
Unfortunately for the Saints, the fixture isn’t particularly kind to them.
Stats Insider has the club facing the most difficult fixture by far, featuring two games against Brisbane, Geelong and Sydney while needing to face Melbourne, Fremantle and Carlton and having sold what should’ve been a straightforward home game against Port Adelaide.
Winning five of their first six games provides the Saints with some luxuries, such as being able to afford a slip-up on occasion, but with this hard a fixture against teams preying on slow ball movement, Brett Ratten simply must make some tactical adjustments – and quickly – as his team cannot grind out wins against this quality opposition.
A potential ten-goal loss against Melbourne looms without change and would be a devastating wake-up call.
The Saints have had a wonderful start to 2022 and have exceeded the expectations of most.
They must be careful in navigating a difficult few months ahead if they want don’t want to slip to the fringes of the finals.
We should celebrate what the St Kilda Football Club have achieved in the opening stanza of 2022, but tempering expectations is vital to properly judge the group going forward.
CursingFijian
Knight of the Square Table
Especially in those conditions.
It was a 1 point ugly loss. I share everyone’s pain. There are lessons to be learned here and I hope the club does a thorough review.
Ollie Wines, Aliir Aliir and Robbie Gray had their best games for the season. Some guys just love playing the Saints.
I thought we obtained no real advantage with two rucks in those conditions, and may have been better served by another effort based, gut running player. 37-12 in hitouts but 32-28 in clearances.
Hill and McKenzie toiled all day. Wanganeen-Milera and Windhager had honest games in the wet. Paton, Long and Webster all toiled hard in defense. And for a short while I thought the run of Wood might be a game saver.
But it was not to be.
Our mids spluttered and underperformed in the conditions and our marking forwards were woeful. Higgins and King offered nothing in terms of pressure and failed to convert his chances. The double whammy.
More importantly our forwards did not work hard enough to transition after halftime and the game got locked into our defensive half for long periods.
Even then we should have won the game. All it needed was one errant kick to be hit flush. Ironically, 18 points allowed Port to setup for the rebound. If we had of kicked a smaller score we probably contain them better.
In the second half there was a lot of toe poking, get the ball going forward at all costs moments that went straight to Port players. If we’re going to play that way our forwards have to tighten up and play in front. Someone up front has to recognise and call it. Might be lacking some leadership in the forward 50.
A couple of umpires calls that were very, very difficult to understand what the infringement was. But again, we still did enough to create plenty of opportunities to win the game.
We’re not as good as we think we are. Just yet. Big game coming up next week, and I hope we can find it within us to get up for it. Melbourne at the G. Let’s ask the questions and find out the answers.
If we’re fair dinkum about “why not us” then we won’t be tolerant of noble losses. Let’s chase the win next week and make up for the poor result this week.
Geez for some a one point loss and the wheels are off.
Warning- long article.
TLDR... we're shit.
From the roar...
Cool The Flag Talk, The Saints Aren't Even Guaranteed Finalists Just Yet
By Dem Panopoulos / Expert
Let’s settle down when discussing the Saints.
It has been a really impressive start to the season without question and to express concerns, I must first acknowledge the positives that we’ve seen so far.
Through the first six rounds, they sit fifth with a record of 5-1 and have clearly exceeded expectations.
The Saints have done it at both ends, conceding the third fewest points while scoring the fourth most points and most encouragingly, the over-reliance on Jack Steele hasn’t been there in 2022.
Perhaps the single biggest leap undertaken by St Kilda has been the vast improvement in fitness – arguably the most vital asset to work off in modern footy, combined with defensive commitment.
This has seen some marked improvements from specific individuals that previously have been as maligned as any across the competition.
Take the trio of Brad Crouch, Seb Ross and Dan McKenzie, for example. All three have been prominent midfielders for the Saints in 2022, with McKenzie transforming himself into one of the best two-way running wingmen in the competition.
Among the justifiable criticisms levelled at these players was their application to the defensive side of the game.
If you want to question whether there’s enough belief in this playing group, look no further than the increases in defensive-half pressure acts among these players.
Crouch has gone from averaging 9.2 per game to 11.7, McKenzie has increased his from 6.7 to 8.5 and somewhat surprisingly, Ross has jumped from 6.5 defensive-half pressure acts per game to an excellent 9.8.
This is absolutely significant to keep in mind when analysing St Kilda, as these players are playing central positions and providing comparable defensive support to Steele, who had very little previously.
The case of Ross warrants a little further attention, as he’s deserving of credit from those who have previously treated him as a whipping boy.
Before the season, the 28-year-old may have found himself on the fringes of a fully fit St Kilda team.
He has won best-and-fairest awards previously and been among the league’s most prolific ball-winners, but a long-held criticism of Ross has been his poor ball use and lack of overall impact on games.
Even as recently as last season, the midfielder seemed to be struggling to maintain relevance.
But a quarter of the way through 2022, Ross has been a perfect complementary piece of the midfield.
Ross’ kicking efficiency is 66.7 per cent on 12 kicks a game, a clear career-high in ball use and rated above average across midfielders in the league.
His contested possession rate has pushed back up among his career-best, he’s averaging more intercept possessions than ever before, he’s ranked 16th in the entire league for score involvements and as mentioned, his defensive pressure is better than ever.
Backing in Ross has worked out swimmingly, as has the move of Jack Sinclair back into the midfield.
Sinclair is ranked in the league’s top 20 for effective disposals and metres gained, and he’s averaging career-highs in disposals, clearances, ground-ball gets and tackles.
Perhaps the Saints missed the craft and skill of Jade Gresham more than the general AFL fan realised. He has returned to be one of the AFL’s best players for goal assists, inside 50s and centre clearances, he is averaging 24 disposals, six inside 50s, four clearances, and he has kicked nine goals in six games.
Of course, I could endlessly list the positive output of many players, although Josh Battle, Max King and Jack Higgins are deserving of specific individual mentions.
Yet for all the positives, and there are plenty, to suggest the Saints have graduated to even remote premiership contention is to overreact on what has been presented to us.
For those who haven’t kept tabs, the Saints lost to Collingwood in the first round and have subsequently beaten Fremantle, Richmond, Hawthorn, Gold Coast and GWS.
While the only true contender they’ve played so far was an away win against the wildly inefficient Dockers, this isn’t an exercise in criticising a softer draw – in fact, we should commend a finals aspirant for putting in the work against rivals.
Rather, it’s the tactical and stylistic approach that are of concern.
The Saints have been victorious by being able to run out games and grind their way to the very end.
There’s certainly an admirable quality about a group who can be tougher for longer and simply work their way to wins, but that should be a trait rather than an identity.
Sure, in pockets, the Saints have been devastating. They ran rampant in the final quarter of their win against the Tigers after grinding the opposition into the ground, while a second-quarter blitz against the Hawks set up the huge victory when Hawthorn tried to take blind risks later in the game and turned the ball over.
Instead, Round 6’s win against GWS was the epitome of a fighting victory and St Kilda’s norm, having lost Jack Hayes and Rowan Marshall. They preyed on a team devoid of confidence and ran right over them.
Unfortunately, genuinely good teams aren’t that easy to grind down with patient ball use and in fact, slower ball movement is a huge red flag in 2022.
Collingwood beat St Kilda with quick ball movement and efficient transition. They didn’t stay still if they could help it and would go direct as often as possible.
That’s exactly the way the likes of Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney play, while a fit Fremantle and Geelong do it plenty.
These teams wait for the opposition to slow down their ball use and chip the ball around. With each disposal that purely aims to retain possession, they move higher up the ground and squeeze teams until they turn the ball over closer to goal.
It’s bad news for the Saints, who are in the league’s top four for disposals-per-inside 50, averaging 7.5. For reference, Gold Coast average 5.66 disposals per inside 50, Brisbane average 6.44 and the Swans are around 6.42.
St Kilda’s numbers are comparable with Carlton in this area, and the Blues were annihilated by Fremantle by over-possessing and being caught out by forward pressure and direct disposals.
The sustainability of relying on contested marking inside 50 to score is also a legitimate concern.
King is the league’s best inside-50 target and has been quite incredible so far, kicking 17.17 with 4.7 marks inside 50 and 2.8 contested marks per game.
If King was able to keep up this pace across the whole season though, he’d be creating AFL records for key forwards by considerable margins.
Jack Higgins, too, is averaging inordinate numbers inside 50 that have proven to be outliers in the competition previously, rather than an accepted norm.
Right now the numbers are impressive, but to think this could be sustainable is surely wishful thinking.
A strength of the Saints in 2021 was their average of 11.1 tackles inside 50, which has dropped to 9.5 this season. They’ve improved from 12th to sixth in clearances, but a lot of lateral ball movement almost neutralises this advantage.
Clearly, work has been done to solidify the group defensively – the Saints concede the second fewest marks inside 50, yet it’s mainly due to the midfield group pushing back and occupying defensive space. Callum Wilkie and Dougal Howard have actually been average in one-on-one contests.
As a result of the increased ground ball out back and the desire to retain possession, no team attracts more pressure, with St Kilda’s opponents averaging 14.2 tackles inside 50.
Unfortunately for the Saints, the fixture isn’t particularly kind to them.
Stats Insider has the club facing the most difficult fixture by far, featuring two games against Brisbane, Geelong and Sydney while needing to face Melbourne, Fremantle and Carlton and having sold what should’ve been a straightforward home game against Port Adelaide.
Winning five of their first six games provides the Saints with some luxuries, such as being able to afford a slip-up on occasion, but with this hard a fixture against teams preying on slow ball movement, Brett Ratten simply must make some tactical adjustments – and quickly – as his team cannot grind out wins against this quality opposition.
A potential ten-goal loss against Melbourne looms without change and would be a devastating wake-up call.
The Saints have had a wonderful start to 2022 and have exceeded the expectations of most.
They must be careful in navigating a difficult few months ahead if they want don’t want to slip to the fringes of the finals.
We should celebrate what the St Kilda Football Club have achieved in the opening stanza of 2022, but tempering expectations is vital to properly judge the group going forward.
I’m sorry but these kind of articles still any me even after we lost. No Saints supporter seriously was saying we were going to win the flag. We know it takes more than 5 wins to do that, heck we know it takes more than 19 in a row to do that if this author has forgotten. We were enjoying the fact we’d won 5 in a row as we bloody well should have.
Still need tall to kick it to. Just can't he bombing it long at every opportunity.
King is very good on the lead
You could send Marshall to May and make him play more defensive decoy
gringo2011
Premium Platinum
Geez for some a one point loss and the wheels are off.
Warning- long article.
TLDR... we're shit.
From the roar...
Cool The Flag Talk, The Saints Aren't Even Guaranteed Finalists Just Yet
By Dem Panopoulos / Expert
Let’s settle down when discussing the Saints.
It has been a really impressive start to the season without question and to express concerns, I must first acknowledge the positives that we’ve seen so far.
Through the first six rounds, they sit fifth with a record of 5-1 and have clearly exceeded expectations.
The Saints have done it at both ends, conceding the third fewest points while scoring the fourth most points and most encouragingly, the over-reliance on Jack Steele hasn’t been there in 2022.
Perhaps the single biggest leap undertaken by St Kilda has been the vast improvement in fitness – arguably the most vital asset to work off in modern footy, combined with defensive commitment.
This has seen some marked improvements from specific individuals that previously have been as maligned as any across the competition.
Take the trio of Brad Crouch, Seb Ross and Dan McKenzie, for example. All three have been prominent midfielders for the Saints in 2022, with McKenzie transforming himself into one of the best two-way running wingmen in the competition.
Among the justifiable criticisms levelled at these players was their application to the defensive side of the game.
If you want to question whether there’s enough belief in this playing group, look no further than the increases in defensive-half pressure acts among these players.
Crouch has gone from averaging 9.2 per game to 11.7, McKenzie has increased his from 6.7 to 8.5 and somewhat surprisingly, Ross has jumped from 6.5 defensive-half pressure acts per game to an excellent 9.8.
This is absolutely significant to keep in mind when analysing St Kilda, as these players are playing central positions and providing comparable defensive support to Steele, who had very little previously.
The case of Ross warrants a little further attention, as he’s deserving of credit from those who have previously treated him as a whipping boy.
Before the season, the 28-year-old may have found himself on the fringes of a fully fit St Kilda team.
He has won best-and-fairest awards previously and been among the league’s most prolific ball-winners, but a long-held criticism of Ross has been his poor ball use and lack of overall impact on games.
Even as recently as last season, the midfielder seemed to be struggling to maintain relevance.
But a quarter of the way through 2022, Ross has been a perfect complementary piece of the midfield.
Ross’ kicking efficiency is 66.7 per cent on 12 kicks a game, a clear career-high in ball use and rated above average across midfielders in the league.
His contested possession rate has pushed back up among his career-best, he’s averaging more intercept possessions than ever before, he’s ranked 16th in the entire league for score involvements and as mentioned, his defensive pressure is better than ever.
Backing in Ross has worked out swimmingly, as has the move of Jack Sinclair back into the midfield.
Sinclair is ranked in the league’s top 20 for effective disposals and metres gained, and he’s averaging career-highs in disposals, clearances, ground-ball gets and tackles.
Perhaps the Saints missed the craft and skill of Jade Gresham more than the general AFL fan realised. He has returned to be one of the AFL’s best players for goal assists, inside 50s and centre clearances, he is averaging 24 disposals, six inside 50s, four clearances, and he has kicked nine goals in six games.
Of course, I could endlessly list the positive output of many players, although Josh Battle, Max King and Jack Higgins are deserving of specific individual mentions.
Yet for all the positives, and there are plenty, to suggest the Saints have graduated to even remote premiership contention is to overreact on what has been presented to us.
For those who haven’t kept tabs, the Saints lost to Collingwood in the first round and have subsequently beaten Fremantle, Richmond, Hawthorn, Gold Coast and GWS.
While the only true contender they’ve played so far was an away win against the wildly inefficient Dockers, this isn’t an exercise in criticising a softer draw – in fact, we should commend a finals aspirant for putting in the work against rivals.
Rather, it’s the tactical and stylistic approach that are of concern.
The Saints have been victorious by being able to run out games and grind their way to the very end.
There’s certainly an admirable quality about a group who can be tougher for longer and simply work their way to wins, but that should be a trait rather than an identity.
Sure, in pockets, the Saints have been devastating. They ran rampant in the final quarter of their win against the Tigers after grinding the opposition into the ground, while a second-quarter blitz against the Hawks set up the huge victory when Hawthorn tried to take blind risks later in the game and turned the ball over.
Instead, Round 6’s win against GWS was the epitome of a fighting victory and St Kilda’s norm, having lost Jack Hayes and Rowan Marshall. They preyed on a team devoid of confidence and ran right over them.
Unfortunately, genuinely good teams aren’t that easy to grind down with patient ball use and in fact, slower ball movement is a huge red flag in 2022.
Collingwood beat St Kilda with quick ball movement and efficient transition. They didn’t stay still if they could help it and would go direct as often as possible.
That’s exactly the way the likes of Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney play, while a fit Fremantle and Geelong do it plenty.
These teams wait for the opposition to slow down their ball use and chip the ball around. With each disposal that purely aims to retain possession, they move higher up the ground and squeeze teams until they turn the ball over closer to goal.
It’s bad news for the Saints, who are in the league’s top four for disposals-per-inside 50, averaging 7.5. For reference, Gold Coast average 5.66 disposals per inside 50, Brisbane average 6.44 and the Swans are around 6.42.
St Kilda’s numbers are comparable with Carlton in this area, and the Blues were annihilated by Fremantle by over-possessing and being caught out by forward pressure and direct disposals.
The sustainability of relying on contested marking inside 50 to score is also a legitimate concern.
King is the league’s best inside-50 target and has been quite incredible so far, kicking 17.17 with 4.7 marks inside 50 and 2.8 contested marks per game.
If King was able to keep up this pace across the whole season though, he’d be creating AFL records for key forwards by considerable margins.
Jack Higgins, too, is averaging inordinate numbers inside 50 that have proven to be outliers in the competition previously, rather than an accepted norm.
Right now the numbers are impressive, but to think this could be sustainable is surely wishful thinking.
A strength of the Saints in 2021 was their average of 11.1 tackles inside 50, which has dropped to 9.5 this season. They’ve improved from 12th to sixth in clearances, but a lot of lateral ball movement almost neutralises this advantage.
Clearly, work has been done to solidify the group defensively – the Saints concede the second fewest marks inside 50, yet it’s mainly due to the midfield group pushing back and occupying defensive space. Callum Wilkie and Dougal Howard have actually been average in one-on-one contests.
As a result of the increased ground ball out back and the desire to retain possession, no team attracts more pressure, with St Kilda’s opponents averaging 14.2 tackles inside 50.
Unfortunately for the Saints, the fixture isn’t particularly kind to them.
Stats Insider has the club facing the most difficult fixture by far, featuring two games against Brisbane, Geelong and Sydney while needing to face Melbourne, Fremantle and Carlton and having sold what should’ve been a straightforward home game against Port Adelaide.
Winning five of their first six games provides the Saints with some luxuries, such as being able to afford a slip-up on occasion, but with this hard a fixture against teams preying on slow ball movement, Brett Ratten simply must make some tactical adjustments – and quickly – as his team cannot grind out wins against this quality opposition.
A potential ten-goal loss against Melbourne looms without change and would be a devastating wake-up call.
The Saints have had a wonderful start to 2022 and have exceeded the expectations of most.
They must be careful in navigating a difficult few months ahead if they want don’t want to slip to the fringes of the finals.
We should celebrate what the St Kilda Football Club have achieved in the opening stanza of 2022, but tempering expectations is vital to properly judge the group going forward.
And that gives comfort how? I'm pissed because just when I thought we were on a different path it's starting to look like we're in familiar surroundings. I thought we looked a side around 5 to 10th preseason but got to the point where I thought that all the pieces were finally starting to click. Freo are still doing it and not having to hope.
We've gone from looking like a top 4 side to back in the pack in the blink of an eye and lost to a very ordinary Collingwood and to Port who gave us a quarter to put them away then got bored of waiting and decided to half arse play enough to beat us.
And on top of that it was great for Port as we'd sold them the game like a loser that sells his kidney to pay his rent for the month.
To me we are back in the pack with Collingwood, Geelong, Port, Carlton, Hawks and Richmond. Freo are serious top 4 contenders though with less talent and more mental toughness than us. Adelaide could equal us if we lose the next 2 and they win. I'm already mourning the feeling of enjoying footy again.
Just on intercepting we seriously need to look at the way Membery was used, or rather wasn't, last night. Aliir took him to the cleaners but the rest of the team did him no favours in that regard. Either we have to man up those intercept types to not give them free reign or we need to actively seek out their opponents to force them to be accountable.
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