List Mgmt. List Management 2022

[TENACIOUS]

In what universe does Fisher need to be replaced? Has arguably been our most improved player this year

I do like Fisher...
But... A universe, that want's players who stand up when the heat is on and not go missing...
A few fancy feet plays doesn't make him our most improved player this year...

He has talent, however needs to take his game to another level...

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I do like Fisher...
But... A universe, that want's players who stand up when the heat is on and not go missing...
A few fancy feet plays doesn't make him our most improved player this year...

He has talent, however needs to take his game to another level...

Too lazy/laconic to ever reach those levels.

Happy to move him on for a 2nd round pick.

 

[Jeremias]

Next year it's time for the younger players, to actually take the next step and take a spot or at least show they can actually make it at the level...

Players that have stepped up this year...	Motlop, O'Brien, Cottrell & Durdin
Players we know what we get and need to replace...	Dow, Setterfield, Plowman, Martin, Fisher, Owies & Newnes
Players who need to step up and take their spots or face being delisted or traded...	Stocker, Kemp, Carroll, Cuningham, Philp, Honey & Boyd
Players that it's probably to late...	Fogarty, Parks, Dow, Setterfield & Hayes

Fisher and Owies have both stepped up this year. Give them credit where it is due.

Carroll is signed through to the end of 2024. Why would he be in any danger of losing his list spot next year? The kid will be 20 for the entirety of 2023 and has shown a bit already.

So we draft a kid from the other side of the country, youngest in his draft class, extend his contract and then ship him off mid contract because...because what? He hasn't cemented his spot in what is arguably one of the strongest midfield handfuls in the competition?

Is that really what your idea of good development looks like?

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. I don't believe there's any logic to the statement at all.

It's been a very disappointing back end to the season but for most of the year we've been within touching distance of the top 4.

It's all doom and gloom for some at the moment - and people have every right to be disappointed - but we're not that far away.

This group absolutely can contend for a flag, as soon as next year.

Yeah, Elmer_Judd is wrong. I see no reason why we can't win the flag in that fifth year.

 

[TENACIOUS]

Fisher and Owies have both stepped up this year. Give them credit where it is due.

Carroll is signed through to the end of 2024. Why would he be in any danger of losing his list spot next year? The kid will be 20 for the entirety of 2023 and has shown a bit already.

So we draft a kid from the other side of the country, youngest in his draft class, extend his contract and then ship him off mid contract because...because what? He hasn't cemented his spot in what is arguably one of the strongest midfield handfuls in the competition?

Is that really what your idea of good development looks like?

Fisher and Owies, have both performed to the same level, they have every other year... A level where they could be replaced...

Carroll had 2 good AFL level games, then has been average in the VFL since...
I do think, he has all the tools to make it... But, needs to take another step next year...

TBH I think they all have to tools to make it and hope they do...

However, for our list to grow and become a top 4 list...
These are the players, who need to start pushing for a spot or becoming reliable high level VFL contributors who can cover injuries...

Cripps, Hewett, Curnow, McKay, SOS, Kennedy, Williams, Walsh, Docherty, McGovern, Newman, Fisher, Martin, Pittonet & Saad...
Have all, either hit or close to hitting their ceilings... Very little growth will come from here...

O'Brien, De Koning, Cottrell, Motlop, Cerra, Young, Boyd & Durdin
Have all, taken a step and cemented a spot this year... Still a lot of growth left in these guy's...

Cuningham, Stocker, Carroll, Kemp, Honey, Philp
All, have the talent and tools needed to take the next step and join the group above...
Next year is the time they need to start showing it as they are our future and what we need to push us up the ladder next 1-2 years...

 

[Jeremias]

Fisher and Owies, have both performed to the same level, they have every other year... A level where they could be replaced...

No. Both have very clearly improved.

What is the point of a discussion if one side brings preconceived ideas and attitudes towards certain players and can't accept the clear reality?

Fisher and Owies have both obviously improved. Whether they need to elevate themselves again or whether they could be replaced is a completely different discussion, isn't it?

Carroll had 2 good AFL level games, then has been average in the VFL since...
I do think, he has all the tools to make it... But, needs to take another step next year...

He's 20 and has had injury issues. What exactly were you expecting from him?

 

[TENACIOUS]

No. Both have very clearly improved.

What is the point of a discussion if one side brings preconceived ideas and attitudes towards certain players and can't accept the clear reality?

Fisher and Owies have both obviously improved. Whether they need to elevate themselves again or whether they could be replaced is a completely different discussion, isn't it?

He's 20 and has had injury issues. What exactly were you expecting from him?

Preconceived ideas please!
You say that to every poster, that has a difference of opinion to you...

 

[gadj1976]

Next year it's time for the younger players, to actually take the next step and take a spot or at least show they can actually make it at the level...

Players that have stepped up this year...	Motlop, O'Brien, Cottrell & Durdin
Players we know what we get and need to replace...	Dow, Setterfield, Plowman, Martin, Fisher, Owies & Newnes
Players who need to step up and take their spots or face being delisted or traded...	Stocker, Kemp, Carroll, Cuningham, Philp, Honey & Boyd
Players that it's probably to late...	Fogarty, Parks, Dow, Setterfield & Hayes

I'd add O'Brien to the too late list. He's just no good by foot. I'd also add Newnes to that list. In the last few games he's not done enough even though I was holding onto a spot for him, in my head.

Martin and Fisher are fine.

Plow's just the whipping boy, much like Jones last year where his skill level wasn't the best under pressure.

Stocker I rate, along with Cuningham. Philp and Carroll I haven't seen enough of. Boyd... just not sure where he fits in.

 

[Santo the king]

Some interesting opinions being shared. Let me add some fuel to the fire.

Would we entertain Gaff, our isacc smith pick up?
Stevenson, from north could be an anything or the worst player ever.

 

[Beyond Blue]

Some interesting opinions being shared. Let me add some fuel to the fire.

Would we entertain Gaff, our isacc smith pick up?
Stevenson, from north could be an anything or the worst player ever.

I agree he would be a good fit for us but the cost of getting him is likely too high. We cooled on Amon coz he wanted more than $600k/year but Gaff would be on much more than that, and even if they agreed to pay part of his salary then we’d have to give up a higher draft pick.

If we want an experienced player with “premiership winning know-how” I’d be looking at Luke Breust as he is still capable of kicking a few goals, something we currently lack in our small forward stocks, whilst also being able to mentor Durdin, Honey, Owies and Motlop.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about finding replacements for guys like Martin, Fisher, Owies or Plowman. It's not to say they can't be part of a flag side (worse players have medals), but the also sit in those tenuous positions whereby they're not absolute best 22 locks, so upgrading them offers a chance for improvement.

As an exercise - here are the roles I think we probably need to have filled most weeks:

FB: Lockdown small, Full back, Intercept defender
HB: Rebounder, Centre half back, Rebounder
MID: Defensive wing, Defensive Mid, Offensive wing
RUC: Ruck, Clearance Mid, Receiving Mid
HF: Forward/mid, High forward target, General forward
FF: Pressure small, Key forward, Goal-kicking small
INT: Resting ruck/forward, defensive rotation, mid rotation, mid rotation

The players I think we can lock into those spots:

FB: Lockdown small, WEITERING, Intercept defender
HB: DOCHERTY, YOUNG, SAAD
MID: Defensive wing, HEWETT, Offensive wing
RUC: PITTONET, CRIPPS, WALSH
HF: Forward/mid, CURNOW, SILVAGNI
FF: Pressure small, MCKAY, Goal-kicking small
INT: DE KONING, defensive rotation, CERRA, mid rotation

Then we start looking at likely incumbents for the other spots based on who the club have regularly turned to when available:

FB: NEWMAN, WEITERING, MCGOVERN
HB: DOCHERTY, YOUNG, SAAD
MID: COTTRELL, HEWETT, O'BRIEN
RUC: PITTONET, CRIPPS, WALSH
HF: FISHER, CURNOW, SILVAGNI
FF: DURDIN, MCKAY, MOTLOP
INT: DE KONING, MARCHBANK, CERRA, KENNEDY

Those names are the ones I think are absolutely fair game for discussion, for various reasons. They don't have the credits banked to be able to trade on anything other than immediate form.

Newman - mature, consistent, but not super well suited to clamping down on a dangerous small forward. Argument to be made that Boyd could be better suited for our needs.

McGovern - oft-injured, best 22 when he's fit, necessitates having a genuine AFL-grade intercept defender waiting in the ressies as coverage.

Cottrell - improving, could be replaced with a mature option for a flag push, but being a defensive role it's probably not an area of great need.

O'Brien - improving, could be replaced with a mature option for a flag push, a gun offensive wing could be transformative.

Fisher - improving, started hot, tapered off, gap between best and worst is still pretty wide, could be replaced with a mature option for a flag push.

Durdin - improving, could be replaced with a mature option for a flag push, but being a defensive role it's probably not an area of great need.

Motlop - improving, could be replaced with a mature option for a flag push, a gun goal-kicking small could be transformative.

Marchbank - oft-injured, club seems to rate him as best 22 when fit, are he and Gov a bit redundant in the same side though?

Kennedy - could possibly be considered a lock, but I think if we felt that we needed something new in the midfield mix then Kennedy would be the first out.

And that's not even bringing into the discussion the guys that I don't have in the best 22 here but you could argue for bringing in ahead of some of the players listed above - Williams, Plowman, Martin, Owies, Stocker, Boyd, Honey, Newnes, McDonald.

It's not to say these players are outright not good enough - just that they represent the most likely opportunity for us to improve our side via recruitment and replacement.

 

[Pixelshooter]

We clearly need more kids (and learn to develop them) from the draft rather than go the recycled player well (granted Hewett has been a gem)

I would take a dump, wrap it in tin foil, microwave it and then eat my if we traded for Grundy.

I wouldn't be trading for him...but given the Pies are into McStay and one or two others, they may be open to moving him on if a suitable arrangement could be made. Would free up a fair bit of cap space for them.

But agree...I woudn't be throwing too much their way.

 

[gadj1976]

I love these calls that 'x player' can be traded for a second rounder/third rounder like that player is automatically going to be better than 'x player' they replaced.

FFS people wake up!

 

[gbatman]

A few injuries and we are crying out for body strength around the midfield, we are getting monstered without Kennedy and Hewett especially. No Cripps next week and we look light pushovers.

An attacking running defender who can relieve Docherty and Saad who are carrying that side at the moment, heads up, it's not Newnes. Williamson and Newman out hurts.

Wingmen, we are playing 3, 4 if you count Newnes on the weekend and only O'Brien is looking much good. Cottrell has not touched a contest all year or got out of first gear to chase an opponent, only interested in running up and down over playing football, doesn't stack up to how the better wingers play. Outside run from players who can get involved in the contest and apply pressure is desperately needed.

Could be better in the ruck.

There are a few areas popping up where we look weak with a few players out for various reasons.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I love these calls that 'x player' can be traded for a second rounder/third rounder like that player is automatically going to be better than 'x player' they replaced.

FFS people wake up!

List management thread might not be the place for you then...

 

[Jeremias]

Preconceived ideas please!
You say that to every poster, that has a difference of opinion to you...

I do? Show me one other time I've said that.

I love these calls that 'x player' can be traded for a second rounder/third rounder like that player is automatically going to be better than 'x player' they replaced.

FFS people wake up!

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Yeah, Elmer_Judd is wrong. I see no reason why we can't win the flag in that fifth year.

It will take that long at a minimum. Our list is balanced wrong and we have too many that pick and choose their day on when they would like to have a crack

 

[Stamos]

It will take that long at a minimum. Our list is balanced wrong and we have too many that pick and choose their day on when they would like to have a crack

You really think it will take at least another 5 years to be a contender?
We've been destroyed by injuries this year, have a young list and have only had 1 pre-season with our new coach.
We're not the finished product, but we're not that far away.

 

[TENACIOUS]

I do? Show me one other time I've said that.

If you hover over my account and click on your content...
You can take your pick...

 

[Blue__Balls]

You really think it will take at least another 5 years to be a contender?
We've been destroyed by injuries this year, have a young list and have only had 1 pre-season with our new coach.
We're not the finished product, but we're not that far away.

I think there is a genuine chance that we don't win a flag for another 5+ years. Not to say we can't or won't contend - but being in the discussion doesn't guarantee anything.

Probably the biggest piece of the puzzle we're missing is maturity and experience in a successful side. You look at what Collingwood are doing at the moment, it's off the back of leadership and valuable contributions from guys like Pendles, Sidebum and Elliott. When the heat is on, we don't have those mature heads to steady the ship on-field and say "right, this is the play". You look at that coast-to-coast goal that Collingwood scored to sink Essendon. Pendles was interviewed afterwards and revealed that he knew most sides would expect a long kick up the corridor, so he told Moore to break left or right if he saw some space, knowing that Wright wouldn't be able to keep up with Moore on the break. You know what Carlton does in that situation - Doc, Weiters or Newman launches a barrel up the guts and we hope that TDK flies and clunks a massive mark.

Now maybe we can add a player or two to assist with that, or maybe we can get a big collective push from our talented players to get us to the top in the next couple of years - but it is equally possible that we're just "thereabouts" for another 4-5 years, making finals, winning some, but ultimately bowing out in the first couple of weeks of September. And it might then be the kids that we draft over the next few years - the ones who get the opportunity to learn in an environment where finals are a minimum expectation, from guys who have played in big finals for a few years - who get us to the next flag, while someone like Cripps might be battling for fitness and missing out.

 

[Christou2Kouta]

You really think it will take at least another 5 years to be a contender?
We've been destroyed by injuries this year, have a young list and have only had 1 pre-season with our new coach.
We're not the finished product, but we're not that far away.

Yeah, the whole benefit to having a youthful list (particularly youthful key players) is that you have a number of seasons where the stars can align where you recruit the right complementary pieces, avoid a heinous run with injury or benefit from major opponents having a bad run.

With Melbourne, we saw how many years it took for Gawn and Petracca to develop into the players they wanted them to be, along with trading in critical cogs such as May, Lever and Langdon and drafting young players who could add some dynamism like Pickett, Spargo and Sparrow. Eventually, if you get the culture right the stars will align for a crack at a premiership.

I have faith that Voss and co are creating that culture and I have hope that one year we won't have a double digit injury list for the duration of the season.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Voss's son fits that spot and would be around our second pick

It's potentially Boyd or Williams from our current stocks.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

No team is ever 5 years away from a premiership, let alone a side with our top end talent.

We are bottom 6/depth and maturity away from contending.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

I love these calls that 'x player' can be traded for a second rounder/third rounder like that player is automatically going to be better than 'x player' they replaced.

FFS people wake up!

Who said anything about automatic? If we had access to enough players at a whim who were 'automatically' good enough for our needs then we'd be winning flags all the time.

List management is a tough caper and it's never a matter of simply having 'X' amount of players who we can plonk in a particular spot just because they are the closest match that we have. We are continually adding players who get lost in 'the soup' of what is basically a bog standard AFL setup. We don't need to keep them all and we don't need 'senior replacements', we need an under-swell of players from the bottom up who can add to and challenge the players who are already cemented in the side. I think a lot of people need to wake-up and not necessarily those who don't think a second or third rounder would be 'unders' for Mr Automatic who happens to be "x player".

 

[HereComesJuddy]

You really think it will take at least another 5 years to be a contender?
We've been destroyed by injuries this year, have a young list and have only had 1 pre-season with our new coach.
We're not the finished product, but we're not that far away.

Imo our balance is wrong. Then on top of that we won't really be bringing in many high quality picks and free agents as we will be giving that money to Charlie, McKay and TDK next year.

Our hands are somewhat tied for the next few years and we unfortunately have players that pick and choose when they feel like playing.

Id be beyond surprised if we move much further forward unless we make some big decisions and release some players that many fans wouldn't approve of