Lol I wouldnt give Bootsma up for Gaff, well maybe Bootsma but that's about it
Guy is definition of outside flake, and he isnt even that good at it
Guy is definition of outside flake, and he isnt even that good at it
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
List Mgmt. 2014: The List
- Thread starter HARKER
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Wonder if we could get Daniel Menzel really cheap, and have a Menzel on each flank. 
The current state of the list absolutely comes down to an absolute lack of strategy and cohesion between the Senior Executives, the Football Department and the Recruiting Department.
Senior executives had no visible long term vision which was driven down to the football department. You don't win premierships in this day without creating a long term strategic plan. It was get Chris Judd, throw in some other first round picks and off we go.
In consultation with the football department, circa 2005 a 'blueprint' of the prototype of football should have been created, much like what Hawthorn had started a few years earlier. Sufficient resourcing should have been rolled into talent identification and development. There is no doubt it was left to Ratten to dictate his desire to recruit some solid mature agers... Ellard, Armfield, Mclean, Curnow, Cachia, Rowe, White, Bell... who will only ever be C grade footballers and now leave us in a position where we have no choice but to go into games with to many C graders. Did I forget to mention similar selections now delisted. Duigan, Joseph, Pffeifer, Ackland and Cloke. Tell me.. was any of this group ever going to become long term A-Graders. How do we rate the kicking skills in this group? How many wasted selections. If we had of fluked 2-3 A graders with all these selections we would be a hell of alot better off today
All was left to our wonderful recruitment department with no 'blueprint' to add to our woes. We couldn't have done any worse or better with our No/1 and No/2 picks. Any wannabe on big footy could have called out the names Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer and Walker. It was the absolute deplorable recruiting from this point through to our armoury of steady C grade mature age rookies where the complete disaster started and ended.
If we had included some very simple ingredients in our recruiting 'blueprint' we would not be here today. Let's just say in all there wisdom, experience and foresight our leaders decided on a above average pro-type rating to include the following traits; kicking skills, game awareness, evasiveness and mental toughness. we surely would have not recruited the following kids. Davies, Bootsma, Mcarthy, Mitchell, Hampson, Robinson, Austin, Benjamin, Mitchell, Brown. I think it was pretty evident that Davies, Hampson and Robinson all had poor kicking skills, the you tube clips could have revealed this. Throw in a few softies and fumblers and not many would have seen the front door at Carlton.
Where to now? Create a clear 'recruiting blueprint' and get rid of those who clearly did not have the smarts and vision to do this in the first place. Let's start with recruiting a list manager please. Someone who can ensure that a clear plan is created and followed through.
Mick clealry has not picked up on this which is a real concern. Everitt is only ever going to be a C grader and I am pretty confident that Daisy will never get back to becoming and A grade midfielder. Don't stuff it up again Mick.
We have absolutely no value trading most of our C graders, they will need to simply phase out slowly over the next 3 or 4 years.
If we can get a pick after our first live pick for Gibbs we need to make this move. Walker could at a stretch command a late 1st rounder to a premier team. Kruezer should also be a trade consideration. Robinson and Bell? The window is 5 years now. These guys wont be there.. time to jump.
Say picks 4 and 5 and a few second rounders should signal the start of our 5 year plan. Some high quality kids to go with the likes of Yarran, Menzel, Buckley, Cripps and Graham will give us all some much need hope.
End of rant
Senior executives had no visible long term vision which was driven down to the football department. You don't win premierships in this day without creating a long term strategic plan. It was get Chris Judd, throw in some other first round picks and off we go.
In consultation with the football department, circa 2005 a 'blueprint' of the prototype of football should have been created, much like what Hawthorn had started a few years earlier. Sufficient resourcing should have been rolled into talent identification and development. There is no doubt it was left to Ratten to dictate his desire to recruit some solid mature agers... Ellard, Armfield, Mclean, Curnow, Cachia, Rowe, White, Bell... who will only ever be C grade footballers and now leave us in a position where we have no choice but to go into games with to many C graders. Did I forget to mention similar selections now delisted. Duigan, Joseph, Pffeifer, Ackland and Cloke. Tell me.. was any of this group ever going to become long term A-Graders. How do we rate the kicking skills in this group? How many wasted selections. If we had of fluked 2-3 A graders with all these selections we would be a hell of alot better off today
All was left to our wonderful recruitment department with no 'blueprint' to add to our woes. We couldn't have done any worse or better with our No/1 and No/2 picks. Any wannabe on big footy could have called out the names Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer and Walker. It was the absolute deplorable recruiting from this point through to our armoury of steady C grade mature age rookies where the complete disaster started and ended.
If we had included some very simple ingredients in our recruiting 'blueprint' we would not be here today. Let's just say in all there wisdom, experience and foresight our leaders decided on a above average pro-type rating to include the following traits; kicking skills, game awareness, evasiveness and mental toughness. we surely would have not recruited the following kids. Davies, Bootsma, Mcarthy, Mitchell, Hampson, Robinson, Austin, Benjamin, Mitchell, Brown. I think it was pretty evident that Davies, Hampson and Robinson all had poor kicking skills, the you tube clips could have revealed this. Throw in a few softies and fumblers and not many would have seen the front door at Carlton.
Where to now? Create a clear 'recruiting blueprint' and get rid of those who clearly did not have the smarts and vision to do this in the first place. Let's start with recruiting a list manager please. Someone who can ensure that a clear plan is created and followed through.
Mick clealry has not picked up on this which is a real concern. Everitt is only ever going to be a C grader and I am pretty confident that Daisy will never get back to becoming and A grade midfielder. Don't stuff it up again Mick.
We have absolutely no value trading most of our C graders, they will need to simply phase out slowly over the next 3 or 4 years.
If we can get a pick after our first live pick for Gibbs we need to make this move. Walker could at a stretch command a late 1st rounder to a premier team. Kruezer should also be a trade consideration. Robinson and Bell? The window is 5 years now. These guys wont be there.. time to jump.
Say picks 4 and 5 and a few second rounders should signal the start of our 5 year plan. Some high quality kids to go with the likes of Yarran, Menzel, Buckley, Cripps and Graham will give us all some much need hope.
End of rant
Wonder if we could get Daniel Menzel really cheap, and have a Menzel on each flank.
Depends on whether he is over his injuries or not.
You've got to be shitting me.
We're crying out for a bit of class on the outside.
They'd want Bootsma as well as a 2nd or 3rd rounder, and I'd almost do it.
Really, really don't see the hype around Bootsma like others do in this place. Am I missing something?
TheMcGrathMan
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- May 24, 2013
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If Carlton finished ahead of just Brisbane/Melbourne/GWS/St Kilda, so getting pick 6, and you then got pick 7 for Gibbs (draft order could be 1. Bris 2. Melb 3. Melb Frawley compo 4. GWS 5. StK 6. Carl 7. Carl), then you could be getting pick 23-24 for Garlett from GWS?
Would you personally take that? Opportunity to do some upgrading for other picks, interested in where Carlton fans exactly rate his trade. I think 23-24 is much too low for a guy who did kick 90 goals over 2 seasons but if Mick can't get the best out of him in 2014, do you take it? Or do you back him in, or look elsewhere for a top 20 pick?
Or would Blues fans consider packaging pick 6 + Garlett in return for a GWS key forward (as well as another draft pick somewhere)?
We are not killing for his kind of outside class
Go look at an eagles game day thread, I live in perth, I go to quite a few games, I wouldnt go as far to say he's universally hated, but he is far from rated, wouldnt want that sort of player at carlton
Ok, you'd know more than me about him then.
But seriously, you would be reluctant to give up Bootsma for him?
IMO it sounds harsh but Bootsma should be one of the first ones we should look at trading, while he is young and has some sort of currency.
I really, really struggle to see him making it at AFL level.
Wickzki
Definitely Sam MacLure.
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Bootsma has little to no currency. They tried to trade him last year and the offers they got were very underwhelming. Unless he gets into the 22 soon and cements a position he'll have even less this October.
Stupid Bootsma. Get some currency.
Wickzki
Definitely Sam MacLure.
- Oct 1, 2010
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Preferably not the dong (Vietnamese), either.
Probably would take it right now but my opinion could change at the end of the season. Depends on how people rate the draft as well.
I'd prefer to trade Garlett for a quality mid or KPP as the steak knives in a larger deal if possible though.
I was joking when I said Bootsma haha, I think Gaff is completely not the kind of playet we are after so I sarcastically said I wouldnt give them Bootsma for him. It was an exxageration, in reality I probably would give Bootsma up for Gaff, but if we are going after the Western Australian sides I think Scott Selwood would be the only gettable one I'd want (Nic Nat and Darls both WA boys, Shuey hasnt found his feet lately due to injury, dont think he'll live up to the potential of his almost rising star year) If we were trading with a western side, Freo would be the better target, Mundy as a free agent for example, one of their hardworking role players like Sutcliffe etc
Freo are pretty weak at the trade table too
But to be honest neither side has much to offer
Selwood has questionable disposal but he finds the pill and has a great defensive edge to his game. Mundy would be nice but is a older player who may cost us a fair chunk of our salary cap to get.
edit: In saying that I love to get Scott Selwood for the right price but I can't see him leaving the Eagles.
Last edited:
TheMcGrathMan
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Ok, so I've spent some time going over the Carlton list and looking at the list for 2014 and 2015 - the two years I think Mick should spend some going over the list to get it to his standards/needs, and then ready to make a real crack at it for 2017 (when Jamison, Simpson, Warnock, Murphy, Walker and I hope Judd are still around).
I'd appreciate it if people realised I put some effort in to do this and would hope people actually realise this (I would hope it's certainly well received moreso than "lolol spud gibbs" or just liking posts). If you don't agree with a statement I made re: one of the players, rather you actually tell me why rather than "clueless" etc which is not going to lead to any decent discussion. It's likely I have made mistakes on some players as I do not watch Carlton 22 times a year nor do I follow the VFL or your preseason intently - so if I have, it is more likely I just haven't watched them enough rather than being a troll etc.
Cheers.
My list follows this format: position - name - age they are turning/turned in 2014 - comments - my keep/trade/delist rating. Also, in general, I have tried to name each position in order of most valuable to least valuable going forward, based on a number of factors including ability, age, leadership, and how I rate them.
Medium/Small defenders (lockdown & rebounding):
Kade Simpson – 30 in 2014 – leader of the club and consistent performer, should be able to leave on his own terms, keep
Zac Tuohy – 25 in 2014 – needs to improve defensively but has 6-7 years left in him, and some powerful tricks – persist with
Sam Docherty – 21 in 2014 – crisp mover, beautiful kick, needs to be best 22 in 2015, persist with
Heath Scotland – 34 in 2014 – can’t see a need for him in 2015 and beyond, retire
Josh Bootsma - 21 in 2014 – personally don’t rate him, too lightly built, would consider any pick under 60 for him (Viv Michie was traded for pick 54, Jesse White 44, Scott Gumbleton 55 – all guys who weren’t really regular best 22 players so that’s around their worth)
Key defenders:
Michael Jamison – 28 in 2014 – dependable, reliable FB who is under the pump so far in 2014. With his injury history can’t see him around in 2018 but he may be worth keeping around for that long anyway. Keep.
Matthew Watson – 3rd tall – 22 in 2014 – copped a belting from Westhoff but I don’t think he’s suited to that type of player. Contracted until 2015 and his own form will basically decide his long term future. I think he really could turn into a roaming defender who uses his long kick as a powerful weapon but kicking is only half the battle as a defender…jury’s out.
Andrew McInnes – medium? – 22 in 2014 – defender who will only continue to grow in stature as he plays more AFL games, plays the percentages well in my opinion. Is undersized for a key back though I believe - keep
Simon White – 26 in 2014 – don’t rate, only on a one year deal so needs to perform this year. Go to trade table, getting overs trade, no worthwhile offers keep as depth
Ruckmen:
Matthew Kreuzer - 25 in 2014 – not a lot to say about this guy. His position as a junior and injuries in the AFL mean he is nowhere near what he should command on the open market. You don’t let such talents go undervalued unless they want out, and by all accounts he doesn’t. - keep
Robert Warnock - 27 in 2014 – limited, but okay ruckman. Never going to get past limited due to his sheer size, and sides prefer to pick up rucks on the cheap these days rather than paying lower than a pick 25 for a 27 y.o ruckman (I would think he is worth somewhere between 20-25, Hampson was pick 28 and Warnock is better) - keep
Cameron Wood – 27 in 2014 – depth ruckman in case Warnock goes down - keep
Inside midfielders:
Chris Judd – 31 in 2014 – past his best but still a gun. Keep
Andrew Carrazzo – 31 in 2014 – would hope he’s phased out over the next year or two, possibly retire at end of 2015 and straight into a coaching role (he’s seemingly rated quite highly for his leadership credentials?). Retire at end of 2015/2016.
Patrick Cripps – 19 in 2014 – one of the few mids at Carlton who has the height & size for a Fremantle/Essendon/Geelong midfield battle, pretty simple this one – keep
Nick Graham - 20 in 2014 – only the 3 games, seems a likely type - keep
David Ellard – 25 in 2014 – in my opinion nothing more than an honest player. Gets a gig in 2015 because too many of his teammates aren’t as honest, but don’t see him in a premiership Guernsey – retire 2015
Brock McLean – 28 in 2014 – good pick up for Carlton but think his time is up. 2014 may be his last season – phase out over 2014, possibly 2015. Should not be in long term plans
Nick Holman – 19 in 2014 – young kid yet to play a game, pick 51 in his draft but good around the stoppages, apparently pretty tough and has a bit of height about him (187cm) so if he can put some weight on too - keep
Tom Bell – 23 in 2014 – an intermediate/transition player (i.e. for a team either who’s rebuilding or bottoming out), I see him as a probable Matt Thomas/Shaun Grigg type, good enough for an average side but needs to be worked out of the side by quality youngsters to really go forwards – ok depth, so maybe keep depending on how off-season list management pans out
Outside midfielders:
Marc Murphy - 27 in 2014 – cops a raw deal but fairly durable (his main injuries have been collision rather than soft tissue I think), captain and a gun when on. Needs to be playing good football until he’s 33ish (i.e. 2020) - keep
Bryce Gibbs – 25 in 2014 – do not think he is worth paying $600-700k for, $500k max and that’s only if he can improve on what we’ve seen so far this year – keep if $$ is good, if he demands wave him goodbye and welcome top 10 pick with open arms
Dale Thomas – inside/outside – 27 in 2014 – injury issues but he’s professional enough to work his way through them, gut runner who does the easy stuff and the hard stuff simultaneously – keep
Dylan Buckley – 21 in 2014 – his round 2 nomination said it all about his future talent - keep
Kane Lucas – 23 in 2014 – underwhelming thus far and I can’t think of any bad injury troubles (no OP, no injuries affecting his power/long-term conditioning) that he has had recently? Won’t get what you want on the open market but he isn’t the player hoped to be either – keep unless can be used in a strategic trade – e.g. Mitch Brown (WC) + pick 37ish for Lucas and steak knvies
Taggers:
Ed Curnow – 25 in 2014 – good tagger, Crowley ahead but no reason to not consider him next to Hocking/Cornes in my opinion (certainly in 2014 anyway) - keep
Jaryd Cachia – 23 in 2014 – effectively Curnows replacement. Unlikely you’d get anything below pick 50 for him, and so not worth testing the trade waters for him as he is still rookie listed – keep until his rookie list time is up
Medium/Small forwards:
Chris Yarran - 24 in 2014 – trade bait at end of 2013, but seemingly turning a corner for 2014. One of the few Carlton footballers who can honestly say they improved over the preseason imo - keep
Troy Menzel – 20 in 2014 - keep
Jeff Garlett – 25 in 2014 – already posted asking about his trade price – look for top 25 pick otherwise persist
Andrejs Everitt – medium – 25 in 2014 – tagged Deledio in one game and showed some forward smarts in others - keep
Tom Temay – 20 in 2014 – would think a lot of other teammates are in the firing line before him - keep
Luke Reynolds – medium – 19 in 2014 – a bit of extra size is what Blues could use, don’t know much about him but if he has some bastard in him I’d be giving him an upgrade onto the senior list and getting some games into him, hails from Port Adelaide – upgrade onto senior list
Blaine Johnson – 19 in 2014 - played seniors in the WAFL– WAFL senior player, worth persisting with on rookie list
Key forwards:
Jarrad Waite – 31 in 2014 – on his last legs, may get to 2015/2016 but time to look to the next key forward because he just isn’t going to cut it long term (I can’t see a guy with his injury/suspension history making it to 2018ish where he would be 35) – retire at end of 2015
Levi Casboult – 24 in 2014 – I can personally see a bit of the JPod about him, very good contested grab and a lot of size about him, would look to him to guide the forward line along with Henderson for 2015 and beyond
Sam Rowe – 27 in 2014 – unfairly criticised by a lot of Blues fans imo, but he’s learning the ropes as a defender. Unfortunately, at 27, I don’t think he will be a long term key defender, as he gets the necessary experience he will be close to 30…If he were 21 with the same performances I’d be happy with him - look elsewhere imo, albeit harsh for a guy who has lacked opportunity
Defensive forwards:
Mitch Robinson – 25 in 2014 – get an extra 9 games into him for his 100th and he might have some smart kids, just turns it over too much in modern footy for me – trade/delist
Dennis Armfield – 28 in 2014 – contracted until 2015, not on Carlton’s injury list however so I’d assume his absence thus far in 2014 indicates Mick rates him same as me – delist at end of current contract
Swingmen:
Lachie Henderson – 25 in 2014 – should be one of the few Carlton players worthy of commanding some big $$$ over the next 2 years, would be hesitant to give him up for anything… - keep
Andrew Walker - 28 in 2014 – good player but as a defender don’t think he’s a matchwinner or a star, did get 2nd in the B&F though and is on til 2016 – trade bait for top 13-14 pick/younger but similar player, otherwise keep and play him forward!!
Cameron Giles - 19 in 2014 – CFC states he is 195cm and still growing, can play a number of positions – keep?
Undeveloped Irishmen:
Ciaran Sheehan - luck of the Irish
Ciaran Byrne – luck of the Irish
Summary:
Delist/Trade at end of 2014 (clean out year):
Mitch Robinson (trade waters or delist)
Sam Rowe (trade waters or delist)
Tom Bell (trade waters or delist)
Simon White (delist)
Jeff Garlett – if form continues as is, pick 24 would be worthwhile I believe (need to target a sensible, reliable type though with this pick – no speculative small forwards/wiry ruckman etc). If he turns it around, obvious keep
Josh Bootsma – pick 50ish
Bryce Gibbs (free agency - receive first round comp pick)
Heath Scotland (rookie list)
Jaryd Cachia (rookie list)
Delist/Trade at end of 2015:
Dennis Armfield
Jarrad Waite
Kane Lucas – test the trade waters and look to grab a kid being kept out of a strong team but with good credentials (e.g. Hallahan at Hawks, Crozier at Fremantle – added benefit of the other team likely throwing in an extra draft pick)
Brock McLean
In’s:
2014: Draft picks 6, 7 (Gibbs), 24 (Garlett), 26, 45, 50 (Bootsma)
Also likely some talent floating around from GC/GWS/Geelong/Hawthorn (clubs either with an abundance of recent high draft picks or strong performers – some guys on the outer at those clubs would blossom elsewhere – could try trading that 60-65 pick for one e.g. Alex Woodward-Hawthorn or Lincoln McCarthy – Geelong)
2015: 7, 25, 43, 61
Best 22 for start of 2016:
B: Zac Tuohy, Michael Jamison, Andrew McInnes
HB: Kade Simpson, Matthew Watson, Sam Docherty
C: Dale Thomas, Nick Graham, Dylan Buckley
HF: Andrew Walker, Lachie Henderson, Troy Menzel
F: Chris Yarran, Levi Casboult, Luke Reynolds/Andrejs Everitt
Foll: Matthew Kreuzer, Marc Murphy, Patrick Cripps
Bench: Robert Warnock, Chris Judd, Ed Curnow
Sub: Tom Temay/Nick Holman etc
To add to this you have 3 top 10 draft picks, 3 mid 20 picks and some more speculative picks so Watson/Warnock/Curnow/sub position/forward pocket could all have some very talented players there. Jeff Garlett also could be there...
I'd appreciate it if people realised I put some effort in to do this and would hope people actually realise this (I would hope it's certainly well received moreso than "lolol spud gibbs" or just liking posts). If you don't agree with a statement I made re: one of the players, rather you actually tell me why rather than "clueless" etc which is not going to lead to any decent discussion. It's likely I have made mistakes on some players as I do not watch Carlton 22 times a year nor do I follow the VFL or your preseason intently - so if I have, it is more likely I just haven't watched them enough rather than being a troll etc.
Cheers.
My list follows this format: position - name - age they are turning/turned in 2014 - comments - my keep/trade/delist rating. Also, in general, I have tried to name each position in order of most valuable to least valuable going forward, based on a number of factors including ability, age, leadership, and how I rate them.
Medium/Small defenders (lockdown & rebounding):
Kade Simpson – 30 in 2014 – leader of the club and consistent performer, should be able to leave on his own terms, keep
Zac Tuohy – 25 in 2014 – needs to improve defensively but has 6-7 years left in him, and some powerful tricks – persist with
Sam Docherty – 21 in 2014 – crisp mover, beautiful kick, needs to be best 22 in 2015, persist with
Heath Scotland – 34 in 2014 – can’t see a need for him in 2015 and beyond, retire
Josh Bootsma - 21 in 2014 – personally don’t rate him, too lightly built, would consider any pick under 60 for him (Viv Michie was traded for pick 54, Jesse White 44, Scott Gumbleton 55 – all guys who weren’t really regular best 22 players so that’s around their worth)
Key defenders:
Michael Jamison – 28 in 2014 – dependable, reliable FB who is under the pump so far in 2014. With his injury history can’t see him around in 2018 but he may be worth keeping around for that long anyway. Keep.
Matthew Watson – 3rd tall – 22 in 2014 – copped a belting from Westhoff but I don’t think he’s suited to that type of player. Contracted until 2015 and his own form will basically decide his long term future. I think he really could turn into a roaming defender who uses his long kick as a powerful weapon but kicking is only half the battle as a defender…jury’s out.
Andrew McInnes – medium? – 22 in 2014 – defender who will only continue to grow in stature as he plays more AFL games, plays the percentages well in my opinion. Is undersized for a key back though I believe - keep
Simon White – 26 in 2014 – don’t rate, only on a one year deal so needs to perform this year. Go to trade table, getting overs trade, no worthwhile offers keep as depth
Ruckmen:
Matthew Kreuzer - 25 in 2014 – not a lot to say about this guy. His position as a junior and injuries in the AFL mean he is nowhere near what he should command on the open market. You don’t let such talents go undervalued unless they want out, and by all accounts he doesn’t. - keep
Robert Warnock - 27 in 2014 – limited, but okay ruckman. Never going to get past limited due to his sheer size, and sides prefer to pick up rucks on the cheap these days rather than paying lower than a pick 25 for a 27 y.o ruckman (I would think he is worth somewhere between 20-25, Hampson was pick 28 and Warnock is better) - keep
Cameron Wood – 27 in 2014 – depth ruckman in case Warnock goes down - keep
Inside midfielders:
Chris Judd – 31 in 2014 – past his best but still a gun. Keep
Andrew Carrazzo – 31 in 2014 – would hope he’s phased out over the next year or two, possibly retire at end of 2015 and straight into a coaching role (he’s seemingly rated quite highly for his leadership credentials?). Retire at end of 2015/2016.
Patrick Cripps – 19 in 2014 – one of the few mids at Carlton who has the height & size for a Fremantle/Essendon/Geelong midfield battle, pretty simple this one – keep
Nick Graham - 20 in 2014 – only the 3 games, seems a likely type - keep
David Ellard – 25 in 2014 – in my opinion nothing more than an honest player. Gets a gig in 2015 because too many of his teammates aren’t as honest, but don’t see him in a premiership Guernsey – retire 2015
Brock McLean – 28 in 2014 – good pick up for Carlton but think his time is up. 2014 may be his last season – phase out over 2014, possibly 2015. Should not be in long term plans
Nick Holman – 19 in 2014 – young kid yet to play a game, pick 51 in his draft but good around the stoppages, apparently pretty tough and has a bit of height about him (187cm) so if he can put some weight on too - keep
Tom Bell – 23 in 2014 – an intermediate/transition player (i.e. for a team either who’s rebuilding or bottoming out), I see him as a probable Matt Thomas/Shaun Grigg type, good enough for an average side but needs to be worked out of the side by quality youngsters to really go forwards – ok depth, so maybe keep depending on how off-season list management pans out
Outside midfielders:
Marc Murphy - 27 in 2014 – cops a raw deal but fairly durable (his main injuries have been collision rather than soft tissue I think), captain and a gun when on. Needs to be playing good football until he’s 33ish (i.e. 2020) - keep
Bryce Gibbs – 25 in 2014 – do not think he is worth paying $600-700k for, $500k max and that’s only if he can improve on what we’ve seen so far this year – keep if $$ is good, if he demands wave him goodbye and welcome top 10 pick with open arms
Dale Thomas – inside/outside – 27 in 2014 – injury issues but he’s professional enough to work his way through them, gut runner who does the easy stuff and the hard stuff simultaneously – keep
Dylan Buckley – 21 in 2014 – his round 2 nomination said it all about his future talent - keep
Kane Lucas – 23 in 2014 – underwhelming thus far and I can’t think of any bad injury troubles (no OP, no injuries affecting his power/long-term conditioning) that he has had recently? Won’t get what you want on the open market but he isn’t the player hoped to be either – keep unless can be used in a strategic trade – e.g. Mitch Brown (WC) + pick 37ish for Lucas and steak knvies
Taggers:
Ed Curnow – 25 in 2014 – good tagger, Crowley ahead but no reason to not consider him next to Hocking/Cornes in my opinion (certainly in 2014 anyway) - keep
Jaryd Cachia – 23 in 2014 – effectively Curnows replacement. Unlikely you’d get anything below pick 50 for him, and so not worth testing the trade waters for him as he is still rookie listed – keep until his rookie list time is up
Medium/Small forwards:
Chris Yarran - 24 in 2014 – trade bait at end of 2013, but seemingly turning a corner for 2014. One of the few Carlton footballers who can honestly say they improved over the preseason imo - keep
Troy Menzel – 20 in 2014 - keep
Jeff Garlett – 25 in 2014 – already posted asking about his trade price – look for top 25 pick otherwise persist
Andrejs Everitt – medium – 25 in 2014 – tagged Deledio in one game and showed some forward smarts in others - keep
Tom Temay – 20 in 2014 – would think a lot of other teammates are in the firing line before him - keep
Luke Reynolds – medium – 19 in 2014 – a bit of extra size is what Blues could use, don’t know much about him but if he has some bastard in him I’d be giving him an upgrade onto the senior list and getting some games into him, hails from Port Adelaide – upgrade onto senior list
Blaine Johnson – 19 in 2014 - played seniors in the WAFL– WAFL senior player, worth persisting with on rookie list
Key forwards:
Jarrad Waite – 31 in 2014 – on his last legs, may get to 2015/2016 but time to look to the next key forward because he just isn’t going to cut it long term (I can’t see a guy with his injury/suspension history making it to 2018ish where he would be 35) – retire at end of 2015
Levi Casboult – 24 in 2014 – I can personally see a bit of the JPod about him, very good contested grab and a lot of size about him, would look to him to guide the forward line along with Henderson for 2015 and beyond
Sam Rowe – 27 in 2014 – unfairly criticised by a lot of Blues fans imo, but he’s learning the ropes as a defender. Unfortunately, at 27, I don’t think he will be a long term key defender, as he gets the necessary experience he will be close to 30…If he were 21 with the same performances I’d be happy with him - look elsewhere imo, albeit harsh for a guy who has lacked opportunity
Defensive forwards:
Mitch Robinson – 25 in 2014 – get an extra 9 games into him for his 100th and he might have some smart kids, just turns it over too much in modern footy for me – trade/delist
Dennis Armfield – 28 in 2014 – contracted until 2015, not on Carlton’s injury list however so I’d assume his absence thus far in 2014 indicates Mick rates him same as me – delist at end of current contract
Swingmen:
Lachie Henderson – 25 in 2014 – should be one of the few Carlton players worthy of commanding some big $$$ over the next 2 years, would be hesitant to give him up for anything… - keep
Andrew Walker - 28 in 2014 – good player but as a defender don’t think he’s a matchwinner or a star, did get 2nd in the B&F though and is on til 2016 – trade bait for top 13-14 pick/younger but similar player, otherwise keep and play him forward!!
Cameron Giles - 19 in 2014 – CFC states he is 195cm and still growing, can play a number of positions – keep?
Undeveloped Irishmen:
Ciaran Sheehan - luck of the Irish
Ciaran Byrne – luck of the Irish
Summary:
Delist/Trade at end of 2014 (clean out year):
Mitch Robinson (trade waters or delist)
Sam Rowe (trade waters or delist)
Tom Bell (trade waters or delist)
Simon White (delist)
Jeff Garlett – if form continues as is, pick 24 would be worthwhile I believe (need to target a sensible, reliable type though with this pick – no speculative small forwards/wiry ruckman etc). If he turns it around, obvious keep
Josh Bootsma – pick 50ish
Bryce Gibbs (free agency - receive first round comp pick)
Heath Scotland (rookie list)
Jaryd Cachia (rookie list)
Delist/Trade at end of 2015:
Dennis Armfield
Jarrad Waite
Kane Lucas – test the trade waters and look to grab a kid being kept out of a strong team but with good credentials (e.g. Hallahan at Hawks, Crozier at Fremantle – added benefit of the other team likely throwing in an extra draft pick)
Brock McLean
In’s:
2014: Draft picks 6, 7 (Gibbs), 24 (Garlett), 26, 45, 50 (Bootsma)
Also likely some talent floating around from GC/GWS/Geelong/Hawthorn (clubs either with an abundance of recent high draft picks or strong performers – some guys on the outer at those clubs would blossom elsewhere – could try trading that 60-65 pick for one e.g. Alex Woodward-Hawthorn or Lincoln McCarthy – Geelong)
2015: 7, 25, 43, 61
Best 22 for start of 2016:
B: Zac Tuohy, Michael Jamison, Andrew McInnes
HB: Kade Simpson, Matthew Watson, Sam Docherty
C: Dale Thomas, Nick Graham, Dylan Buckley
HF: Andrew Walker, Lachie Henderson, Troy Menzel
F: Chris Yarran, Levi Casboult, Luke Reynolds/Andrejs Everitt
Foll: Matthew Kreuzer, Marc Murphy, Patrick Cripps
Bench: Robert Warnock, Chris Judd, Ed Curnow
Sub: Tom Temay/Nick Holman etc
To add to this you have 3 top 10 draft picks, 3 mid 20 picks and some more speculative picks so Watson/Warnock/Curnow/sub position/forward pocket could all have some very talented players there. Jeff Garlett also could be there...
Plenty of effort in this post...
The key for me is simple...
Do whatever it takes to get Patton or my favourite and a few others, Boyd...
TheMcGrathMan
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- May 24, 2013
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Plenty of effort in this post...
The key for me is simple...
Do whatever it takes to get Patton or my favourite and a few others, Boyd...
'Unfortunately' for Carlton, I reckon Adam Tomlinson is more likely (unfortunate being an unfortunate use of the word, as Tomlinson is no slouch...)
[quote="TheMcGrathMan, po
To add to this you have 3 top 10 draft picks, 3 mid 20 picks and some more speculative picks so Watson/Warnock/Curnow/sub position/forward pocket could all have some very talented players there. Jeff Garlett also could be there...[/quote]
Pretty much agree with your assessment of possible in's and out's. It is a real shame that Robinson cannot get his decision making and disposal right as we all love his attack on the ball. I would probably pull the trigger on a few of the C grade players earlier but it does depend on there contract status.
I would pull the pin OR TRADE on Armfield, Cachia, Mclean, Robinson, Bell, Ellard, Bootsma... depending on contract status, we need to start bringing in some kids that can kick and have game awareness. All these guys have been given plenty of opportunity.
To add to this you have 3 top 10 draft picks, 3 mid 20 picks and some more speculative picks so Watson/Warnock/Curnow/sub position/forward pocket could all have some very talented players there. Jeff Garlett also could be there...[/quote]
Pretty much agree with your assessment of possible in's and out's. It is a real shame that Robinson cannot get his decision making and disposal right as we all love his attack on the ball. I would probably pull the trigger on a few of the C grade players earlier but it does depend on there contract status.
I would pull the pin OR TRADE on Armfield, Cachia, Mclean, Robinson, Bell, Ellard, Bootsma... depending on contract status, we need to start bringing in some kids that can kick and have game awareness. All these guys have been given plenty of opportunity.
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Mick talks about good lists having 8-graders and when you look at ours it's hard to see them because of either injury plagued 2013 and/or interrupted pre-season for 2014. Dug a bit deeper and included 2012 form when pulling apart the list and have broken it down as follows:
Players 24 years and above:
A-grade (at some point in the past 3 seasons):
Simpson, Thomas, Walker, McLean, Judd, Murphy
B-grade
Gibbs, Robinson, Kreuzer, Carrazzo, Henderson, Curnow
C-grade
Waite, Jamison, Garlett, Ellard, Warnock, Scotland, Tuohy
D-grade
Armfield, Casboult, Everitt, White, Rowe
Players 24 years and below:
A-grade (on exposed form):
B-grade
Menzel, Yarran
C-grade
Docherty, Lucas, Buckley, Graham, Bell
D-grade
Watson, Bootsma, McInnes, Cachia
Cripps and any players yet to play not included.
From the younger group you'd expect them to at least take a 1 step-up over the next 2 seasons. The question marks tends to be on players in the 24+ group rediscovering form they are capable of. Guys like Kreuzer, Robinson, Thomas and McLean have all significantly dropped in the past couple of seasons and are all at or under their primes so it's not beyond question them getting BOGs in the Carlton jumper at some point
Players 24 years and above:
A-grade (at some point in the past 3 seasons):
Simpson, Thomas, Walker, McLean, Judd, Murphy
B-grade
Gibbs, Robinson, Kreuzer, Carrazzo, Henderson, Curnow
C-grade
Waite, Jamison, Garlett, Ellard, Warnock, Scotland, Tuohy
D-grade
Armfield, Casboult, Everitt, White, Rowe
Players 24 years and below:
A-grade (on exposed form):
B-grade
Menzel, Yarran
C-grade
Docherty, Lucas, Buckley, Graham, Bell
D-grade
Watson, Bootsma, McInnes, Cachia
Cripps and any players yet to play not included.
From the younger group you'd expect them to at least take a 1 step-up over the next 2 seasons. The question marks tends to be on players in the 24+ group rediscovering form they are capable of. Guys like Kreuzer, Robinson, Thomas and McLean have all significantly dropped in the past couple of seasons and are all at or under their primes so it's not beyond question them getting BOGs in the Carlton jumper at some point
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And you think the rest of the AFL recruiters would think differently, whilst he can't get in our best 22 he has zero currency.
JustaBattler
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Malthouse is playing a few at the moment - in a serious attempt to get some trade value up - "yeah mate do your best ..you are in a form slump , just keep trying and you can turn it around...bsbsbsbsbsbsbsbsbsb -
Lucas/casboult and Bootsma were on the trade table last year- no buyers - Warnock, Mclean, Garlett will probabl;y join them
BIGGUS 64
Premiership Player
BIGGUS 64
Premiership Player
Wow!
Love your work mate, this is some serious footy geekery here! (And I mean that in a good way.)
An impressive detailed analysis of our list - by an opposing fan.
I could never do this, I'm way too one-eyed. I'd be doing well to name and recognize by sight five players on the current Norf list (for example)!
You are more upbeat about our list than plenty of Carlton fans I suspect, and you don't seem to feel we are needing a clean-out, just a good pruning with wise drafting over the next few years.
I'm glad you rate Watson as a keeper, and Casboult. Two guys I'd like to see play plenty of games this season, since I think that's what they mainly need - experience and confidence.
And the coach? You reckon Mick's the man to oversee the renovations?
TheMcGrathMan
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Wow!
Love your work mate, this is some serious footy geekery here! (And I mean that in a good way.)
An impressive detailed analysis of our list - by an opposing fan.
I could never do this, I'm way too one-eyed. I'd be doing well to name and recognize by sight five players on the current Norf list (for example)!
You are more upbeat about our list than plenty of Carlton fans I suspect, and you don't seem to feel we are needing a clean-out, just a good pruning with wise drafting over the next few years.
I'm glad you rate Watson as a keeper, and Casboult. Two guys I'd like to see play plenty of games this season, since I think that's what they mainly need - experience and confidence.
And the coach? You reckon Mick's the man to oversee the renovations?
Thanks for the kind words mate, appreciate it!
Well I think you had your clean out at the end of 2013 - Betts the one I would have wanted to keep but he wanted too much $$ for what was worth it long term, but Laidler/McCarthy/Mitchell/Davies/Duigan/Joseph were not the future, as well as the demotion of Scotland to the rookie list. I still think for a premiership side you have 4-5 players to get rid of, and think they are all in your best 22-25 at the moment (Waite, Robinson, McLean, Bell). Not to mention other guys like Rowe, Lucas, White are not far off the team if you cop a couple of injuries etcc. That's a bigger reason why the season has so far panned out as it has, not the top of your list etc. And I think with a better 16-25th group of players all of a sudden you have a lot better/more A-graders.
I do think Watson & Casboult are worth keeping, might not work it out but Casboult I don't think I've ever seen him take a backward step from a contest, and Watson has been thrown to the wolves more than once, so I think they have room to improve.
I do, and looking at his record (at WC and at Coll) he's done it. He needs his list though, not Rattens or anyone elses. He's already had 8 guys leave (including Hampson), and I think another 4-6 each over the next 2 years will be around 18ish players out. That's starting to build his list. Starting to build a team that can actually play his game style while reverting to the attacking through the center Blues that is the more natural game style for Murphy/Walker/Yarran and co.
Great summary of how I feel. We are seeing the full residual effects of the Ratten / Hughes combination. The Ratten choice really was a poor one. The guy was on his L plates and coaching for survival hence making short term decisions about the list. It will take Malthouse another two years to sort out our list on top of the heavy culling last year. Kernahan and his board must take a good proportion of this blame as you suggest. You have to build a list to win flags over a period of years. That often means skinny kids that need at least two per seasons to get any value. Our board was in too bigger hurry for success and our L player coach tried to add too many mature aged players to accelerate that success.
A poor coaching appointment is the root cause of our current position.
I'm just glad we have our current coach who has the respect of the board to tell them what needs to be done and it seems they are finally listening. He will build the list properly with our recruiters. I really hope he signs an extentions to continue to full renovation that's required.
