List Mgmt. 2014: The List

[HARKER]

Malthouse will want to turn this group into his list and some will suffer.

You wouldn't be wanting to get rid of Bootsma on ability but you may do on application.
He's contracted and you'd hope he's not using this to his advantage.

Lucas also has ability but he's either lost confidence or jest for the game.
Getting closer each week to say that he won't be at the club next year. Can't see the fire in him for wanting to remain.

Watson is pushing as hard as he can and doing everything to show that he really wants to play this game.
No-one is safe but I'd be happy for him to remain.

Whichever way though, we know the knife will be put into the group for Malthouse to get what he wants........unless of course, the board.........

 

[LanceRomance]

Whichever way though, we know the knife will be put into the group for Malthouse to get what he wants........unless of course, the board.........

Wants to make Lucas Captain?

 

[HBF]

Well said HARKER
Just on Lucas, from the games I have seen him play this year he really does look like someone playing with very little confidence.
I think we need to do one of 2 things with him. Either play him for the rest of the year at AFL level and tell him he WILL NOT be dropped.
Or, we tell him to go and find as much footy at VFL level and we will pick him when he essentially has a case of leather poisoning.

Sadly though, I think he will be one that will be moved on at years end.

 

[Silvagnis]

Cringle...you obviously did not watch the bullants today..Kezzas proposed changes are spot on...I believe Judd can decide what he does at the end of the year

Temay is arguably in the same shoes as Buckley in his second year.

Should we have delisted Dylan?

Watson and Bootsma won't be traded unless we get a fair return for contracted players. Boots isn't a first round talent like Polec, but even Port's new star wasn't best 22 in his third season. We don't have to rush every player into footy. I would be surprised if Geelong are planning to cut Hamling and Kersten who were picked in Bootsma's draft.

Mick re-signed these two.

Some don't have time for these players, yet if they see the names Fraser McInnes, Kersten or Ben Griffiths, they're interested in players who haven't played a lot of AFL. Mostly because they're KPP like Watson who is under the pump.

I don't like Ben Griffiths.

 

[Coona Blues]

Going to go on record as saying that the end of season list changes will not be as dramatic as most are expecting.
Unless we target a Free Agent or pull a top end trade from some where, I expect minimal delistings and some targeted drafting.
We have an excellent list of established and developing players. Unless the Irish boys get homesick, I don't expect to see
any of our "new" rookies leaving. The youngsters have half a season to "demand" an upgrade which may impact.
As it stands Scotto and probably Cachia off rookie list. Wood will remain unless we bring in a young ruck. You would not
gamble on the durability or MK or even RW for that matter.

Main list....wow, Duigan gone, chance of retirement for Judd and Waite. Carrazzo is contracted next year, so can't be
"written off", would have to retire if his body is not coping. Watson is contracted and I would be amazed if not still required.
Bootsma is contracted, so needs a trade if he is not going to buy in. Lucas looks in jeopardy. Jeffy may be under pressure, but
his best is brilliant, can go missing, although recent performance "clouded" with personal issues. Are we forced in to premature decisions on McInnes or Temay? Army is contracted. Bell still on the up. Casboult has done enough and has a shortage of
competition. Ellard, White, Rowe all building a case to stick around. Where does Robbo sit? His best is irrestistible, his worst...................

INTRIGUING

 

[JuddsABlue]

Was going to do a main thread but figured it would just be moved here, but I think its interesting to get some discussion going on what we can offer GWS, if they feel like moving on one of their forwards at the end of the year

Henderson - Hendersons output is still pretty hot and cold. We are playing him as a forward, despite him probably being his best down back. He could be sold to GWS as the answer to their lack of key position defenders, and I think it raises his trade value quite a bit higher. Is he really the long term answer for us up forward? I certainly wonder.
Kruezer - I'm in the camp that, as a team, we can move on without Kruezer. The only reason we would trade him is dependent on his trade value, but if that still holds some currency I'd be happy to put him up. Hes not a better ruck than Warnock, hes not a better forward than Waite or Henderson, hes not a betted defender than Jammo, White or Rowe. Where does he fit? Its awkward, and its a tough call, but we are saying we need to make tough calls and moving on blokes like Lucas isnt exactly that.
Watson - Again, can be sold as a defender they need. We dont need him, lets be honest. White and Rowe are coming along fine, I dont see the point in Watson clogging up the twos.
Garlett - Do we need him? Hes a great deal maker. I love him in the side, but with Menzel coming along like he is and Yarran as well, is Garlett crucial to our team going forward? If it means landing a big forward, I'm happy to ship him off.
Touhy - Someone out there might like him, could be used as a cog to get a deal moving

IMO, when we talk about tough calls, these are the people in the firing line. If we want to go soft and cull the fat around the edges like Ellard, Lucas and co, we arent going anywhere. We are just refreshing our worst 6. If we want to land a big forward, these are the players that'll get the deal done.

If we dont, we move on with them, which I'm sure we are all happy with.

 

[The Bighouse]

Interesting, JAB. Think that may be a little too drastic for the CFC though Kreuzer is the one without a position ATM & Garlett is not performing or showing much desperation (nor Hendo or Zach currently).

 

[F_therest]

Was going to do a main thread but figured it would just be moved here, but I think its interesting to get some discussion going on what we can offer GWS, if they feel like moving on one of their forwards at the end of the year

Henderson - Hendersons output is still pretty hot and cold. We are playing him as a forward, despite him probably being his best down back. He could be sold to GWS as the answer to their lack of key position defenders, and I think it raises his trade value quite a bit higher. Is he really the long term answer for us up forward? I certainly wonder.
Kruezer - I'm in the camp that, as a team, we can move on without Kruezer. The only reason we would trade him is dependent on his trade value, but if that still holds some currency I'd be happy to put him up. Hes not a better ruck than Warnock, hes not a better forward than Waite or Henderson, hes not a betted defender than Jammo, White or Rowe. Where does he fit? Its awkward, and its a tough call, but we are saying we need to make tough calls and moving on blokes like Lucas isnt exactly that.
Watson - Again, can be sold as a defender they need. We dont need him, lets be honest. White and Rowe are coming along fine, I dont see the point in Watson clogging up the twos.
Garlett - Do we need him? Hes a great deal maker. I love him in the side, but with Menzel coming along like he is and Yarran as well, is Garlett crucial to our team going forward? If it means landing a big forward, I'm happy to ship him off.
Touhy - Someone out there might like him, could be used as a cog to get a deal moving

IMO, when we talk about tough calls, these are the people in the firing line. If we want to go soft and cull the fat around the edges like Ellard, Lucas and co, we arent going anywhere. We are just refreshing our worst 6. If we want to land a big forward, these are the players that'll get the deal done.

If we dont, we move on with them, which I'm sure we are all happy with.

Firstly, i don't see how so many ppl still don't rate Ellard at all and thinks he should be cut. He has definitely got a role to play for now at least. Can mark, good shot for goal and has some 'ticker'.

The idea of trading Henderson to me is ridiculous. Yes he's had a lean patch the last 4-5 games but so what? He's still so young...so he's gone from being our key forward saviour only last year to trade bait after a few quiet games? Every key forward, including the guns, have quiet patches. Buddy, Cloke, Pav, Riewoldts, Kennedy...have all gone through quiet patches just give him time. It took Roughead and Hawkins several years in the system to start producing like they are now. Plus the fact that he has the ability to be switched to defence is a plus. Malthouse keeps going on about flexibility and players playing different roles. Not going anywhere. Besides, don't forget that Patton and Boyd are completely unknown quantities at AFL level still and no guarantee they'll be any better than Hendo, and don't seem to play any other positions really. I know Patton sometimes plays loose man in defence for GWS but that doesnt really count.

Watson is still really young and yes we do still need him. The few times he has been able to string some games together like middle of last year he was starting to play well. Just needs a run of games..unfortunately for him Rowe and White are playing really well but thats good for the team. You say 'White and rowe doing just fine' as if you only need 3 tall key defenders on your entire list...obv you need backup for when injuries/loss of form occurs.

Unfortunately Garlett is a bit inconsistent as his best is brilliant...still hoping we can turn him around because then he'll be a big asset...but if not then i would be open to trading him. Tuohy out of form but worth sticking with. Not sure if GWS would value him that highly anyway for what they need.

I agree with you that i would be open to trading Kreuzer. Unfortunately injuries and the emergence of Warnock has made him expendable. He also hasn't come on as a forward as much as we all thought he would in his first year.

 

[steveo898]

Kreuz & Jeffy possible trade bait but doubt we would get what they could potentially deliver for us if we keep them through this rough patch of there careers (Form/Injury).

Hells no to Henderson! And I honestly don't think this would even be considered as an option by the club.

Touhy would not get much for trade value & the guy has shown what he's capable of plus he is still learning his craft with more development left in him, Keep.

 

[JuddsABlue]

The idea of trading Henderson to me is ridiculous. Yes he's had a lean patch the last 4-5 games but so what? He's still so young...so he's gone from being our key forward saviour only last year to trade bait after a few quiet games? Every key forward, including the guns, have quiet patches. Buddy, Cloke, Pav, Riewoldts, Kennedy...have all gone through quiet patches just give him time. It took Roughead and Hawkins several years in the system to start producing like they are now. Plus the fact that he has the ability to be switched to defence is a plus. Malthouse keeps going on about flexibility and players playing different roles. Not going anywhere. Besides, don't forget that Patton and Boyd are completely unknown quantities at AFL level still and no guarantee they'll be any better than Hendo, and don't seem to play any other positions really. I know Patton sometimes plays loose man in defence for GWS but that doesnt really count.

Where do we put Hendersons base formline though? I think too many Carlton people (and this is the main reason IMO we have been told we overestimate our list) see a player play out of their skin for a game or two and set the standard there, when in reality thats not where its at. All players can come out and dominate a game, have everything go well etc, and as a supporter base I feel we are the easiest to get sucked into it.

Henderson great games have been very good, but still nothing like what we should expect of a top 5 forward in the league. And the rest of his games are quite poor. Hes an alright player with potential, but we arent going to trade out bottom 6 players to bring in a guy that GWS are willing to give up.

I think Henderson has the perfect balance of offer and promise, that wont have that much of a negative effect on our setup or W/L ratio. What we can expect of Henderson, and what we can expect from Patton, careerwise, are miles apart imo

Henderson can and probably will be a servicable forward, and has a chance of becoming a really good forward in time, but imo so does Patton and his ceiling is much higher, and his base formline is higher as well. I think we'd be silly not to create a trade involving henderson + others to get Patton.

Not that Patton may even be offered to trade, but GWS have some great talent and Henderson can be pitched as a must have player for them

 

[BM123]

Trading Hendo would be poor list management on so many levels!

Why would we trade someone who is arguable our best KPP who can play A-grade football up forward and down back for a younger, unproven KPP?

Would be a massive back wards step.

 

[JuddsABlue]

Trading Hendo would be poor list management on so many levels!

Why would we trade someone who is arguable our best KPP who can play A-grade football up forward and down back for a younger, unproven KPP?

Would be a massive back wards step.

Just because hes our best KPP doesnt mean hes a KPP to build a team around

Whether his best football is A grade football is another debate, and even if it is, he still doesnt produce it anywhere near consistantly. Henderson is far from proven

Half back half forward doesnt work. We cant build a forward line around him, then on teams with tough forward lines, move him down back. It destroys the forward structure. We need a forward, a 24/7 forward. Our best forward needs to be there all the time. Look at the best teams in the comp and their KPF and how many of them go back? None of them. Its a phallacy. We need to rate him on his forward ability and thats it

Is he a better forward than Patton? I dont think hes a better forward than Patton right now. I think Patton in our side over Henderson tomorrow would produce better results for us. It'll also be better long term

When saying "its a backwards step", we have to ask is the step we are currently taking the right one. Is Henderson a premiership winning KPF?

I'd feel better about building a team around Patton than Henderson. Its no knock on him, but Patton is a gun and Hendersons output has been good at best

I dont want this to turn into me knocking Henderson, I love the kid and think he has a lot to offer, but I think Patton has more to offer and when we talk about making big calls at the end of the year, this could be one of them.

 

[BM123]

Just because hes our best KPP doesnt mean hes a KPP to build a team around

Whether his best football is A grade football is another debate, and even if it is, he still doesnt produce it anywhere near consistantly. Henderson is far from proven

Half back half forward doesnt work. We cant build a forward line around him, then on teams with tough forward lines, move him down back. It destroys the forward structure. We need a forward, a 24/7 forward. Our best forward needs to be there all the time. Look at the best teams in the comp and their KPF and how many of them go back? None of them. Its a phallacy. We need to rate him on his forward ability and thats it

Is he a better forward than Patton? I dont think hes a better forward than Patton right now. I think Patton in our side over Henderson tomorrow would produce better results for us. It'll also be better long term

When saying "its a backwards step", we have to ask is the step we are currently taking the right one. Is Henderson a premiership winning KPF?

I'd feel better about building a team around Patton than Henderson. Its no knock on him, but Patton is a gun and Hendersons output has been good at best

I dont want this to turn into me knocking Henderson, I love the kid and think he has a lot to offer, but I think Patton has more to offer and when we talk about making big calls at the end of the year, this could be one of them.

Uh what? Did you watch the 2013 season at all?

Do remember that Patton has had two knee surgeries done in recent times and his current form is very poor. Hendo was killing it for awhile there and it's no surprise that he is in a lean patch when you look at our delivery to our KPF's against a side with quality KPD's in Adelaide. Hendo's more then capable of beating the best KPF's and KPD's when he is on.

 

[Jeremias]

I see the ridiculous suggestions that we should get Patton at any cost have continued post-draft.

If we were to trade Henderson for Patton, no, Henderson for just about anyone in the league - there'd be a riot and rightly so.

We have very few players who are untradeable. Henderson is one of them.

 

[Cringle]

What the **** is the point of trading Henderson for Patton?

 

[FoeverBlues]

What the **** is the point of trading Henderson for Patton?

so we can say we did a trade....

Hendo is playing injured but is a very good, reliable swing KP but what has Patton done so far to justify a better improvement over Hendo. We trade to improve our list, no?

 

[gab213]

What the **** is the point of trading Henderson for Patton?

There really is none and it wouldn't ever happen.

 

[bmaurizio]

Kurtz & Jeffy are the very difficult ones. Both have not contributed much to the team and yet are very special footballers, in the right line up would they offer A grader value no doubt.
Combined their value should easily land us that elusive skilled , mobile good kicking big forward youngster and something more . The big changes are coming and Mick may just go for it, whilst the currency is still reasonable for them both.
Ciao

 

[LordLucifer]

Was going to do a main thread but figured it would just be moved here, but I think its interesting to get some discussion going on what we can offer GWS, if they feel like moving on one of their forwards at the end of the year

Henderson - Hendersons output is still pretty hot and cold. We are playing him as a forward, despite him probably being his best down back. He could be sold to GWS as the answer to their lack of key position defenders, and I think it raises his trade value quite a bit higher. Is he really the long term answer for us up forward? I certainly wonder.
Kruezer - I'm in the camp that, as a team, we can move on without Kruezer. The only reason we would trade him is dependent on his trade value, but if that still holds some currency I'd be happy to put him up. Hes not a better ruck than Warnock, hes not a better forward than Waite or Henderson, hes not a betted defender than Jammo, White or Rowe. Where does he fit? Its awkward, and its a tough call, but we are saying we need to make tough calls and moving on blokes like Lucas isnt exactly that.
Watson - Again, can be sold as a defender they need. We dont need him, lets be honest. White and Rowe are coming along fine, I dont see the point in Watson clogging up the twos.
Garlett - Do we need him? Hes a great deal maker. I love him in the side, but with Menzel coming along like he is and Yarran as well, is Garlett crucial to our team going forward? If it means landing a big forward, I'm happy to ship him off.
Touhy - Someone out there might like him, could be used as a cog to get a deal moving

IMO, when we talk about tough calls, these are the people in the firing line. If we want to go soft and cull the fat around the edges like Ellard, Lucas and co, we arent going anywhere. We are just refreshing our worst 6. If we want to land a big forward, these are the players that'll get the deal done.

If we dont, we move on with them, which I'm sure we are all happy with.

Agree with everything you have written there (apart from Henderson) in regards to the regeneration of our list.

There is a serious gulf between the top 4 teams and the middle tier clubs of which we are one of the many. The only way to bridge that gap is by being shrewd and ruthless at the trade table and the draft.

Hawthorn, Sydney & Geelong keep turning over the players to ensure they competitive as well as making the players hungry for a senior game. Whilst it isn't a pleasant thing to see players thrown around willy-nilly, unfortunately, this is the way football is done in the modern era.

 

[F_therest]

Agree with everything you have written there (apart from Henderson) in regards to the regeneration of our list.

There is a serious gulf between the top 4 teams and the middle tier clubs of which we are one of the many. The only way to bridge that gap is by being shrewd and ruthless at the trade table and the draft.

Hawthorn, Sydney & Geelong keep turning over the players to ensure they competitive as well as making the players hungry for a senior game. Whilst it isn't a pleasant thing to see players thrown around willy-nilly, unfortunately, this is the way football is done in the modern era.

Well yes that would help but our blokes applying themselves mentally and showing the grit and determination that the top teams do is probably just as/more important.

Those teams you mentioned do keep turning players over to remain competitive, but they are usually the older players as they don't want a whole bunch of old players retiring at once leaving massive holes in the team (Chapman and Pods immediately springs to mind). You don't see them necessarily trade young players with potential. What they are good at is making those kids who are a bit inconsistent and flaky into consistent performers. At the moment, they would probably be able to turn guys like Garlett, Lucas and to a lesser extent Tuohy into more consistent performers rather than trade them. So it is more a culture and development issue than trading philosophies IMO.

I would not trade Tuohy. Out of form right now but has done well the last few years.
Too early to trade Watson as well. Still young and has played well when he has been able to string some games together.
Garlett and Lucas I would consider trading as they are 2 of the most inconsistent performers on our list. Unfortunate as their best is brilliant. They also play positions that I think we can cover with other players so that makes them more expendable. Would like us to be able to turn them around though...you dont want to be trading 2 young guys with immense talent

 

[F_therest]

Where do we put Hendersons base formline though? I think too many Carlton people (and this is the main reason IMO we have been told we overestimate our list) see a player play out of their skin for a game or two and set the standard there, when in reality thats not where its at. All players can come out and dominate a game, have everything go well etc, and as a supporter base I feel we are the easiest to get sucked into it.

Henderson great games have been very good, but still nothing like what we should expect of a top 5 forward in the league. And the rest of his games are quite poor. Hes an alright player with potential, but we arent going to trade out bottom 6 players to bring in a guy that GWS are willing to give up.

I think Henderson has the perfect balance of offer and promise, that wont have that much of a negative effect on our setup or W/L ratio. What we can expect of Henderson, and what we can expect from Patton, careerwise, are miles apart imo

Henderson can and probably will be a servicable forward, and has a chance of becoming a really good forward in time, but imo so does Patton and his ceiling is much higher, and his base formline is higher as well. I think we'd be silly not to create a trade involving henderson + others to get Patton.

Not that Patton may even be offered to trade, but GWS have some great talent and Henderson can be pitched as a must have player for them

The thing is Hendo didn't just play 1 or 2 'out of his skin' games...over the last 2 seasons he's proven that he is an A grade footballer. Yes, mostly in defence but he spent quite a lot of last year up forward and did well over the course of the season. Had numerous games kicking 2, 3 and 4 goals and just watching the game he had footy smarts and a presence up forward.

Please explain further why you think what we can expect of Hendo vs Patton are 'miles apart' (in Pattons favour) and that his ceiling and formline is higher as well? Patton hasn't really done anything at AFL level yet. Hendo has actually had a big influence in numerous games...so how is Pattons ceiling and in particular formline higher?

I have seen some other people respond and all agree that Hendo is one of our 'untouchables' and that trading him would be just plain outrageous and stupid. I think your logic is sound, except your perception of Hendo's output and potential is far lower than the rest of us. And no, I do not think we are all being one-eyed Carlton supporters, he genuinely has the capability to be a star...he's just down on form right now.

 

[I bleed Blue]

Trade Hendo? What am I reading right now?

Hendo is the most important player on our list. Untouchable.

 

[Sector 7G]

Given we are 2 already KPP short on our list at the moment I would be very surprised if we moved Watson on given Waite and Jamo are both injury prone.

 

[Azul]

We'd only get a 4th round pick for Watson. But if the coach doesn't rate him, that's a better return than delisting him at the end of next year for nothing.

 

[marleyblue]

We'd only get a 4th round pick for Watson. But if the coach doesn't rate him, that's a better return than delisting him at the end of next year for nothing.

Why would we get rid of Watson?? Do we have another 5 developing KPP's? Do 195cm backmen have no scope for development or improvement once they reach the age of 21? When was the last time Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney or Collingwood shipped out a quality developing tall in the first couple of seasons? Talls take time!!!

The amount of people on this board wanting to ship Watson off is unbelievable. He showed last year when given a block of games that he has the ability to play at the top level and looked like he was really going to kick on. He has elite kicking, was reading the ball well and was suprisingly composed under pressure. Unfortunately injuries got in the way and he now has to bide his time in the VFL until another opprtunity arises.

Is he a complete footballer - no, he clearly needs to work on his positioning and bodywork but by all accounts is showing strong leadership marshalling a young defence in the Northern Blues team. It wasn't that long ago that many were predicting Rowe and Buckley were gone, things can turn around quickly and VFL form isn't always a strong predictor for AFL form (especially when playing in a young, struggling team).

I don't know if Watson will make it but he has the tools and with further development and experience can develop into a solid defender with an elite, zone-breaking left leg. No use giving that up for a speculative draft pick...