List Mgmt. 2014: The List

[Azul]

Why would we get rid of Watson?? Do we have another 5 developing KPP's? Do 195cm backmen have no scope for development or improvement once they reach the age of 21? When was the last time Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney or Collingwood shipped out a quality developing tall in the first couple of seasons? Talls take time!!!

He's had 3.5 years on an AFL list and can't get a game, despite very little competition. Do we give him 4 years or 5 or 6? Remembering that Mitchell, McCarthy, Duigan and Laidler are all gone from the club. All have disappeared under Malthouse, despite being recruited in the same year as Watson.

At some point Malthouse has to make a call. 6 games out of a possible 30 under Mick's tenure...

What, other than blind faith, gives you hope that Watson will make it? Aside from his 'elite kicking', he's slow on a lead and has poor ground-level skills - both of which were exposed in round 1.

 

[LordLucifer]

Well yes that would help but our blokes applying themselves mentally and showing the grit and determination that the top teams do is probably just as/more important.

Those teams you mentioned do keep turning players over to remain competitive, but they are usually the older players as they don't want a whole bunch of old players retiring at once leaving massive holes in the team (Chapman and Pods immediately springs to mind). You don't see them necessarily trade young players with potential. What they are good at is making those kids who are a bit inconsistent and flaky into consistent performers.

1. Grit & determination is a huge ingredient, I agree with you there.
2. Those teams do turn over players, especially the older ones but we keep holding on to the younger ones in a misguided hope that they will make it when they rarely ever do. We have to learn to cut our losses quicker in the future.
3. Agreed about the other clubs having better development, we are shite and have been for ages.

The good clubs (ie. Hawthorn) are prepared to trade players to get the exact ingredient they need. Us on the other hand, are scared that if we give a player away, it may come home to bite us on the bum.

We also have this warped mentality that player X "is worth more to us than others", what a load of crap that ideology is. Either the player is of sound skill-level & attitude or he isn't.

Besides, if we cannot get a player up to a certain level, who cares what another club can achieve with them anyway ??

Get on the front foot and trade out the players (for those who more closely fit our needs) who are on the fringe or non-developers, to win a premiership you need a more complete list with depth and skill. We do not have that now and never will unless we change our attitude towards list management.

 

[LordLucifer]

He's had 3.5 years on an AFL list and can't get a game, despite very little competition. Do we give him 4 years or 5 or 6? Remembering that Mitchell, McCarthy, Duigan and Laidler are all gone from the club. All have disappeared under Malthouse, despite being recruited in the same year as Watson.

Good lad, good call and the right one too !!

If Watson cannot nail it by the end of the year (and I'm thinking it may not happen) then he has to go.

This next draft is chock full of KPP so why the heck would we persist with one who ain't going to make it with us ??

 

[LordLucifer]

Going to go on record as saying that the end of season list changes will not be as dramatic as most are expecting.
Unless we target a Free Agent or pull a top end trade from some where, I expect minimal delistings and some targeted drafting.
We have an excellent list of established and developing players.

You have to be joking ???

We are miles off the pace and Malthouse is not going to stop adjusting the list until he has exactly what is needed to win a flag. He has stated it quite clearly this season, there will be another cull and/or trade-out of players - end of story.

 

[LordLucifer]

What the **** is the point of trading Henderson for Patton?

There isn't one !!

If you could trade Robinson & Garlett for Patton then it would have some merit.

 

[Deep Blue]

Why would we get rid of Watson?? Do we have another 5 developing KPP's? Do 195cm backmen have no scope for development or improvement once they reach the age of 21? When was the last time Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney or Collingwood shipped out a quality developing tall in the first couple of seasons? Talls take time!!!

The amount of people on this board wanting to ship Watson off is unbelievable. He showed last year when given a block of games that he has the ability to play at the top level and looked like he was really going to kick on. He has elite kicking, was reading the ball well and was suprisingly composed under pressure. Unfortunately injuries got in the way and he now has to bide his time in the VFL until another opprtunity arises.

Is he a complete footballer - no, he clearly needs to work on his positioning and bodywork but by all accounts is showing strong leadership marshalling a young defence in the Northern Blues team. It wasn't that long ago that many were predicting Rowe and Buckley were gone, things can turn around quickly and VFL form isn't always a strong predictor for AFL form (especially when playing in a young, struggling team).

I don't know if Watson will make it but he has the tools and with further development and experience can develop into a solid defender with an elite, zone-breaking left leg. No use giving that up for a speculative draft pick...

I worry when I look at our KPPs - wouldn't be keen to move on any of our KPPs/Rucks unless we have ready-replacements coming in. Look at what we have (not incl. White who is not a genuine tall):

Waite - elite player when he's on song but injury prone and not part of our future beyond the next 1-2 years
Jamison - reliable backman, but has dodgy shoulders and has entered the last 1/4 of his useful life as a footballer
Rowe - has been good of late but is mature-age, not a youngster
Henderson - our stand-out tall but increasingly will carry a heavy load
Warnock - if he goes down we're stuffed
Casboult - can pinch-hit in the ruck as a bonus
Kreuzer - has really copped it injury-wise - if he returns and plays at a high-level on a fairly consistent basis then that should be seen purely as a (huge) bonus
Watson - still young and can develop further
Giles - not ready for a year or two
Wood - seems to only be insurance if Warnock breaks down (although has had some very good games with the NBs)

All things considered I'd give our talls 5-6/10 as a group. Just wish Mitchell and/or McCarthy had come on!

 

[HARKER]

Given what seems to have been a successful and specifically targetted trade period, it's likely we'll go down that path again.
May not score ourselves a key FA this year, but we wouldn't be doing bad to get what amounts to picks in the 30s to reel in players that are ready to add to the senior squad.

Don't think that Mick cares for superstars as much as he wants to build the squad with all the right and complementing attributes, although another Menzel wouldn't hurt.

 

[HARKER]

Good lad, good call and the right one too !!

If Watson cannot nail it by the end of the year (and I'm thinking it may not happen) then he has to go.

This next draft is chock full of KPP so why the heck would we persist with one who ain't going to make it with us ??

It would be crazy to let Watson go.

He may well get just one year but he's not going anywhere unless a huge change of attitude comes about or we get an offer we can't refuse...

 

[marleyblue]

He's had 3.5 years on an AFL list and can't get a game, despite very little competition. Do we give him 4 years or 5 or 6? Remembering that Mitchell, McCarthy, Duigan and Laidler are all gone from the club. All have disappeared under Malthouse, despite being recruited in the same year as Watson.

At some point Malthouse has to make a call. 6 games out of a possible 30 under Mick's tenure...


What, other than blind faith, gives you hope that Watson will make it? Aside from his 'elite kicking', he's slow on a lead and has poor ground-level skills - both of which were exposed in round 1.

He's had 3.5 years on an AFL list and can't get a game, despite very little competition. Do we give him 4 years or 5 or 6? Remembering that Mitchell, McCarthy, Duigan and Laidler are all gone from the club. All have disappeared under Malthouse, despite being recruited in the same year as Watson.Ever heard the one about talls take time?

Watson is still 21 years old, was drafted as a big lump of a kid that needed a fair bit of work to get him to AFL shape. Last season he played a block of games at senior level and didn't look out of place, he'll get another opportunity and I hope he takes it with both hands.
Players develop at different speeds, take a look at Aaron Black form North - almost 2 years older than Watson, has played 30 games to Matthew's 17 and didn't break out until last year. The fact that Mitchell and McCarthy didn't make the cut is irrelevant to Watson's progression.

At some point Malthouse has to make a call. 6 games out of a possible 30 under Mick's tenure...

I reckon the Club and Malthouse made a call last year when they re-signed Watson till the end of next season. Seriously doubt they'll move him on this year when we have no other defensive propsects apart from Giles on the list.
Maybe Mick has him in the reserves to develop and work on some of the deficiencies you noted. He was playing good football at the end of 2013 but it took injuries to others to provide the opportunity. Similiary he's now being kept out of the seniors as Rowe and White have grabbed their opportunity.

What, other than blind faith, gives you hope that Watson will make it? Aside from his 'elite kicking', he's slow on a lead and has poor ground-level skills - both of which were exposed in round 1.

Apart from your blind negativity, why won't he make it? Watson is an elite kick, is a great size and reads the ball well. Despite general opinion to the contrary, Watson is not slow - he ran a 2.98 for the 20m sprint at draft camp while in poor condition - he was the heaviest player at draft camp with the worst skin folds. Also I disagree that he has poor ground level skills, he suprised during his senior stint last season and in fact his composure and ability at ground level was good for a guy of his size. Has plenty to work on but that's what development is all about.

 

[Buckley2Menzel]

What is the contract situation with Watson? If his deal runs out next season I can see him being put on the trade table to see his value on the market, but can't see us getting anything worth his value in return. If we can package him and Lucas or Jeffy for an immediate upgrade in our tall stocks, then draft another KPP that would be good, but can't see that happening. I am happy to let Watson develop for a while longer.

 

[Coona Blues]

You have to be joking ???

We are miles off the pace and Malthouse is not going to stop adjusting the list until he has exactly what is needed to win a flag. He has stated it quite clearly this season, there will be another cull and/or trade-out of players - end of story.

Such aggression you display. Let's attack the list and treat Malthouse as the Messiah. Aggression displayed at a press conference, on the training track or in a supporter's(well supposedly) forum means sweet FA.

I draw your attention to Port Adelaide circa 2012. Their future looked forlorn. They drafted well, and traded well for some role players, no stars. They got the list fit through good old fashioned hard work in the dunes (before an OS jaunt this year). They play an uncompromising, aesthetically pleasing (for player and fan) brand of football. They take the game on, and they enjoy the game they grew up loving.

You can argue the process is not complete, but MM is stripping away the game our boys love. I understand his goal of producing
"buy in" and weeding out the soft or lazy. I have never believed in taking the long option if there is a shorter route available. If the players are not enjoying themselves, most will under achieve. If they are confused, or dare I say, threatened, they will become hesitant, disjointed and look for safe options. If they are second guessing, skill errors will happen. Does this sound familiar?

Malthouse has been a good coach, and brings many needed qualities to our club. These qualities, plus a other desirables are not
unique to Michael Malthouse. It is fair to say our board, or whoever was calling the shots, went the conservative option. Like it or not, the game is changing more than MM is prepared to concede. Some values stay the same, others are far more "fluid". I fear the Malthouse way will erode the often flaky Ratten game style, in favour of a more structured, consistent plan, with a lower ceiling.

The fact is our list over the past few years has produced some spectacular highs, often against Malthouse's Magpies. His well drilled team was susceptible to our run and gun ways, his game plan could be brought undone by a team prepared to take the game on. MM supporters allude to his taking Collingwood to a level where they could arguably have been the dominant home and away team for 4 years or more. They won 1 flag only during that period. He is easy to coach against for an astute coach with a good list.

We have an excellent list of good quality players, a great many of whom would play significant roles on any current AFL list. The kids we have brought in recently have so much more real promise than the project players from the Ratten era.
We are missing a couple of major pieces of the puzzle. (A Judd replacement, a KPF, and a fit and firing M.Kreuzer) An annual decimation of the list in the hope we can improve it is crazy. The whole competition has been compromised for 4 years with the expansion teams. All drafting has an element of doubt.

We have plenty of players of known quality and some highly promising kids. Playing Russian Roulette with developing players or dumping proven warriors prematurely is not the way to go. MM is many things, but not an idiot, can't see more than 6/7 changes.

By all means weed out the underperformers and definitely those who under subscribe in the effort stakes. Do not damage their spirit and compromise their spirit by shackling them and have them doubting themselves and each other.

Other than Duigan, being already gone, I would only concede Lucas, Garlett and Bootsma(contracted) to have their bona fides seriously questioned at this stage(that is not a categoric - sack them). Our "lesser" warrior types have all put up their hands, and the "kids" have not even gone close to exhausting their credits (Watson included)

I have no major problem trading a player or 2 who have apparent replacements already on the list or who can be traded in or attracted through free agency.

We do have a glut of second tier or developing players. Our "silk" Murphy, Gibbs and Yarran are more "taggable" than some of their peers. This does not make them expendable, they need more protection, improved game plan and/or more top end talent to relieve the pressure.

 

[Azul]

Watson is not slow - he ran a 2.98 for the 20m sprint at draft camp while in poor condition

Raw speed means nothing. I claimed he was slow on a lead. When an opponent jumps out of the blocks and Watson is forced to punch from behind, he's at a natural disadvantage. We saw that in round 1. I haven't seen the VFL except the TV game against Coburg - he got caught behind early and thus conceded a couple of obvious free kicks and then went off injured.

his composure and ability at ground level was good for a guy of his size.

Relative to whom? Which of his teammates would he beat in a ground level contest? Warnock - yes. Rowe - maybe. Kreuzer, Jamo, Hendo, Waite, Everitt - doubtful. Casboult would bump him off the contest no problem. Bootsma, White and Walker would burn him for pace.

Call me blindly negative but I can't see him nudging anyone out of the current 22 for the remainder of the season. If we receive a trade offer then it's probably best for both club and player. I'm sorry if I don't share your optimism that his 5th year on the list will be any different.

 

[HARKER]

Raw speed means nothing. I claimed he was slow on a lead. When an opponent jumps out of the blocks and Watson is forced to punch from behind, he's at a natural disadvantage. We saw that in round 1. I haven't seen the VFL except the TV game against Coburg - he got caught behind early and thus conceded a couple of obvious free kicks and then went off injured.

Call me blindly negative but I can't see him nudging anyone out of the current 22 for the remainder of the season. If we receive a trade offer then it's probably best for both club and player. I'm sorry if I don't share your optimism that his 5th year on the list will be any different.

We have other types, that we could afford to lose.
I don't think we're in a desperate state where we need to move Watson on.

Unfortunately some only get to only see the vision in the one or two VFL games that come our way via free to air, and unfortunately Watson somehow manages not to shine in those games.

He's been terrific by far and large over the course of the last year and a half by way of effort, aggression, smarts and direction.................but someone has seen one VFL game on TV and they know better.

I can see us moving on at least half a dozen before we even consider Watson and given we haven't many KPP, why would we do so now anyway?

 

[Azul]

Well Harks, I'll defer to your superior judgement and VFL watching.

Is he ready to step up to the tempo of AFL or is he just a good VFL player? What attributes of Watson's game would see him push White and Rowe out of the senior side?

 

[HARKER]

Well Harks, I'll defer to your superior judgement and VFL watching.

Is he ready to step up to the tempo of AFL or is he just a good VFL player? What attributes of Watson's game would see him push White and Rowe out of the senior side?

Nothing superior at all Azul.

We could have easily got rid of White, Rowe and Ellard last year but didn't.
Skill is most important but character has a lot to do with how Malthouse builds his teams and Watson........believe it or not.......is playing general very well right now.

That may well not be enough alone to save him but there's been some great progress in him, this year to date...........I guarantee you.
If that doesn't show up where it counts then who knows but right now, I wouldn't be talking about moving Watson on, unless as I said............we get an offer to good to refuse.

 

[BM123]

Speaking of KPP's I must say that Rowe's and White's progress so far has been a revelation this year.

 

[marleyblue]

Call me blindly negative but I can't see him nudging anyone out of the current 22 for the remainder of the season. If we receive a trade offer then it's probably best for both club and player. I'm sorry if I don't share your optimism that his 5th year on the list will be any different.

That's the thing with injury - it can hit unexpectedly and offer opportunity. Go back and look at the 'Rowe to CHB' threads and check the opinions of most posters on the likelihood of that working. Form is another variable - Rowe and White may be playing great football now but form fluctuates.

I don't believe a trade that takes a developing 21yr KPP off the list is in the club's best interests unless it is for a superior KPP.

Before you write off his 5th season maybe we can wait till at least halfway through his 4th season before writing them both off...

 

[HARKER]

Speaking of KPP's I must say that Rowe's and White's progress so far has been a revelation this year.

Rowe was played at CHB/FB on several occasions last year and it was clear that that was where he was going to find a home...............Same as it was for Dylan Buckley.
Had have we pushed either of those guys to succeed forward, we could easily be talking about their necks being on the chopping block.

White could easily be usurped by McInnes. Could easily have been already had have McInnes clicked into form a little earlier but again, opportunity is king.

I feel that there are several that have a line through them already but Watson isn't one of them.

 

[etsal1]

Speaking of KPP's I must say that Rowe's and White's progress so far has been a revelation this year.

I've always liked Whitey, but never thought he could be this dependable.

And Rowe - well I agree, what a freaking revelation. I wanted him gone after the Melbourne game - thank god I have no say in things

 

[Azul]

there's been some great progress in him, this year to date...........I guarantee you.
If that doesn't show up where it counts then who knows but right now, I wouldn't be talking about moving Watson on, unless as I said............we get an offer to good to refuse.

Fair enough. From the limited vision I've seen, he's an honest plodder with a good heart but for the reasons outlined above (which Marley disputes), I can't seen him dominating an AFL opponent.

He would only flourish if given an extended opportunity at the next level. Surely 50+ VFL games is enough of an apprenticeship? If Malthouse isn't prepared to offer him game time then perhaps another coach might. At the same time, we have almost the worst KPP depth in the league already.

 

[Jeremias]

Unfortunately the video quality is poor, but this sums up some Carlton supporters to a tee.


"Now where's my Matthew Watson?"
Hold on...you have a choice. You can have Matthew Watson, or you can have this shiny new draft pick.
"What, are you crazy? We'll take Matthew Watson".
"Not so fast. Matthew Watson is Matthew Watson...but a draft pick could be anything. It could even be Matthew Watson".

 

[Azul]

Still waiting for Watson's break-out year, Jeremias. Will it be late 2014? 2015? 2016? Or perhaps never...

Or maybe our development is such that he'll bob up for the Western Bulldogs next year and contribute from day 1. I certainly wouldn't begrudge him a fresh start at a new club, just as I clapped each of Eddie Betts' goals yesterday and found myself smiling whenever Jacobs dished off a handball.

 

[BM123]

Rowe was played at CHB/FB on several occasions last year and it was clear that that was where he was going to find a home...............Same as it was for Dylan Buckley.
Had have we pushed either of those guys to succeed forward, we could easily be talking about their necks being on the chopping block.

White could easily be usurped by McInnes. Could easily have been already had have McInnes clicked into form a little earlier but again, opportunity is king.

I feel that there are several that have a line through them already but Watson isn't one of them.

I don't think Mcinnes is developed enough to handle blokes like Taylor Walker just yet though. I'm fairly confident that he will make it with us though.

My personal list of players up for delistment and trade would be.

Delist: Duigan, Scotland

Trade: Robinson, Garlett, Watson, Bootsma, Lucas, Walker and maybe Tuohy if we get a good enough offer for him.

With our game style I think anyone who has a poor inside game and/or has poor disposal is going to struggle badly especially in this current era where teams punish you for turnovers or missed tackles.

I'd like us to be active in this trading period and draft for all sorts of our reason.

In order of priorities for our list I would go

1. Quality KPP
2. Midfield depth. .
3. HBF's. Quality ball users who can also defend well.
4. Ruck depth.

 

[BM123]

Unfortunately the video quality is poor, but this sums up some Carlton supporters to a tee.


"Now where's my Matthew Watson?"
Hold on...you have a choice. You can have Matthew Watson, or you can have this shiny new draft pick.
"What, are you crazy? We'll take Matthew Watson".
"Not so fast. Matthew Watson is Matthew Watson...but a draft pick could be anything. It could even be Matthew Watson".

Remember that Watson was taken in a compromised draft.

Draft picks are overrated though and I would hope that we can trade for players already in the game who are known quantities and would improve our side in the long term.

 

[BM123]

Still waiting for Watson's break-out year, Jeremias. Will it be late 2014? 2015? 2016? Or perhaps never...

Or maybe our development is such that he'll bob up for the Western Bulldogs next year and contribute from day 1. I certainly wouldn't begrudge him a fresh start at a new club, just as I clapped each of Eddie Betts' goals yesterday and found myself smiling whenever Jacobs dished off a handball.

It's ironic that the two best players for Adelaide yesterday came directly from Carlton.