Analysis 2016 List Management Discussion

[Funk]

Gibbs for Brad Crouch AND a 2nd rounder?

We'd struggle to get Crouch in a straight swap with Gibbs and we'd likely be the ones throwing in a draft pick sweetener. Probably a 2nd/3rd. I think you're heavily underestimating the quality of talent there.

I'd love it to happen, but it won't.

Very pleased you are not our list manager.

Crouch is injury prone and only played 10 games this year.

 

[Funk]

He's not shown it much yet due to a few injuries and subsequent management by the Crows, but he is a freak athlete. He was originally viewed to slot straight into Dangerfields spot in the midfield and they wouldn't lose much. Picked up an early injury so that didn't happen. But shows the regard the crows have in him. Tbf the last few weeks he has started to play the quality they were hoping for at the start of the season.

He has played plenty of SANFL games when not considered best 22

 

[Coops93]

Very pleased you are not our list manager.

Crouch is injury prone and only played 10 games this year.

So is O'Maera but GCs asking price is 2 first rounders according to reports. And he's not even played 1 game this year.

He has played plenty of SANFL games when not considered best 22

Only to try and get fitness back into him after his injuries. No proper pre-season and a broken up year. Also, there is allot more byes in the sanfl so is much harder to get continuity coming back from injury. He's always been in the plans for starting 22.

He's played every game since rd 14 and been very good. Only getting less than 26 possessions once, and that's the only loss Adelaide have had since he's been in the team. Shows the impact he's having.

 

[Funk]

So is O'Maera but GCs asking price is 2 first rounders according to reports. And he's not even played 1 game this year.



Only to try and get fitness back into him after his injuries. No proper pre-season and a broken up year. Also, there is allot more byes in the sanfl so is much harder to get continuity coming back from injury. He's always been in the plans for starting 22.

He's played every game since rd 14 and been very good. Only getting less than 26 possessions once, and that's the only loss Adelaide have had since he's been in the team. Shows the impact he's having.

And GC can **** off with their 2 first rounders.

The idea of improving our list is to consistently get more in deals than we give up.

Eg Henderson for pick 8, Bell for pick 22, Yarran for pick 19 and the Menzel/GWS deal.

Gibbs and a 2nd round for Crouch?

Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Coops93]

And GC can **** off with their 2 first rounders.

Yes they can. Not saying it's reasonable, just that was the asking price.

But surely no one is going to pay that... surely





Although Hawthorn probably will... pick 15/16/17/18 (depending where they finish) this year, and next years first. They wouldn't be losing much...... God damn hawks.... Yet again they get a big fish in the modern era of 'equalisation'

 

[Malifice]

Hawthorn are on top of the ladder because they're a fantastic organization from top to bottom and we are not.. you're simplifying the salient

Putting aside culture/ game plan/ off field stability (all very important dont get me wrong, and something thats improved markedly with us this year) they obtained 4 flags largely on the back of one trade.

Trade period 2001. They made the call to trade club favorite Trent Croad and Luke McPharlin to Fremantle. In exchange they got picks 1 and 36.

They used those picks on Luke Hodge and Sam Mitchell. They got 2 elite players (2 x Norm Smiths, 6 x AA, 6 x Best and Fairests between them) to tip into a side that would go on to win 4 flags.

You can say what you want about the 2004 draft of Buddy and Roughy, and the impact of Rioli and Burgoyne, but that trade in 2001 was the difference in the Hawks winning those flags.

 

[mattymac]

Speculating that Gibbs won't be around in 5 years yet in the same breath asserting Crouch will be in 10 is nothing more than biased rubbish. Just fluff to try devalue one player and hype up another.

One of these players has displayed terrific durability throughout his career and prior to last year had barely missed a game since debuting. The other is Brad Crouch.

Wow you're pretty sensitive about this stuff. Relax guy. 99% chance of it not happening anyway

 

[mattymac]

If they both wanna go home, a trade of the two makes sense for both clubs. But im still hearing the Hawks have crouch stitched up.

Along with O'Meara, Prestia and Mitchell

 

[Jeremias]

Wow you're pretty sensitive about this stuff. Relax guy. 99% chance of it not happening anyway

Not sensitive at all, just pointing out there's very little basis for assuming Gibbs won't last beyond another 2-3 years as you originally stated.

 

[Soapy V]

BTW - those continually whinging about our poor trading history need to consider 2 points;
1) Chris Yarran - 0 games in 2016
2) Troy Menzel - 0 games in 2016

both since sos has been in charge.

 

[DangerousD]

Hodge was a priority pick, you only get those from finishing low and getting very few wins. Had nothing to do with trading ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_AFL_draft

Haven't been bothered to look up the other two.

Luke hodge was picked up with pick 1 which came from Fremantle for Croad and I think McPharlin, nothing to do with a priority pick.

 

[Soapy V]

Why is it a stretch to suggest Gibbs will be playing at 32?

he will be but what will his output be?

 

[lzimmer]

Can anyone tell me, Has Gibbs ever played a game in the VFL? Just out of interest.

 

[Coops93]

he will be but what will his output be?

Pretty good. He doesn't really need athleticism for the way he plays. He's more a finisher, who uses his skill and decision making rather than run out of packs or break through tackles. He's a guy who could play his best football in his 30s, given that's when we should be at our best and he will be able to play the finisher role.

 

[La Dispute]

Hawthorn are on top of the ladder because they're a fantastic organization from top to bottom and we are not.. you're simplifying the salient

Spot on. Comparing us to North or Richmond is really lazy.

North had an ok-decent list and decided to bypass developing younger players in the seniors introduce mature agers from other clubs.

Richmond have drafted terribly, traded terribly and have fundamental issues developing players and structuring a list conducive to winning finals.

We're going down a very different route.

 

[LordLucifer]

He has played plenty of SANFL games when not considered best 22

If he is playing a lot of SANFL games, doesn't that make you rethink whether he is worth chasing ??

 

[Coops93]

If he is playing a lot of SANFL games, doesn't that make you rethink whether he is worth chasing ??

He isn't though. That was only when returning from injury. He's played every game for the Crows since rd 14.

 

[Funk]

If he is playing a lot of SANFL games, doesn't that make you rethink whether he is worth chasing ??

For pick in late 20's - yes. I.e. Everitt or Levi out for the required pick.

Then if a mature KPF is required get one through free agency.

Keep our draft picks.

 

[Jeremias]

he will be but what will his output be?

I think by then we'll see him spend less time in the midfield and more on a flank - IMO a more natural position for him - so I'd be backing him in to still be playing to a very reasonable standard.

 

[juzza316]

For pick in late 20's - yes. I.e. Everitt or Levi out for the required pick.

Then if a mature KPF is required get one through free agency.

Keep our draft picks.

Are you saying you think we could get a pick for Everitt or Levi in the late 20's?

 

[BlueJet]

Very pleased you are not our list manager.

Crouch is injury prone and only played 10 games this year.

Their output is reasonably similar, it isn't a stretch to suggest that the Crows ask for Gibbs in exchange for Crouch.

 

[thylacine60]

please

 

[La Dispute]

Putting aside culture/ game plan/ off field stability (all very important dont get me wrong, and something thats improved markedly with us this year) they obtained 4 flags largely on the back of one trade.

Trade period 2001. They made the call to trade club favorite Trent Croad and Luke McPharlin to Fremantle. In exchange they got picks 1 and 36.

They used those picks on Luke Hodge and Sam Mitchell. They got 2 elite players (2 x Norm Smiths, 6 x AA, 6 x Best and Fairests between them) to tip into a side that would go on to win 4 flags.

You can say what you want about the 2004 draft of Buddy and Roughy, and the impact of Rioli and Burgoyne, but that trade in 2001 was the difference in the Hawks winning those flags.

I've enjoyed your contribution to the debate so far Malefic but this is one of the most simplistic, archaic and altogether deterministic ways of looking at it. You can't use a trade from 2001 (which had as much to do with Freo's incompetence as it did smart list management by Hawthorn) to highlight quality list building.

When Bolton came in, he wanted to not only reset the way we managed players, but a number of other attributes, including

-A high-performance culture
-A unified, focused and driven playing list
-Improvements in the football department and development of young players
-Constant and perpetual benchmarking

There are no doubt a number of areas we need to improve in, and our playing list is one of the biggest areas of concern, which is why trading a proven A-Grader we won't get reciprocal value for (immediate performance) is damaging. At this stage, shipping off a loyal, talented (elite), footy smart player would be detrimental to the group.

 

[La Dispute]

Trade Tuohy to Sydney for Mitchell.

Do you really think Sydney would take that?

I know we're on a footy forum and we can hypothesise and make imaginary trades but this is ludicrous af.

 

[ParapMarkets]

I can only hope.



Its not about getting a player as good as him (although that would be lovely). Its about getting a player better than Graham or Everitt (when Gibbs has already gone) during our premiership window 2020-2025.

Hes worth an extra good player during that window if we trade him now. If we dont, he adds nothing to that window.

You can't be serious! You will be happy for a player just better than Graham or Everitt for Gibbs?
The GWS list is chock full of players better than those two, that's why SOS is trying to pillage it as much as possible, as they just simply don't have the salary cap to pay them all. There are much simpler ways to get players better than Graham or Everitt than giving away one of your best players.

If, by some miracle, we can get a genuinely quality pick for Gibbs (like top 5), or if we can trade him to get a quality young player like Crouch then I am all for it (though I would be hesitant about trading for a player with a history of foot problems among other things). But a draft pick that is likely to not even be on an AFL list in 4 years time for one of our best players? Quality players are tough to find.

Our list is already at tipping point with a lack of quality, yes sacrifices need to made for the future, but it has been proven time and time again that teams that sit down the bottom of the ladder and accumulate draft picks struggle to get themselves into contention. We need the youngsters we draft to enjoy their footy, and to be able to play in a good system with some quality older players around them. We don't want to become GWS lite (GWS with about 1/6th of the high draft picks) languishing at the bottom of the ladder for eternity accumulating draft picks and trading off whatever players we can once they reach a certain age.

People always love draft picks because draft picks don't have flaws, it's not until we see the player that pick translates into that the flaws become evident.