List Mgmt. 2020 Draft and Trade Hypotheticals

[caesar88]

You are free to do that. I'm free to point out that one of the most respected coaches in the league probably has a reasonable grasp on he current state of the game.

Indeed he does.

So do seventeen other coaches. And assistant coaches. And players. And former players. And list management and recruiting staff. And conditioning staff.

If you took the opinions of every person who has first-hand, expert insight into the current state of the game, and combined them all, it would be a cluster**** of contradictions. So one of those many, many opinions being aired in isolation means diddly squat as far as I'm concerned.

Hence the chuckle. However it was still an interesting read that probably deserved a more nuanced response, so my bad there.

 

[zyzzbruh]

I just don't think this is the case. There are obviously two sides to every story. ET did not stuff up once. He did it twice or more. He was a recidovist. He has ingrained behviourable issues that affect himself and Sydney. He has issues that the Swans cannot expect to deal with in public over a long period of time. There are lots of implications for Sydney. There are also difficult decisions for ET and things he needs to deal with. Playing this out in public does nothing for either side. I expect Sydney will provide funding for ET to get help. Sydney does not need to be "dragged through the mud".

Then they should explain their side of the story. Until then everything you just said is an assumption.

 

[Bear31]

Then they should explain their side of the story. Until then everything you just said is an assumption.

There is an ongoing legal case. I don't expect the Swans nor ET to want media coverage to surround that. What would you want the Swans or ET to say that would not be detrimental to both parties?

 

[zyzzbruh]

I have no idea how you reached the conclusion that our handling of the Elijah Taylor incident was poor form.

From the perspective of us being a 'club' (ie a group of humans, friends, mates, brothers in arms, a footy family, whatever you wanna call it), it would've made no sense to stick by him. I'd read somewhere that some of the Swans boys had unfollowed him basically straight after news of his arrest broke, among them I believe were captains JPK & Parker. If the blokes he's sharing a locker-room and a footy field with find his actions irredeemable - which they absolutely are - then the administration at our club, who would have little-to-no interactions with him on a day-to-day basis have no obligation to try and repair that relationship.

And from the perspective of us being an 'organisation' (ie a professional corporation with people's livelihoods on the line depending on the success and functioning of said organisation), it would've made even less sense to stick by him. We have sponsors and fans and community initiatives that we rely on to sustain our place in the industry. To be seen as the business that continued to pay someone who has pled guilty to assault a six-figure salary would be terrible optics. But even from a moral perspective, we have thousands of fans who would be young children, boys especially, who need to see examples being set, such as the club they follow show there is ZERO place for violence.

Again, your whole post is an assumption. I'm not saying it may not be true but they need to come out and say that there's more to a story. You say brothers in arms etc then you say no point sticking by him. Contradiction.

In reply to the rest of your post, you just reiterate what I said in the post above. For a workplace to expect an 18 yr old player to reflect its values for all it's sponsors, fans etc with their own personal lives, directly means the club accept responsibility in developing and mentoring that player. If they think it's possible for every kid to come in and behave perfectly to the absolute dotted line, then they're plain dumb. It doesn't matter what the indescretion is, a kid of his age deserves a second chance if they accept to buy into what is expected from that point on. If he didn't accept those terms, say it. If they didn't give him the oppertunity, say it. If indeed they didn't give him that oppertunity then it's very clear they have tiptoed around the issue with political jargon otherwise why not just say it as is. They know they're wiping their hands clean and have come out with a diluted political statement in order to fly under the radar.

 

[zyzzbruh]

There is an ongoing legal case. I don't expect the Swans nor ET to want media coverage to surround that. What would you want the Swans or ET to say that would not be detrimental to both parties?

Stand him down till it runs it course then. They've made the decision based on something. Say what it is. Don't try to slide through with political jargon. They know they are avoiding their responsibilty here hence the diluted statement. Otherwise why not be straight forward.

 

[Bear31]

Again, your whole post is an assumption. I'm not saying it may not be true but they need to come out and say that there's more to a story. You say brothers in arms etc then you say no point sticking by him. Contradiction.

In reply to the rest of your post, you just reiterate what I said in the post above. For a workplace to expect an 18 yr old player to reflect its values for all it's sponsors, fans etc with their own personal lives, directly means the club accept responsibility in developing and mentoring that player. If they think it's possible for every kid to come in and behave perfectly to the absolute dotted line, then they're plain dumb. It doesn't matter what the indescretion is, a kid of his age deserves a second chance if they accept to buy into what is expected from that point on. If he didn't accept those terms, say it. If they didn't give him the oppertunity, say it. If indeed they didn't give him that oppertunity then it's very clear they have tiptoed around the issue with political jargon otherwise why not just say it as is. They know they're wiping their hands clean and have come out with a diluted political statement in order to fly under the radar.

I think a reasonable person would know what acceptable behavior was when you are 18 and entering the workforce. You don't have to be taught acceptable behaviors. That is what primary school and secondary school are designed for. Learning academically and learning socially. Most responsible organizations have codes of behavior as well. I expect the AFL would have endorsed a lot of educational programs for new recruits. I reckon it would be rammed down their throats.
What is it that you would have as the preferred outcome from this?

 

[caesar88]

Again, your whole post is an assumption. I'm not saying it may not be true but they need to come out and say that there's more to a story. You say brothers in arms etc then you say no point sticking by him. Contradiction.

In reply to the rest of your post, you just reiterate what I said in the post above. For a workplace to expect an 18 yr old player to reflect its values for all it's sponsors, fans etc with their own personal lives, directly means the club accept responsibility in developing and mentoring that player. If they think it's possible for every kid to come in and behave perfectly to the absolute dotted line, then they're plain dumb. It doesn't matter what the indescretion is, a kid of his age deserves a second chance if they accept to buy into what is expected from that point on. If he didn't accept those terms, say it. If they didn't give him the oppertunity, say it. If indeed they didn't give him that oppertunity then it's very clear they have tiptoed around the issue with political jargon otherwise why not just say it as is. They know they're wiping their hands clean and have come out with a diluted political statement in order to fly under the radar.

I was willing to hear you out until I got to the bolded.

There are indiscretions and then there are reprehensible, deplorable crimes.

This isn't Aliir sleeping in on game-day, or Lewis Taylor

28

Lewis Taylor

Age

29

Ht

174cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.6

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.1

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.9

3star

D

9.6

2star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.8

2star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.2

3star

CL

0.2

2star

D

12.6

4star

K

6.2

3star

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6.4

4star

M

2.0

3star

T

2.2

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1.2

4star

/Will Gould turning up to pre-season out of shape, or Papley needing his head pulled in on the field, or even Talia getting caught with a baggy. They are disciplinary/decision-making/attitude/commitment indiscretions that a club and corporation exactly like ours are well equipped and positioned to 'develop' and 'mentor' said players through.

We shouldn't have to develop and mentor a kid to stop him assaulting a woman, particularly when we have sponsors and a reputation to uphold in society in order to keep this club afloat.

That's a no-brainer. You might need to ask yourself why you think the club should even have to rationalise such a logical, moral decision.

 

[zyzzbruh]

I think a reasonable person would know what acceptable behavior was when you are 18 and entering the workforce. You don't have to be taught acceptable behaviors. That is what primary school and secondary school are designed for. Learning academically and learning socially. Most responsible organizations have codes of behavior as well. I expect the AFL would have endorsed a lot of educational programs for new recruits. I reckon it would be rammed down their throats.
What is it that you would have as the preferred outcome from this?

Again, the AFL is a very different workforce. There are alot of things people get away with in their personal lives within the standard workforce compared to the AFL. When was the last time your company found out let alone reprimanded you for something as simple as drink driving? The AFL demands a massive lifestyle change, it's a different ball game. It ain't a simple adjustment. I'm sure every club will be happy to accept it has a responsibilty developing all players not just the kids
, continually, not just a 1st year intro and thats it.

I would've expected the club to give him the chance to show remorse firstly, and buy back into what is expected of him at the club and win back the trust of his teammates. If he had succeeded after all this, it would be something for the club to be proud of.

 

[RobbieK]

I would've expected the club to give him the chance to show remorse firstly, and buy back into what is expected of him at the club and win back the trust of his teammates. If he had succeeded after all this, it would be something for the club to be proud of.

Back in September Harley said Taylor had failed to "abide by club directives on a number of occasions this year".

Taylor stood down by Swans after assault charge laid

The Swans have moved to distance themselves from the talented 19-year-old, who was charged with aggravated assault by WA police on Monday morning.

www.theage.com.au

So... I would say that he had multiple chances already and burnt through them.

 

[zyzzbruh]

I was willing to hear you out until I got to the bolded.

There are indiscretions and then there are reprehensible, deplorable crimes.

This isn't Aliir sleeping in on game-day, or Lewis Taylor

28

Lewis Taylor

Age

29

Ht

174cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.6

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.1

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.9

3star

D

9.6

2star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.8

2star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.2

3star

CL

0.2

2star

D

12.6

4star

K

6.2

3star

HB

6.4

4star

M

2.0

3star

T

2.2

4star

CL

1.2

4star

/Will Gould turning up to pre-season out of shape, or Papley needing his head pulled in on the field, or even Talia getting caught with a baggy. They are disciplinary/decision-making/attitude/commitment indiscretions that a club and corporation exactly like ours are well equipped and positioned to 'develop' and 'mentor' said players through.

We shouldn't have to develop and mentor a kid to stop him assaulting a woman, particularly when we have sponsors and a reputation to uphold in society in order to keep this club afloat.

That's a no-brainer. You might need to ask yourself why you think the club should even have to rationalise such a logical, moral decision.

People need to stop with the absolute rubbish machismo attitude to this whole 'assault' thing. Yes it's terrible. But it's not above every other discretion. It's not beyond the point of rehabilitation. Marlion Pickett

50

Marlion Pickett

Age

33

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

5.5

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.3

5star

CL

1.5

4star

D

11.7

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

5.0

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.6

4star

CL

1.3

4star

D

12.8

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.6

4star

was charged with assault, grieves bodily harm, 17 accounts of burglary, destroying people's livelihoods.Comes back into the worshipped culture of Richmond and now has 2 premierships. What about their sponsors???

Easy for you to sit on your priveladged armchair being the white knight for all assault victims. What were Elijah's previous circumstances? Did he experience assault between his parents, family etc, did he grow up amongst alcohol and drugs? Don't need to be a genius to know why alot of indigenous kids have certain issues.

Anyone who shows remorse deserves a second chance. We don't know of he did or not. If he was remorseful then I'm disappointed in the club.

 

[Olian]

Again, the AFL is a very different workforce. There are alot of things people get away with in their personal lives within the standard workforce compared to the AFL. When was the last time your company found out let alone reprimanded you for something as simple as drink driving? The AFL demands a massive lifestyle change, it's a different ball game. It ain't a simple adjustment. I'm sure every club will be happy to accept it has a responsibilty developing all players not just the kids
, continually, not just a 1st year intro and thats it.

I would've expected the club to give him the chance to show remorse firstly, and buy back into what is expected of him at the club and win back the trust of his teammates. If he had succeeded after all this, it would be something for the club to be proud of.

Go back and read the club’s statements in relation to Taylor. He didn’t buy in. The club isn’t running a crèche.

 

[zyzzbruh]

Back in September Harley said Taylor had failed to "abide by club directives on a number of occasions this year".

Taylor stood down by Swans after assault charge laid

The Swans have moved to distance themselves from the talented 19-year-old, who was charged with aggravated assault by WA police on Monday morning.

www.theage.com.au

So... I would say that he had multiple chances already and burnt through them.

Marlion Pickett

50

Marlion Pickett

Age

33

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

5.5

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.3

5star

CL

1.5

4star

D

11.7

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

5.0

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.6

4star

CL

1.3

4star

D

12.8

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.6

4star

burnt through assault, bodily harm, 17 burglaries. But was allowed a chance to win 2 premierships.

 

[Bear31]

Again, the AFL is a very different workforce. There are alot of things people get away with in their personal lives within the standard workforce compared to the AFL. When was the last time your company found out let alone reprimanded you for something as simple as drink driving? The AFL demands a massive lifestyle change, it's a different ball game. It ain't a simple adjustment. I'm sure every club will be happy to accept it has a responsibilty developing all players not just the kids
, continually, not just a 1st year intro and thats it.

I would've expected the club to give him the chance to show remorse firstly, and buy back into what is expected of him at the club and win back the trust of his teammates. If he had succeeded after all this, it would be something for the club to be proud of.

The trouble with your last paragraph is that the club has responsibilities to sponsors and the wider community, including you men and women in the academy. The club cannot be seen as employing men who allegedly commit crimes against women and are continually employed. Is this acceptable. First offense, second offense etc. No. I'm no moral guardian of anything but I support the Swans in no violence against anyone. I do not want players at my club using drugs, bashing women, or anything else like that. They can leave the club. Go away. get better and come back and be a better example of themselves. This is not a rehab clinic.

 

[zyzzbruh]

Go back and read the club’s statements in relation to Taylor. He didn’t buy in. The club isn’t running a crèche.

There's no depth to the club statement what so ever. Made 'some poor decisions' does not explain anything about him not buying in, or having the oppertunity to buy back in.

 

[caesar88]

People need to stop with the absolute rubbish machismo attitude to this whole 'assault' thing. Yes it's terrible. But it's not above every other discretion. It's not beyond the point of rehabilitation. Marlion Pickett

50

Marlion Pickett

Age

33

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

5.5

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.3

5star

CL

1.5

4star

D

11.7

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

5.0

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.6

4star

CL

1.3

4star

D

12.8

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.6

4star

was charged with assault, grieves bodily harm, 17 accounts of burglary, destroying people's livelihoods.Comes back into the worshipped culture of Richmond and now has 2 premierships. What about their sponsors???

Easy for you to sit on your priveladged armchair being the white knight for all assault victims. What were Elijah's previous circumstances? Did he experience assault between his parents, family etc, did he grow up amongst alcohol and drugs? Don't need to be a genius to know why alot of indigenous kids have certain issues.

Anyone who shows remorse deserves a second chance. We don't know of he did or not. If he was remorseful then I'm disappointed in the club.

Just gonna focus on your last point as the rest is total and utter BS.

I am thinking that if his team-mates were cutting ties with him, not just captains but also young players his own age, then he probably didn't show the remorse you are speaking of.

 

[zyzzbruh]

The trouble with your last paragraph is that the club has responsibilities to sponsors and the wider community, including you men and women in the academy. The club cannot be seen as employing men who allegedly commit crimes against women and are continually employed. Is this acceptable. First offense, second offense etc. No. I'm no moral guardian of anything but I support the Swans in no violence against anyone. I do not want players at my club using drugs, bashing women, or anything else like that. They can leave the club. Go away. get better and come back and be a better example of themselves. This is not a rehab clinic.

Fair enough opinion. My issue isn't this particular situation in itself, but what overall responsibilty do clubs have in such scenarios? Imo the club should be more than happy to mentor a player through such an issue, especially a teenager.

 

[RobbieK]

Marlion Pickett

50

Marlion Pickett

Age

33

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

5.5

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.3

5star

CL

1.5

4star

D

11.7

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

5.0

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.6

4star

CL

1.3

4star

D

12.8

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.6

4star

burnt through assault, bodily harm, 17 burglaries. But was allowed a chance to win 2 premierships.

Sure... after spending about three years in prison and another 5 years in the WAFL... not sure why you are skipping over that detail...

Taylor can also get a second chance at an AFL career, but it isn't going to be in 2021 at our club.

 

[zyzzbruh]

Just gonna focus on your last point as the rest is total and utter BS.

I am thinking that if his team-mates were cutting ties with him, not just captains but also young players his own age, then he probably didn't show the remorse you are speaking of.

It's not BS at all. Avoid it if you want all good.

If he didn't show remorse then I'm all for sending him back to where he came from. But that is the assumption that I'm trying to get my head around because the club statement does not address it in the slightest.

 

[Bear31]

Fair enough opinion. My issue isn't this particular situation in itself, but what overall responsibilty do clubs have in such scenarios? Imo the club should be more than happy to mentor a player through such an issue, especially a teenager.

How do you know they won't be supporting him in some way?

 

[zyzzbruh]

Sure... after spending about three years in prison and another 5 years in the WAFL... not sure why you are skipping over that detail...

Taylor can also get a second chance at an AFL career, but it isn't going to be in 2021 at our club.

It's an example of the absolute hole you can come back from and be succesfull. Imo it would be noble of the club to have a hand in his rehab, not just wipe their hands clean.

Elijah's case wouldnt be overly difficult either, it's not drug addiction rehab.

 

[zyzzbruh]

How do you know they won't be supporting him in some way?

Why not say it? It's the only reason why I'm questioning it. They glossed over it with little detail

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Marlion Pickett

50

Marlion Pickett

Age

33

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

5.5

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.3

5star

CL

1.5

4star

D

11.7

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

5.0

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.6

4star

CL

1.3

4star

D

12.8

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.6

4star

burnt through assault, bodily harm, 17 burglaries. But was allowed a chance to win 2 premierships.

They just make them move in with Dimma or Brendale Gale (im serious)

 

[caesar88]

Fair enough opinion. My issue isn't this particular situation in itself, but what overall responsibilty do clubs have in such scenarios? Imo the club should be more than happy to mentor a player through such an issue, especially a teenager.

You seem to be so invested in teenagers getting their fair chance. How about the hundreds of draft prospects who would work their absolute arses off if given the privilege of having an AFL career, and who would never lay a hand on a woman, who are overlooked every year in favour of the more talented guys like Taylor. How about a guy like Zac Foot, who took his career so seriously he didn't touch alcohol in his off-season, and would likely still be on the list if not culled because of an unfortunate and unprecedented pandemic like COVID.

And you are trying to rally some sort of sympathy for Taylor, a guy who in his short time at the club, not only broke club and AFL rules, and state law with his quarantine breach, but then pled guilty to assaulting a woman in a federal court. By the way, this was all after he had the kind of privileged treatment most teenagers don't get in their first year at a club - wearing the number of an all-time great in Adam Goodes, having the mentorship of an all-time great in Buddy Franklin, and stalwarts of the Bloods culture like John Longmire and Brett Kirk

Brett Kirk

Age

48

Ht

184cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.5

5star

K

8.9

3star

HB

9.6

5star

M

2.7

3star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.4

4star

No current season stats available

D

16.8

4star

K

13.0

5star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.2

4star

around him.

Do I hope he gets support from his family, and professional help, and education on domestic violence, and ultimately turns his life around? Absolutely. That would be the best not just for him, but for society as a whole. But you sound ridiculous trying to paint Taylor as some kind of victim in this situation, when he's simply someone who squandered his privilege.

 

[RobbieK]

It's an example of the absolute hole you can come back from and be succesfull. Imo it would be noble of the club to have a hand in his rehab, not just wipe their hands clean.

Elijah's case wouldnt be overly difficult either, it's not drug addiction rehab.

It isn't the club's responsibility at this point. At a time when clubs' resources are getting stretched to the limit, our duty of care to those players who are on the list trumps our duty of care to players who are not. Taylor made too many mistakes this year to be on the list next year, so that is how it is.

 

[zyzzbruh]

You seem to be so invested in teenagers getting their fair chance. How about the hundreds of draft prospects who would work their absolute arses off if given the privilege of having an AFL career, and who would never lay a hand on a woman, who are overlooked every year in favour of the more talented guys like Taylor. How about a guy like Zac Foot, who took his career so seriously he didn't touch alcohol in his off-season, and would likely still be on the list if not culled because of an unfortunate and unprecedented pandemic like COVID.

And you are trying to rally some sort of sympathy for Taylor, a guy who in his short time at the club, not only broke club and AFL rules, and state law with his quarantine breach, but then pled guilty to assaulting a woman in a federal court. By the way, this was all after he had the kind of privileged treatment most teenagers don't get in their first year at a club - wearing the number of an all-time great in Adam Goodes, having the mentorship of an all-time great in Buddy Franklin, and stalwarts of the Bloods culture like John Longmire and Brett Kirk

Brett Kirk

Age

48

Ht

184cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.5

5star

K

8.9

3star

HB

9.6

5star

M

2.7

3star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.4

4star

No current season stats available

D

16.8

4star

K

13.0

5star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.2

4star

around him.

Do I hope he gets support from his family, and professional help, and education on domestic violence, and ultimately turns his life around? Absolutely. That would be the best not just for him, but for society as a whole. But you sound ridiculous trying to paint Taylor as some kind of victim in this situation, when he's simply someone who squandered his privilege.

I'm not trying to paint anything. I'm commenting on the clarity of the club's statement. My only opinion on such issues is that it would be noble of clubs to play a hand in mentoring and rehab in such scenarios. Regardless of that, the way the club statement was worded gave me the impression that they wanted to wipe their hands clean of him so they don't need to deal with it.

If that's their decision then that's fine. But the way the statement was politically worded was odd. Why tiptoe around the clarity of the whole scenario? That makes me think they realise people out their would expect them to have some sort of responsibilty in this situation, but they're trying to slide through unnoticed.