Coach 2022 Coaching

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botts said:
And why can we ******* kick straight. Given, I don’t watch as much as other teams but we kick ourselves out of so many games
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Mental fragility

Same as the fadeouts
 
I might move this discussion to the coaching thread or something later, but I also want to say one other thing that is really pissing me off about the commentary coming out of the club and could play a part in the mental fragility of the group.

I wish the club would just STOP banging on about delivering our 2nd flag. Every single time we make a new appointment or develop Moorabbin or get a letter from the president they feel the need to always mention striving towards our 2nd premiership. I was thinking about it the other day and comparing it to the club I follow in the EPL, Liverpool, and it kind of struck me that the constant talk of delivering something we've been waiting for for more than 50 years could play a part in the pressure lumped onto the players to deliver it...and possibly some of them carry that burden with them too.

Liverpool hadn't won a league title in 30 seasons as of 2020. We hired a new manager around 2016 and understanding the supporters desperation of wanting to break the drought the first thing he did publicly and privately was tell everyone that this was a new group and they needed to make their own history. They were playing for a big club with a big history but they needed to "remove the backpack" of the history of the players that came and won before them and look towards having success of their own. Within 4 years of his appointment we won the league title (first time since 1990) and a European cup (first time since 2005). Whilst he acknowledged and respected the success of the players that came before him, he said the group we had now should look to create memories and success with each other - he framed it as if they were playing for a "new" club.

I would be interested to see what would happen to the psyche of the players if we just completely dropped the constant need to mention the 2nd flag and addressed it directly with the players, wipe the slate clean, tell them not to burden themselves with it, etc and make an actual effort to avoid bringing it up in public or in private. Maybe this added pressure and the expectation from so many people is playing a part in weighing them down.

Since 2016 I've believed our issues haven't been as much physical/talent/gameplan as they have mentality. We play like a side under enormous pressure. They may say it doesn't affect them (the drought) but I'm sure it plays a part and I don't understand why our club can't see how the constant talk might be playing a part in their mental state.

Just something to consider.


And if you can be bothered (it goes for 27 minutes) this is his first press conference - note the many times he mentions the state and history of the club - and then apply those statements to how they'd look at our club. I think it would help.





Go to 9:15 for what I'm really on about.
 

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While I don’t have a great feeling about this year, I’m actually enjoying people writing us off.

As much as round 1 was disappointing, and hurt to watch. A lot of media have been quick to absolutely shoot their shot at us. And some of their comments are very much deserved.

But it is only round 1. Last years round 1? We beat gws away from home and we were on top of the world. What it shows? You’re never as good as what you’re going, and you’re never as bad what you are going.

Media tend to over react in a loss. I’ve seen comments from David king, cameron ling, Kane cornes. All taking aim at us for different reasons, right or wrong.

What if we win this week? Media will say good things, players will get a lot of love, coaches will get praised.

My point is and like I said up too You’re never as good as what you’re going, and you’re never as bad what you are going. One bad week, won’t determine our season.

Looking forward to a response on Sunday.
 
George said:
I might move this discussion to the coaching thread or something later, but I also want to say one other thing that is really pissing me off about the commentary coming out of the club and could play a part in the mental fragility of the group.

I wish the club would just STOP banging on about delivering our 2nd flag. Every single time we make a new appointment or develop Moorabbin or get a letter from the president they feel the need to always mention striving towards our 2nd premiership. I was thinking about it the other day and comparing it to the club I follow in the EPL, Liverpool, and it kind of struck me that the constant talk of delivering something we've been waiting for for more than 50 years could play a part in the pressure lumped onto the players to deliver it...and possibly some of them carry that burden with them too.

Liverpool hadn't won a league title in 30 seasons as of 2020. We hired a new manager around 2016 and understanding the supporters desperation of wanting to break the drought the first thing he did publicly and privately was tell everyone that this was a new group and they needed to make their own history. They were playing for a big club with a big history but they needed to "remove the backpack" of the history of the players that came and won before them and look towards having success of their own. Within 4 years of his appointment we won the league title (first time since 1990) and a European cup (first time since 2005). Whilst he acknowledged and respected the success of the players that came before him, he said the group we had now should look to create memories and success with each other - he framed it as if they were playing for a "new" club.

I would be interested to see what would happen to the psyche of the players if we just completely dropped the constant need to mention the 2nd flag and addressed it directly with the players, wipe the slate clean, tell them not to burden themselves with it, etc and make an actual effort to avoid bringing it up in public or in private. Maybe this added pressure and the expectation from so many people is playing a part in weighing them down.

Since 2016 I've believed our issues haven't been as much physical/talent/gameplan as they have mentality. We play like a side under enormous pressure. They may say it doesn't affect them (the drought) but I'm sure it plays a part and I don't understand why our club can't see how the constant talk might be playing a part in their mental state.

Just something to consider.


And if you can be bothered (it goes for 27 minutes) this is his first press conference - note the many times he mentions the state and history of the club - and then apply those statements to how they'd look at our club. I think it would help.





Go to 9:15 for what I'm really on about.
Click to expand...

How did he Western Bulldogs handle that pressure? They were in the same position as us.
 
Pakenhamsaint said:
How did he Western Bulldogs handle that pressure? They were in the same position as us.
Click to expand...
I would say it's not a good idea to assume everyone handles pressure the same way.
 
George said:
I would say it's not a good idea to assume everyone handles pressure the same way.
Click to expand...
We can learn from it though. Even Melbourne they were in a similar boat. In the end the actual number of premierships is rather meaninglessness. It's the time that gets it. We should be looking at other clubs to see what techniques they've brought to the table. From memory reading Konrad Marshall's book about the Tigers premiership they had a mental wellbeing coach
 
Pakenhamsaint said:
We can learn from it though. Even Melbourne they were in a similar boat. In the end the actual number of premierships is rather meaninglessness. It's the time that gets it. We should be looking at other clubs to see what techniques they've brought to the table. From memory reading Konrad Marshall's book about the Tigers premiership they had a mental wellbeing coach
Click to expand...
We've done the same
 
George said:
I would say it's not a good idea to assume everyone handles pressure the same way.
Click to expand...

Your post raised a very interesting point I had never considered, but the more I think about it the more I wonder if you might be onto something.

How often does the team stumble when there's more to play for? The Danny Frawley memorial match, many big Friday night games, the few marquee games we got (Anzac Day, Good Friday etc), milestone matches. Any time there's a feeling of a big game and the team doesn't show up to play.
Maybe on the whole, the team really struggles with those moments where they feel they're expected to win.

It's a bit of a theme the last few years, let's say 4 or 5 years, where we come up against a seriously strong team and end up beating them (or flogging them), but then going on to play a dud team the next week and getting beaten. Maybe the lack of pressure around playing a top 4 team helps the team play better?
 
jwikked said:
Your post raised a very interesting point I had never considered, but the more I think about it the more I wonder if you might be onto something.

How often does the team stumble when there's more to play for? The Danny Frawley memorial match, many big Friday night games, the few marquee games we got (Anzac Day, Good Friday etc), milestone matches. Any time there's a feeling of a big game and the team doesn't show up to play.
Maybe on the whole, the team really struggles with those moments where they feel they're expected to win.

It's a bit of a theme the last few years, let's say 4 or 5 years, where we come up against a seriously strong team and end up beating them (or flogging them), but then going on to play a dud team the next week and getting beaten. Maybe the lack of pressure around playing a top 4 team helps the team play better?
Click to expand...


I joked about it before the game but it's a theme. And as someone else said, we'll win this week because the game is off broadway with no expectation on them. Our one good year had no crowds and was played in the middle of nowhere. It was an introverted players perfect scenario. Just to illustrate this look at Billings' goal conversion. 2020 he all of a sudden completely straightened up. Crowds back and his accuracy went back to his historically 50% conversion rate.
 

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Pakenhamsaint said:
We can learn from it though. Even Melbourne they were in a similar boat. In the end the actual number of premierships is rather meaninglessness. It's the time that gets it. We should be looking at other clubs to see what techniques they've brought to the table. From memory reading Konrad Marshall's book about the Tigers premiership they had a mental wellbeing coach
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Yeah but that's all sounding a bit Why Not Us?

There's no trick to it really. The Dees built a strategy, drafted and traded well, got lucky, got fit, stayed the course, tweaked the backroom staff and lastly toughened up.

Why not us? Why not indeed, Brett? Have a good hard look in that mirror sunshine and cut the crap.
 
George said:
I might move this discussion to the coaching thread or something later, but I also want to say one other thing that is really pissing me off about the commentary coming out of the club and could play a part in the mental fragility of the group.

I wish the club would just STOP banging on about delivering our 2nd flag. Every single time we make a new appointment or develop Moorabbin or get a letter from the president they feel the need to always mention striving towards our 2nd premiership. I was thinking about it the other day and comparing it to the club I follow in the EPL, Liverpool, and it kind of struck me that the constant talk of delivering something we've been waiting for for more than 50 years could play a part in the pressure lumped onto the players to deliver it...and possibly some of them carry that burden with them too.

Liverpool hadn't won a league title in 30 seasons as of 2020. We hired a new manager around 2016 and understanding the supporters desperation of wanting to break the drought the first thing he did publicly and privately was tell everyone that this was a new group and they needed to make their own history. They were playing for a big club with a big history but they needed to "remove the backpack" of the history of the players that came and won before them and look towards having success of their own. Within 4 years of his appointment we won the league title (first time since 1990) and a European cup (first time since 2005). Whilst he acknowledged and respected the success of the players that came before him, he said the group we had now should look to create memories and success with each other - he framed it as if they were playing for a "new" club.

I would be interested to see what would happen to the psyche of the players if we just completely dropped the constant need to mention the 2nd flag and addressed it directly with the players, wipe the slate clean, tell them not to burden themselves with it, etc and make an actual effort to avoid bringing it up in public or in private. Maybe this added pressure and the expectation from so many people is playing a part in weighing them down.

Since 2016 I've believed our issues haven't been as much physical/talent/gameplan as they have mentality. We play like a side under enormous pressure. They may say it doesn't affect them (the drought) but I'm sure it plays a part and I don't understand why our club can't see how the constant talk might be playing a part in their mental state.

Just something to consider.


And if you can be bothered (it goes for 27 minutes) this is his first press conference - note the many times he mentions the state and history of the club - and then apply those statements to how they'd look at our club. I think it would help.





Go to 9:15 for what I'm really on about.
Click to expand...
Music to my ears, mate. This guy is a legend and changed so much. His biggest success is not only being uncompromising with his system and way of playing, but developing his players to play that way. I doubt whether Firmino, Robertson, Henderson and TAA would be as good if you threw them in another team, in fact their international careers back this up but even other league teams.

I don't know what Rath's great strategy is, or how Ratten trains, but last year we saw a team low in skills fitness, intelligence and mental toughness and they had the entire off-season to sort this out. Have they trained their players to play Rath's version of Saints Footy? Can they? Is it even a viable plan in a very different AFL landscape to the one in which Hawthorn had so much success?

To my mind there's The Plan which the players seem unable to execute correctly, and then there's the more practical style which players seem to be able to do properly but which isn't part of the plan.

We need to be clear about what the plan is. If he has to keep it a secret it cost be that strong. Everyone knows Klopp's plan, but few can stop it.

Your point about expectation and crowds is great too. So much depends on Saints fans at the ground, how we support. Even a strong club like Liverpool suffered when they couldn't get crowds to games. Supporters need to feel they are part of the plan, not just spectators. When Klopp regularly emphasises the importance of the crowd; he's not being patronising. He understands the power of the Kop to support his players, to create momentum to lift players heads when they sink. St Kilda can't even get a decent crowd to attend, let alone contribute positively. Ratten needs to address this too. It's about time Saints took this element of the game seriously.
 
austinnn said:
I wonder what the tipping point might be for the Saints admin to pull the trigger and abort the mission, refresh coaching group and in that scenario do they hope that a new coach can get the playing group to fulfil its percieved potential or dump/trade all non-essential players and set for a hard rebuild.

I suppose they will definitely let Ratten see out his contract to avoid scandal, so like it or lump it we've got the Ra-Ra version of Saints Footy, (by which I mean Rath-Ratten)

But I wonder how bad things would actually have to go for us to sack him early? It would have to even be more than certs for the spoon in June I think. I'm talking player in-fighting, wanting out, that kind of drama.

Let's hope we don't veer anywhere near that neighbourhood. At this stage I don't put anything past us. We could get correct and storm into the 4, as per my off-season prediction, but the entire AFL community thinks we'll be sh*t this year, most of the fans on here think we're sh*t, so as hard as it is for me to conceive, it might be time for me to work on the assumption that maybe we're not going to do great things in 2022.

Sick of it frankly.

Every decision we have made for donkeys years, seems to be weird and needing to be justified (rather than boring and obvious and failsafe) and not without merit but so much downside:
  • Lovett
  • Seaford
  • Not giving Lyon financial security, letting him get his head turned
  • Hiring Scott Watters then realising what he was
  • Hiring Alan Richardson instead of Mark Williams
  • Letting Pelchen have his way with us
  • Letting Trout dictate what the make up of our club should be
  • Drafting Billings and McCartin
  • Trading pick 5 for Carlisle and Gresham
  • Drafting Clark and Coffield when we wanted mids
  • Alternating between Hickey and Longer
  • Trading a 2RDP for Nathan Freeman, keeping him injured on the list for years then delisting him after a few games
  • Trading in a bunch of picks to secure Clavarino and Austin
  • Extending Richo's contract
  • Letting Adam Kingsley go and keeping Richo
  • Bringing in Hannebury on a massive contract, despite injury concerns
  • Bringing in all of Alistair Clarkson's support staff
  • Trading pick 6 for Hill, Howard and probably Paddy came as a result of that
  • Drafting Allison as a long-term prospect forward, then turning him into a backman
  • Bringing in Paddy Ryder and Zac Jones, despite injury concerns
  • Trading in Brad Crouch instead of Jye Caldwell
  • That's without all the things we didn't do, like trying to move up in the draft order by trading good players, trading out Armitage, Steven or Ross when they had some market value, developing certain players properly, retaining players like McCartin, Hind, and Parker, giving Luke Beverage a job sooner before the Bulldogs would be ready to find a new head coach, approaching upcoming assistants like Leppa and Caracella etc
Yes, most of those decisions were an entirely different admin, and as I said most had serious upside, and I did support them at the time, in some cases still do, but DAMN why can't it just go right for us for a change? Boo Hoo sorry eveyone, just chucking my toys out of my pram here. Thank god for Liverpool, that's all I can say.
Click to expand...
You can see the club has made some disastrous moves.
However the last 3 yrs the club has tried it best to improve everything about the club , we are now run professionally.
Since Richardson left we have had the biggest list cull I have ever seen a club do.
Management , Coaches and Players and it's pretty hard to improve the list when you don't have very much to trade with.
So what they have achieved is impressive.
They lost on the weekend but seriously they will show more as the year goes on.
The team list is by far better than it has been for years and now we have a bundle of young talent to blend into the team to replace guys when we need too.
Owens , Windhager and Milera will be a player's.
 
Premium said:
You can see the club has made some disastrous moves.
However the last 3 yrs the club has tried it best to improve everything about the club , we are now run professionally.
Since Richardson left we have had the biggest list cull I have ever seen a club do.
Management , Coaches and Players and it's pretty hard to improve the list when you don't have very much to trade with.
So what they have achieved is impressive.
They lost on the weekend but seriously they will show more as the year goes on.
The team list is by far better than it has been for years and now we have a bundle of young talent to blend into the team to replace guys when we need too.
Owens , Windhager and Milera will be a player's.
Click to expand...
We said the same thing about Billings Acres & Dunstan, Picks 3 - 18-19
Will we show more as the year go on ? God I hope so but its not the injuries its our crap list that has no depth
 
botts said:
Kane sums it up Perfectly, not winning a flag and not giving the fans hope by drafting top end talent. Had one rising star nom in 4 years. We might be fcuked
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well, too many people got their hopes up with the draft. they are 18 year olds and it will take another year or two for us to have a good midfield. we should be playing youth this year, . Reality has already stepped in.
 
sammm said:
well, too many people got their hopes up with the draft. they are 18 year olds and it will take another year or two for us to have a good midfield. we should be playing youth this year, . Reality has already stepped in.
Click to expand...
I’m not so much talking about this years draft because I reckon they will be good. But the 5 years previous have been very average
 
sammm said:
well, too many people got their hopes up with the draft. they are 18 year olds and it will take another year or two for us to have a good midfield. we should be playing youth this year, . Reality has already stepped in.
Click to expand...
Rising star is the biggest load of horse crap. It’s so biased and there is no criteria imo

All of Bytel, coffield, Sharman Pato we’re all deserving of rising star noms at some stage.
 
I don't buy this, we have had a hard talk BS anymore.

First quarter of the first game of a new season and the pressure index is 168.

If you can't start the first game with pressure there is something fundamentally wrong at the club.

Being a supporter is like being in a cult. they feed you the same word salad crisis meetings every year with the same result. And the cultists (you and I) let them and fall for it.

wears a bit thin.
 
Joffaboy said:
I don't buy this, we have had a hard talk BS anymore.

First quarter of the first game of a new season and the pressure index is 168.

If you can't start the first game with pressure there is something fundamentally wrong at the club.

Being a supporter is like being in a cult. they feed you the same word salad crisis meetings every year with the same result. And the cultists (you and I) let them and fall for it.

wears a bit thin.
Click to expand...
I have listened to the excuses for too many seasons.
I have ceased to take any notice.
 

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