Discussion 2022 General AFL Discussion

[phantom13]

jwikked made a good point about not being sold on the racist aspect, as the reason this has all come out was because of a review the club was doing with only indigenous players. I'm finding it hard to believe personally but ultimately I don't know so I'm fascinated to see what the non-indigenous players said about it. I've only heard Hodge and Lewis speak on it and they've both said they were unaware but I struggle to believe that. Either the allegations are false or the players are lying about not knowing. How could something that serious not spread through the club or at the very least the playing group?

I get the whole non racist argument here (perhaps they encouraged all players to have abortions so they could focus on football) but the racist element is two fold regardless of the policy.

- the white Australia policy and stolen generation is generational trauma. For many indigenous Australians this is extremely triggering (it might also be triggering for non indigenous Australians but we can’t discount their experience here)

- the way it was addressed with the indigenous players (if it was a policy regardless of race) it seems pretty evident the way that policy was addressed with the indigenous players is different to what it would have been otherwise

The “policy” is ****ed regardless of whether it was just implemented for indigenous players or minorities but let’s not try to imply that it doesn’t have some pretty obvious historically racist roots.

 

[George]

I get the whole non racist argument here (perhaps they encouraged all players to have abortions so they could focus on football) but the racist element is two fold regardless of the policy.

- the white Australia policy and stolen generation is generational trauma. For many indigenous Australians this is extremely triggering (it might also be triggering for non indigenous Australians but we can’t discount their experience here)

- the way it was addressed with the indigenous players (if it was a policy regardless of race) it seems pretty evident the way that policy was addressed with the indigenous players is different to what it would have been otherwise

The “policy” is *ed regardless of whether it was just implemented for indigenous players or minorities but let’s not try to imply that it doesn’t have some pretty obvious historically racist roots.

I don't think anyone is implying that at all, maybe you've misinterpreted the discussion. I don't want to speak for jwikked but perhaps he is saying that if this was happening to non-indigenous players it's more of a ****ed policy than a targeting of a specific race.

 

[gringo2011]

The other thing I can't understand is why Hill wants to go back and play for Clarkson, indigenous player or not. Don't know why anyone would want to play under Clarkson again if they came from that Hawthorn era.

It all points to the players not knowing what went on, but geez how the hell did that get kept quiet?

I think it sounds like a lot could be from one certain player that has had public issues with the club. Probably not a blanket program but individuals that were bullied. Perhaps they gaslighted him not believing him because of their own experiences? Who knows, hopefully if true the hammer comes down hard on the two coaches and they are pushed out of footy.

 

[George]

I think it sounds like a lot could be from one certain player that has had public issues with the club. Probably not a blanket program but individuals that were bullied. Perhaps they gaslighted him not believing him because of their own experiences? Who knows, hopefully if true the hammer comes down hard on the two coaches and they are pushed out of footy.

Hodge was saying something on SEN yesterday about how players have discussions about toxic relationships and that helping the player to separate from a partner can be good for them. I think you are right in that it's coming from one player who has most likely been bullied. At the moment it looks hideous but hopefully this investigation can shed some light on it. Either way I can't see how Clarkson and Fagan continue in the industry. Depends how much of it is true but the work to gain respect back from here for both of them is enormous.

 

[Barrels]

Snaketeflon

On Pixel 6 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Bloke is absolutely unhinged.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Well I must say the afl have done an amazing job of keeping this scandal subdued in the media with the gf almost upon us. It took the major news outlets ages to latch on to the story yesterday and while they’re mentioning it today in their bulletins they aren’t spending hours over analysing it as they would say if a farmer cheated on his potential wife.
Bit of a mention a brief clip of Gil letting all those know he has his arms wrapped around them and then off to a Sydney supporter feel good story.
Hmmmmmmm.

 

[Verdun]

'Hawthorn Racism Review'

To believe that racism is not part of this is naive at best.

 

[George]

Anyone know how many clubs this has the potential to involve? Anyone know the list of coaches under Clarkson during that period?

 

[Saint Kidding]

The Hawthorn allegations are appalling whether the alleged actions were race driven or not.

Separating people from their families. Changing phone sim cards, limiting contact with partners etc. It's the kind of thing religious cults do to keep their followers fully indoctrinated in their ways and out of touch with ANY other influence. It's creepy at best and nothing short of evil at worst.

As much as the allegations are unproven, the evidence is quite strong. There are damning accounts from three players and their partners/ex-partners and families.

I think Clarkson & Fagan's coaching careers are over.

 

[BigMonty]

What hasn't got a run as yet is that it borders on Australia's Modern Slavery Act brought in 2016.


What is an example of modern slavery?

Modern forms of slavery can include debt bondage, where a person is forced to work for free to pay off a debt, child slavery, forced marriage, domestic servitude and forced labour, where victims are made to work through violence and intimidation. The BBC looks at five examples of modern slavery.31 May 2016.

Victims are made to work through intimidation.....would think that is at the heart of what Clarko did to these young men and their families.

The master servant explains when there is an imbalance in the workplace but this is the next level by effecting things outside if the workplace......surprised no one in the media has run with this.

Maybe next week when cleverer heads get a chance to look at it.

Clarko and probably Fagan are gone to the industry if it is proven along the balance of probabilities rather beyond reasonable doubt which is a criminal matter



On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[pebblesofsand]

What hasn't got a run as yet is that it borders on Australia's Modern Slavery Act brought in 2016.


What is an example of modern slavery?

Modern forms of slavery can include debt bondage, where a person is forced to work for free to pay off a debt, child slavery, forced marriage, domestic servitude and forced labour, where victims are made to work through violence and intimidation. The BBC looks at five examples of modern slavery.31 May 2016.

Victims are made to work through intimidation.....would think that is at the heart of what Clarko did to these young men and their families.

The master servant explains when there is an imbalance in the workplace but this is the next level by effecting things outside if the workplace......surprised no one in the media has run with this.

Maybe next week when cleverer heads get a chance to look at it.

Clarko and probably Fagan are gone to the industry if it is proven along the balance of probabilities rather beyond reasonable doubt which is a criminal matter



On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yeah you're right - its hard to see Clarkson, Fagan, Kennett and a few others surviving this but it will be more because of the naivety of the general football fan/general public than the actual allegations that have been made.

Be clear, this "review" was done as a "welfare" check on First Nations players only. No other players from different backgrounds were contacted and no follow up discussions were held with the coaching staff who are now subject to allegations.

I have no doubt that in the cut throat world of the AFL, most of the behaviours outlined in the report would be common and I would be happy to wager that over the years, all clubs will have over the years would have put pressure on a variety of players WRT relationships, off field behaviours and friendships and tried to mentally manipulate players from all backgrounds to get them to buy into the "cult" in the pursuit of success.

In the end, you mind find that most of it will be driven by a "win at all costs" philosophy than purely race related, but its out in the general public and subtlety and nuance is out the window.

 

[Geary Is GOAT]

Since I’ve been banned from the main and north board threads on the subject for calling out peoples shitty both sides calls, I’m going to talk about the issue here.

The North thread is ******* atrocious. Just incredibly racist and bigoted posters in there that aren’t having posts deleted or given bans. Like, what in the actual * is going on in there? Having their messiah guaranteed to be gone is turning them all into the biggest campaigners.

Just read this:

The people on this thread that have already found Clarko, Fagan and anyone else involved guilty without due process are the same people that cheered loudly when OJ was found innocent.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

What the **** does this even mean? Why the hell are they bringing up OJ? - They're losing the plot over there.

 

[George]

Just read this:

The people on this thread that have already found Clarko, Fagan and anyone else involved guilty without due process are the same people that cheered loudly when OJ was found innocent.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

What the * does this even mean? Why the hell are they bringing up OJ? - They're losing the plot over there.

How's your mate on the Twitters going?

 

[BigMonty]

Yeah you're right - its hard to see Clarkson, Fagan, Kennett and a few others surviving this but it will be more because of the naivety of the general football fan/general public than the actual allegations that have been made.

Be clear, this "review" was done as a "welfare" check on First Nations players only. No other players from different backgrounds were contacted and no follow up discussions were held with the coaching staff who are now subject to allegations.

I have no doubt that in the cut throat world of the AFL, most of the behaviours outlined in the report would be common and I would be happy to wager that over the years, all clubs will have over the years would have put pressure on a variety of players WRT relationships, off field behaviours and friendships and tried to mentally manipulate players from all backgrounds to get them to buy into the "cult" in the pursuit of success.

In the end, you mind find that most of it will be driven by a "win at all costs" philosophy than purely race related, but its out in the general public and subtlety and nuance is out the window.

Essendon brought the sport and drugs issue into mainstream culture and unfortunately paid a high price. Hird argued that Coll and Geel are doing so why not us?

The same will happen with this scandal. Undoubtedly all clubs have done some of this stuff to a some extent....but Hawks got caught and will suffer the first mover scrutiny whilst others fix up their operating procedures in the background.

Bit like the Aussie Cricket scandal cannot see Clarko and Fagan et al being involved in AFL management for some years

On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Sun Ra]

Hawthorn’s alleged abuse of Indigenous players looks much like modern slavery​

The AFL club's treatment of Indigenous players, as alleged by the ABC, must be severely punished if proven true. Clichéd responses won't do.

BERNARD KEANE
SEP 21, 2022
CRIKEY.COM

FORMER HAWTHORN HAWKS COACH ALASTAIR CLARKSON (LEFT) AND FORMER ASSISTANT COACH CHRIS FAGAN IN 2015 (IMAGE: AAP/JULIAN SMITH)

Cue the corporate clichés: “historic allegations”; they’re being investigated; the welfare of players and staff is “our No. 1 priority”; it’s being taken “extremely seriously”. The official line from the Hawthorn AFL club and the AFL itself seems like the warm-up to every corporate response to every major scandal of recent years — banks, insurance companies, aged care, casinos, mining companies. The line that you know means no one will be held to account, even if some board members or executives are moved on.

What the ABC’s Russell Jackson has revealed in his stunning, sickening report on the treatment of Indigenous players at Hawthorn — including players being coerced and manipulated into severing contact with family and partners and in one case demanding a pregnancy be terminated — is akin to modern slavery, and incorporates elements of it.

The indicators of modern slavery include:

• Appearing to be under the control of someone else and reluctant to interact with others
• Controlled or restricted movement
• Living at workplaces owned or controlled by an employer
• Isolation
• No discretion over life decisions.

The behaviour of Hawthorn coaching staff ticks each of these boxes in relation to their reported treatment of Indigenous players.

The modern slavery element is distinct from what is plainly an extraordinary level of racial discrimination. How many white AFL recruits from privileged, private school backgrounds were told to order their partners to terminate pregnancies, or sever contact with their families? How many were told to choose between spending time with their families and being forced to “socialise” with teammates?

If a major corporation was exposed as having treated Indigenous staff — or any staff — in such a fashion, it would be reputationally and legally smashed, investors would stampede for the exits and its board and senior executives pressed to quit on the spot.

But in Australia, sport casts a protective spell over even the most disgusting of abuses — and it’s difficult to recall anything worse than this across Australia’s major sports. Ever.

All those associated with these outrages must never again be allowed into any position of authority within any sporting body. That applies as much to Hawthorn board members at the time as the coaching staff.

Corporate Australia — and this is corporate Australia, even if shareholders aren’t involved and the industry concerned is sports and entertainment — faces another major accountability moment. Will this lead to anything more than pious words about “historic” events, lessons learnt and internal structures put in place to ensure it never happens again?

Those lines are have been so well rehearsed in recent years that you could almost write the media release ahead of time.

There needs to be punishment for these outrages, exemplary punishment that sends a signal to perpetrators that they will be held to account.

 

[sauce_head]

Hodge was saying something on SEN yesterday about how players have discussions about toxic relationships and that helping the player to separate from a partner can be good for them. I think you are right in that it's coming from one player who has most likely been bullied. At the moment it looks hideous but hopefully this investigation can shed some light on it. Either way I can't see how Clarkson and Fagan continue in the industry. Depends how much of it is true but the work to gain respect back from here for both of them is enormous.

Agree. It’s all about perspective and context. It’s difficult to see how it could be excusable at this point, but we do only have one very emotive perspective.

 

[Geary Is GOAT]

How's your mate on the Twitters going?

I haven't bothered to check in. I'll give him the long weekend to get pissed on long necks and really lose his marbles and have another gawk on Monday

 

[StFly]

jwikked made a good point about not being sold on the racist aspect, as the reason this has all come out was because of a review the club was doing with only indigenous players. I'm finding it hard to believe personally but ultimately I don't know so I'm fascinated to see what the non-indigenous players said about it. I've only heard Hodge and Lewis speak on it and they've both said they were unaware but I struggle to believe that. Either the allegations are false or the players are lying about not knowing. How could something that serious not spread through the club or at the very least the playing group?

Eugenics, not so much the actual race and more the racial aspects and no, you don't want that partner, you want this one that we have especially procured for you.

Hodge has acceptable statements, Lewis is dodgy AF in his and screams "I've been coached on what to say and when".

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Jesus h Christ what a **** s**t show

My Work is the absolute polar opposite of this mess for ALL people no mater your race, religion or sex and am very proud that they are

I'm gobsmacked s**t like this would happen still

Shouldn’t be a selling point that your workplace is safe and and pleasant comfortable to be at. I understand it’s rare but Jesus **** that should be the bare minimum you provide to your employees

 

[PoppedCorn]

Its not a selling point at all
But I've seen it roll out over the last 2 decades with how society has changed

The free grog and income protection is more of a selling point imo

 

[bergholt]

It all points to the players not knowing what went on, but geez how the hell did that get kept quiet?

I reckon the players in question were probably new and young and culturally different and so had minimal close relationships with the other players.

15 years or so ago I knew a guy who ended up on a rookie list at another club (not Hawthorn or Saints), lasted a couple of years but never played a game. He said in that dressing room there were about four or five different "tiers" of player. He reckoned some of the better players would barely have known his name, and they were the private school alphas that ran the place, so everyone wanted to be in their cool group. I remember he became mates with one of the other rookies (who also didn't make it) and basically they ended up with zero relationships with any of the other players from that time.

No idea if the Hawks dressing room was like that, but I suspect if you're an introverted 18 year old who sneaks onto the bottom end of the list of 45, might be no-one ever talks to you enough to find out that some bad shit is happening.

 

[Bertha]

I reckon the players in question were probably new and young and culturally different and so had minimal close relationships with the other players.

15 years or so ago I knew a guy who ended up on a rookie list at another club (not Hawthorn or Saints), lasted a couple of years but never played a game. He said in that dressing room there were about four or five different "tiers" of player. He reckoned some of the better players would barely have known his name, and they were the private school alphas that ran the place, so everyone wanted to be in their cool group. I remember he became mates with one of the other rookies (who also didn't make it) and basically they ended up with zero relationships with any of the other players from that time.

No idea if the Hawks dressing room was like that, but I suspect if you're an introverted 18 year old who sneaks onto the bottom end of the list of 45, might be no-one ever talks to you enough to find out that some bad s**t is happening.

There was a recent story on BF somewhere about Sam Mitchel throwing a young players gear all over the floor and threatening him if the young guy ever put his stuff in Mitchel's locker he'd do whatever a tiny man is capable le of doing to another person and basically bullied him for his duration at the club so I'm going to say it wasn't all kisses and cuddles 24/7.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I get that Fagan and Clarkson are no longer at the club, but surely the releasing of the "review" should have been held back until they were given the opportunity to at least respond to the allegations.

All that's happened now is that the judge (public opinion) has donned the black cap after hearing only one side of the story.

“I had no opportunity to, and did not, participate in any way in the review commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club. I was not interviewed. Nor was I invited to be interviewed. No one associated with the review ever put any allegation to me for a response."

 

[austinnn]

'Deeply distressed' Fagan denies Hawks racism allegations

Brisbane coach Chris Fagan categorically denies the allegations of mistreatment of Hawthorn's Indigenous players during his time at the club

www.afl.com.au

Categoric denials now from both. Gonna get messy. They will look even worse if the allegations are proven to be true /substantiated.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I thought Dani Laidley went alright at North, got the most out of a pretty ordinary list.

Pretty sure the name was changed later.
Was probably one of StKilda's better assistant coaches after that.