Discussion 2022 General AFL Discussion

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A specific incident and an individual reaction to that "thing" doesn't have to be what a "normal" person might expect to be a standard or "universal" response for it to be real, profound or harmful. The question to be asked is what the prime actor would expect might happen if I did this or that?

That's not the question any more. Ignorance is of the potential consequences is no defence, at least in the court of public opinion. No idea whether that's right or wrong but if you offend someone then it doesn't matter whether or not you could have predicted it, you're wrong these days.
 
Really depends on what your definition of arseh*le is.

From all accounts Clarko is already an arseh*le in his tenure at the hawks.

I think pressuring players to abandon their families and have their partners get abortions with threats of delisting and the like goes well past arseh*le.

Without knowing the guidelines of the AFL this sort of s**t would get you sacked from any other workplace (imagine your boss pushing you to have your partner or you getting an abortion with threats of demotion/sacking etc).

Obviously a process requires proof so I can completely agree on that point but trying to say if proven it might not be against the rules is a strange defence of it to me.

“Look we’ve proved you did it but it doesn’t contravene any specific rule so carry on with managing the welfare of these 48 young men”.

Don’t think that will fly personally.

I'd suggest that the coach should not be in charge of "managing the welfare" of players.
Neither should a production manager, or a site foreman, or the movie producer, etc etc.
At the very least their should be systems for complaints, with the expectation that you are kept anonymous where possible. Maybe we should give the AFLPA something to do.

If you went and asked my ex-wife if she had any grievances with my previous or current employers I'm sure her point of view would be different to mine. Its useless to speculate on the allegations until they've been investigated.
 
It’s become apparent that based on the information available, the allegations will be found unsubstantiated. The findings from the investigation won’t use that type of language due to cultural & political sensitivities, & not to upset or undermine anyone interviewed during the investigation. Meanwhile, clubs, coaches & the AFL are quietly moving forward while the process that already has a conclusion continues. What a complete waste of time.
Innocent until proven guilty I guess. Should make note of it for next time someone gets called a racist for not immediately believing a story.
 

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It’s become apparent that based on the information available, the allegations will be found unsubstantiated. The findings from the investigation won’t use that type of language due to cultural & political sensitivities, & not to upset or undermine anyone interviewed during the investigation. Meanwhile, clubs, coaches & the AFL are quietly moving forward while the process that already has a conclusion continues. What a complete waste of time.

Was apparent when this was court of media that the AFL would pucker up and cover arse. When have they actually lead a charge, I mean, they kicked and screamed to even have the AFLPA as a thing as why do we need to agree with a player entity, can't we just continue to exploit as it works oh so well for us? People need to get it in heads that they are a self serving entity who only cares for money, it's the bees below them that allow the game to have some semblance of governance which is part the reason why services provided get broken almost every week, contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on and you can carry druggos a serial abusers for decades with no one batting an eye until Benny boy runs away from cops as white line fever!

If the Commission gave one iota of shit to integrity of their org, they'd have copped Essendon as a GCS or GWS and got them the F out of Vic for what they did to those people in that org. As if you wanted to be seen as a professional org who gave a damn about doping and fairplay, you don't carry an entity that pissed on it then set it on fire and celebrate their existence in that form. Cop that hit and move to something better.

Instead, shit is as shit does, everything just gets covered in shit in the end.
 
I'd suggest that the coach should not be in charge of "managing the welfare" of players.
Neither should a production manager, or a site foreman, or the movie producer, etc etc.
At the very least their should be systems for complaints, with the expectation that you are kept anonymous where possible. Maybe we should give the AFLPA something to do.

If you went and asked my ex-wife if she had any grievances with my previous or current employers I'm sure her point of view would be different to mine. Its useless to speculate on the allegations until they've been investigated.
So my starting point is the assumption that the allegations are correct and true. Based on a couple of different people corroborating the stories. Should the be proven to be wrong or misunderstood etc. then of course he should not be punished. We can probably stop doing the "if proven" stuff based on that. If hes shown to have not done it etc. Then ill be first to apologise.

Tweak the wording (bit semantics but fair enough) but on what planet is a coach not involved in the welfare of the players? More to the point if Clarko has done what hes alleged to have done who could have better managed their welfare? If he put to players that the needed to what he said or they wouldnt play what does a welfare manager do?
 
So my starting point is the assumption that the allegations are correct and true. Based on a couple of different people corroborating the stories. Should the be proven to be wrong or misunderstood etc. then of course he should not be punished. We can probably stop doing the "if proven" stuff based on that. If hes shown to have not done it etc. Then ill be first to apologise.

Tweak the wording (bit semantics but fair enough) but on what planet is a coach not involved in the welfare of the players? More to the point if Clarko has done what hes alleged to have done who could have better managed their welfare? If he put to players that the needed to what he said or they wouldnt play what does a welfare manager do?
Its an absolute s***show all round for everyone involved.

I have no doubt that there is some substance to the allegations but I don't think its fair to then influence the process by attempting to pick and choose the way the allegations are investigated.

If the parties don't want to be involved in the AFL investigation because of their concerns of its cultural sensitivities, processes and independence that's fine but they (and no one else either) can then claim that Clarkson, Fagan are in any way guilty and should be stood down indefinitely.

There are a variety of legal options the claimants can follow if they don't accept the AFL process but unfortunately all of those options will involve the allegations being fully tested and that won't be pretty for anybody involved in the process.
 
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Its an absolute s***show all round for everyone involved.

I have no doubt that there is some substance to the allegations but I don't think its fair to then influence the process by attempting to pick and choose the way the allegations are investigated.

If the parties don't want to be involved in the AFL investigation because of their concerns of its cultural sensitivities, processes and independence that's fine but they (and no one else either) can then claim that Clarkson, Fagan are in any way guilty and should be stood down indefinitely.

There are a variety of legal options the claimants can follow if they don't accept the AFL process but unfortunately all of those options will involve the allegations being fully tested and that won't be pretty for anybody involved in the process.
Yeh I’d agree with all of that.

Ultimately it seemed very very clear from the start that Clarko and co were never going to face any real sanctions. Given the conflicts that exist and the way the Afl positioned itself and the clubs I don’t blame the complainants for not wanting to be involved and as you rightly say, can’t sanction them without that.

My initial point was more around the idea that if the claims were proven that Clarkson shouldn’t face any punishment, he absolutely should.
 
Important to remember that this was not initiated by those making the complaints.

The fact that they made disclosures in a review initiated by Hawthorn, doesn't mean that they want/need/should go through a trial like process. I can imagine that it could be a bit grueling so can understand. Though I see the other side to it obviously.

Sounds like it will be a shit outcome for all involved.

Also, important to remember that they didn't just make the allegations to get a claim from Hawthorn. They were asked and shared their experiences. I imagine that there would be some truth to it all. It seems like we will never really know.
 
Billings is a good player but is vanilla. The day Carlisle cucked Murphy, Billings had 30 and kicked 5 and I hardly noticed him.

He suffers twofold.

1) Taken before Bont. Not his fault and as it stood at the time was a reasonable decision.

2) The expectations of the success starved Saints supporters.

We as supporters look at the immediate. If we look at the likes of DMAC or Wood we see how a player can show their ability with a good run of injuries ( although DMAC got injured again). Wilkie is another who with consistent games was almost AA.

A good run with injuries and Lenny in his corner gives me hope Billings can be a significant contributor. I don't expect Billings to be a superstar, but his ability hasn't disappeared and would love him to get back to good consistent football.
The problem with Billing is that he is now a safety first HFF, when he is up the ground, always just choose the safe option and chip side ways, does not take the game on, or even try to make things happen by have a shot or try to set up fellow forwards.

This is a general problem across the team under Richo/Ratts. We play to avoid mistakes, which is impossible unless you just become ultra safe and boring.. even your forwards play like defenders.. just chase and tackle, no intent to kick goals unless it’s a certainty.
 
The problem with Billing is that he is now a safety first HFF, when he is up the ground, always just choose the safe option and chip side ways, does not take the game on, or even try to make things happen by have a shot or try to set up fellow forwards.

This is a general problem across the team under Richo/Ratts. We play to avoid mistakes, which is impossible unless you just become ultra safe and boring.. even your forwards play like defenders.. just chase and tackle, no intent to kick goals unless it’s a certainty.
 
The problem with Billing is that he is now a safety first HFF, when he is up the ground, always just choose the safe option and chip side ways, does not take the game on, or even try to make things happen by have a shot or try to set up fellow forwards.

This is a general problem across the team under Richo/Ratts. We play to avoid mistakes, which is impossible unless you just become ultra safe and boring.. even your forwards play like defenders.. just chase and tackle, no intent to kick goals unless it’s a certainty.


He's not a creative type and looks very anxious. I think a good coach would have created an environment where he could have very clear roles given to him and soared. I have a feeling that Lyon will make or break Billings. He goes on the scrap heap like Fiora or he becomes a star attacking high HF type.
 

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The gift that keeps on giving!

So….
To all you smarter people and legal eagles out there, is a successful unfair dismissal claim by the CEO
included in the Soft Cap?

Hope he sues for 20 million and Heppell has to be captain coach.
 
The gift that keeps on giving!

So….
To all you smarter people and legal eagles out there, is a successful unfair dismissal claim by the CEO
included in the Soft Cap?

🤞🤞🤞🤞


He stepped down which even if pressured surely has to go against any claim. Maybe at that point it could be religious discrimination rather than employment law. They probably settle out of court and he gets $200k to **** off though rather than it being a serious claim. Just a way to pressure them into paying him to go away.
 
Innocent until proven guilty I guess. Should make note of it for next time someone gets called a racist for not immediately believing a story.


Interesting out of all this the concern is about anyone being called a racist not racism.

Who was called a racist.?
 
Interesting out of all this the concern is about anyone being called a racist not racism.

Who was called a racist.?
I'm speaking from personal experience but also just speaking more broadly. It's as if nobody can question allegations of racism anymore. That's an odd position to take given there's an investigation ongoing. Was it actually racism? A few here made a reasonable point about it not being the case and I think it's interesting that both coaches have returned to their positions shortly after the investigation was conducted.

I think it's a massive concern that issues cannot be discussed without insinuations or remarks that someone is a racist because they question it. That's a huge issue, we should be able to discuss without the need for that. Who knows if it's happened here but there's the possibility that this story was blown out of proportion for one side to gain from. I think the fact that both coaches returned so quickly speaks to that. I wonder why they have returned to positions that seemed untenable a month ago. Don't you think that's odd if what they are alleged to have done was true?

I think it's regressive behaviour to not question allegations of racism as it is regressive to not hold people to account for partaking in racism.

For what it's worth I believed them at the beginning but the events that have followed have left me confused - if Clarkson is going around telling indigenous footballers and their partners to abort their children and leave their families then why is he suddenly back at the club? It doesn't make any sense, so what actually happened?
 
I'm speaking from personal experience but also just speaking more broadly. It's as if nobody can question allegations of racism anymore. That's an odd position to take given there's an investigation ongoing. Was it actually racism? A few here made a reasonable point about it not being the case and I think it's interesting that both coaches have returned to their positions shortly after the investigation was conducted.

I think it's a massive concern that issues cannot be discussed without insinuations or remarks that someone is a racist because they question it. That's a huge issue, we should be able to discuss without the need for that. Who knows if it's happened here but there's the possibility that this story was blown out of proportion for one side to gain from. I think the fact that both coaches returned so quickly speaks to that. I wonder why they have returned to positions that seemed untenable a month ago. Don't you think that's odd if what they are alleged to have done was true?

I think it's regressive behaviour to not question allegations of racism as it is regressive to not hold people to account for partaking in racism.

For what it's worth I believed them at the beginning but the events that have followed have left me confused - if Clarkson is going around telling indigenous footballers and their partners to abort their children and leave their families then why is he suddenly back at the club? It doesn't make any sense, so what actually happened?
My read of the situation is the complaints are vexatious & lack credibility. Quite rightfully the AFL is treading very carefully given the social & cultural issues at play. It is an overly defensive strategy but in this day & age it has to be done this way.
 
I'm speaking from personal experience but also just speaking more broadly. It's as if nobody can question allegations of racism anymore. That's an odd position to take given there's an investigation ongoing. Was it actually racism? A few here made a reasonable point about it not being the case and I think it's interesting that both coaches have returned to their positions shortly after the investigation was conducted.

I think it's a massive concern that issues cannot be discussed without insinuations or remarks that someone is a racist because they question it. That's a huge issue, we should be able to discuss without the need for that. Who knows if it's happened here but there's the possibility that this story was blown out of proportion for one side to gain from. I think the fact that both coaches returned so quickly speaks to that. I wonder why they have returned to positions that seemed untenable a month ago. Don't you think that's odd if what they are alleged to have done was true?

I think it's regressive behaviour to not question allegations of racism as it is regressive to not hold people to account for partaking in racism.

For what it's worth I believed them at the beginning but the events that have followed have left me confused - if Clarkson is going around telling indigenous footballers and their partners to abort their children and leave their families then why is he suddenly back at the club? It doesn't make any sense, so what actually happened?


Who was called a racist?

Pathetic position - poor ol me someone called me a racist.

Who was called a racist????
 
My read of the situation is the complaints are vexatious & lack credibility. Quite rightfully the AFL is treading very carefully given the social & cultural issues at play. It is an overly defensive strategy but in this day & age it has to be done this way.

He's had a decent record with indigenous players but you'd think that there were some issues in the club for both who I assume is Anderson and Rioli to have both walked away from the club with a really bad impression. Perhaps he's just a hard campaigner and those guys couldn't stomach it because of past trauma or other issues in their past. Often with time stories gain momentum and what started off as a bad story becomes a straight out horror story. Who knows.

It's a shame for both parties that it's not going to get a hearing. It's left unresolved at this stage.
 
My read of the situation is the complaints are vexatious & lack credibility. Quite rightfully the AFL is treading very carefully given the social & cultural issues at play. It is an overly defensive strategy but in this day & age it has to be done this way.
It's just not adding up, didn't they (the victims or someone associated with them) say when the story broke that other players had been through worse than what was posted in that initial story? Worse than the abortion and leaving families or something? Or that more players had experienced similar at least. If it is true, how can they both return to their jobs let alone return to the industry at all?

If there is a rampant issue of racism within the AFL and something like this becomes so public, I struggle to see how anyone can survive it. It's shithouse if it happens and doesn't get the coverage it deserves, because then I could understand the AFL just turning a blind eye to it or handling it in private. But this thing has had so much media coverage, everyone knows about it. I said at the time that if it's true it's the worst thing the AFL has ever had to deal with. But then a month or few weeks or however long it's been since they began the investigation, both of the accused racists are back. Bizarro stuff.
 
It's just not adding up, didn't they (the victims or someone associated with them) say when the story broke that other players had been through worse than what was posted in that initial story? Worse than the abortion and leaving families or something? Or that more players had experienced similar at least. If it is true, how can they both return to their jobs let alone return to the industry at all?

If there is a rampant issue of racism within the AFL and something like this becomes so public, I struggle to see how anyone can survive it. It's shithouse if it happens and doesn't get the coverage it deserves, because then I could understand the AFL just turning a blind eye to it or handling it in private. But this thing has had so much media coverage, everyone knows about it. I said at the time that if it's true it's the worst thing the AFL has ever had to deal with. But then a month or few weeks or however long it's been since they began the investigation, both of the accused racists are back. Bizarro stuff.

So no one was called a racist but that is the most important thing............
 
He's had a decent record with indigenous players but you'd think that there were some issues in the club for both who I assume is Anderson and Rioli to have both walked away from the club with a really bad impression. Perhaps he's just a hard campaigner and those guys couldn't stomach it because of past trauma or other issues in their past. Often with time stories gain momentum and what started off as a bad story becomes a straight out horror story. Who knows.

It's a shame for both parties that it's not going to get a hearing. It's left unresolved at this stage.
I was under the assumption that there would be a conclusion by end of year. Is that not happening anymore? Really interested to see what comes of it.
 
He's had a decent record with indigenous players but you'd think that there were some issues in the club for both who I assume is Anderson and Rioli to have both walked away from the club with a really bad impression. Perhaps he's just a hard campaigner and those guys couldn't stomach it because of past trauma or other issues in their past. Often with time stories gain momentum and what started off as a bad story becomes a straight out horror story. Who knows.

It's a shame for both parties that it's not going to get a hearing. It's left unresolved at this stage.
Yea maybe mate but I’m really not digging how the complainant (one in particular) is throwing grenades via the media without proper process or consequence. Absolutely kills a fair inquiry & in fact compromises her own credibility.
 

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Discussion 2022 General AFL Discussion

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