2022 Hawthorn List Management Discussion (including Trade, FA period)

[Dewnior]

Just watched the first half of the Easter Monday clash and it reminds me of what this team can become. Had Ned not injured his shoulder I reckon we may have won by 10 goals.

We really need Serong to step up and play the Gunston role next season. And we need Nash to study how Blicavs goes about it. If we can maintain consistency we'll take a few scalps next season.

 

[KermitJagger]

He averages more than one crack binge a season?

Wrong Cousins.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Just watched the first half of the Easter Monday clash and it reminds me of what this team can become. Had Ned not injured his shoulder I reckon we may have won by 10 goals.

We really need Serong to step up and play the Gunston role next season. And we need Nash to study how Blicavs goes about it. If we can maintain consistency we'll take a few scalps next season.

Reeves was absolutely dominating that game. It was a joy to watch.

 

[JZedd]

Just watched the first half of the Easter Monday clash and it reminds me of what this team can become. Had Ned not injured his shoulder I reckon we may have won by 10 goals.

We really need Serong to step up and play the Gunston role next season. And we need Nash to study how Blicavs goes about it. If we can maintain consistency we'll take a few scalps next season.

Hahahaha. I watched the full game yesterday. What a win. Yeah I agree with your take on Reeves. Fantastic watching our youngsters enjoy a win against the splats.

 

[Noel Gallagher]

Just watched the first half of the Easter Monday clash and it reminds me of what this team can become. Had Ned not injured his shoulder I reckon we may have won by 10 goals.

We really need Serong to step up and play the Gunston role next season. And we need Nash to study how Blicavs goes about it. If we can maintain consistency we'll take a few scalps next season.

Need to be patient with Serong, I think we have a player here but will take 3-4 years till he is ready. Nash is a completely different player to Blicavs who is an endurance beast who can play most positions really well. Nash's main asset is playing in the middle with some short spells up forward. Need to keep persisting with him there

 

[streetspirit]

Fergus Greene

26

Fergus Greene

Age

26

Ht

187cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.8

2star

K

5.4

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

3.0

5star

G

1.0

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.8

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

3.0

5star

G

1.0

4star

in the interim

 

[TheFourPillars]

There are no guarantees to the strategy that Sam has implemented but it is the best way forward.
The strategy could fail because the players we have and draft and trade in the next few years are just not good enough to compete for the prize and then unfortunately we would have to scrap everything and try again

 

[flinchfree]

There are no guarantees to the strategy that Sam has implemented but it is the best way forward.
The strategy could fail because the players we have and draft and trade in the next few years are just not good enough to compete for the prize and then unfortunately we would have to scrap everything and try again

I think you've got it backwards.
We'd have to scrap everything and try again if we had a bunch of 27-30 year olds that we were supplementing with some draft hopefuls and trade ins to carry us over the lip to ultimate success. You know, topping up.

Instead, we have a slew of 19-23 year olds that I think have at least 4-5 years to determine if they are the basis of the next challenge for the prize.
And some of those (read for eg Saunders) will get turned over themselves over the next 2-3 drafts with the least likely going away for new and more likely prospects.

The fact you are calling the players we have not good enough and the draft picks we've taken not good enough, and the kids we are planning to draft in the FUTURE not good enough, reads like complete mopesville.
Like you've given up already on our ability to scout and develop players.

Frankly, that's not the poster and Hawthorn person I thought you were.

 

[H00t]

I think you've got it backwards.
We'd have to scrap everything and try again if we had a bunch of 27-30 year olds that we were supplementing with some draft hopefuls and trade ins to carry us over the lip to ultimate success. You know, topping up.

Instead, we have a slew of 19-23 year olds that I think have at least 4-5 years to determine if they are the basis of the next challenge for the prize.
And some of those (read for eg Saunders) will get turned over themselves over the next 2-3 drafts with the least likely going away for new and more likely prospects.

The fact you are calling the players we have not good enough and the draft picks we've taken not good enough, and the kids we are planning to draft in the FUTURE not good enough, reads like complete mopesville.
Like you've given up already on our ability to scout and develop players.

Frankly, that's not the poster and Hawthorn person I thought you were.

You’ve had a go at TheFourPillars for acknowledging that there is a risk that this won’t come off and that we might not scale the heights we hope to.

After just acknowledging the very thing he said by saying that it’s now up to our young players to work out if they are good enough to win flags and if not they will get replaced.

I think you might want to give your post a rethink.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I think you've got it backwards.
We'd have to scrap everything and try again if we had a bunch of 27-30 year olds that we were supplementing with some draft hopefuls and trade ins to carry us over the lip to ultimate success. You know, topping up.

Instead, we have a slew of 19-23 year olds that I think have at least 4-5 years to determine if they are the basis of the next challenge for the prize.
And some of those (read for eg Saunders) will get turned over themselves over the next 2-3 drafts with the least likely going away for new and more likely prospects.

The fact you are calling the players we have not good enough and the draft picks we've taken not good enough, and the kids we are planning to draft in the FUTURE not good enough, reads like complete mopesville.
Like you've given up already on our ability to scout and develop players.

Frankly, that's not the poster and Hawthorn person I thought you were.

Lol mate I have not given up it is the worst-case scenario of the current path we are on, and it is of every rebuild done by every club. The fact is we need more elite talent and more game breakers. Going forward it will depend on how effective we are in obtaining this through development, trade and draft. We were thwarted in getting in players we wanted in the past. Every other club is trying to achieve the same thing.

 

[flinchfree]

You’ve had a go at TheFourPillars for acknowledging that there is a risk that this won’t come off and that we might not scale the heights we hope to.

After just acknowledging the very thing he said by saying that it’s now up to our young players to work out if they are good enough to win flags and if not they will get replaced.

I think you might want to give your post a rethink.

What are you talking about??????

The fact there is a risk?
Seriously, we're now talking risks.
A risk huh.
Like there's slam dunks in sports.
We could just not field a team I guess, then there's absolutely ZERO risk.

This is beyond dumb.

 

[flinchfree]

Lol mate I have not given up it is the worst-case scenario of the current path we are on, and it is of every rebuild done by every club. The fact is we need more elite talent and more game breakers. Going forward it will depend on how effective we are in obtaining this through development, trade and draft. We were thwarted in getting in players we wanted in the past. Every other club is trying to achieve the same thing.

So, you're saying it's sports, and there's no guarantees.

And this is somehow worth posting on Sam Mitchell and his direction for the Club?
Like, we can't be assured of success?
As in, the same exact position EVERY other team in EVERY other sport in ANY country in the world might be facing.
And that there are zero ways to expect otherwise.
Why exactly post the worst case scenario? That we should be braced and prepared for it?



Ok.
Wowsers.

Edit: Unless you have knowledge or reason to believe we are facing a GREATER chance of worst case scenario BECAUSE of Sam Mitchell leading the direction of the Club?
In which case, I would really love to be enlightened.

 

[H00t]

What are you talking about??????

The fact there is a risk?
Seriously, we're now talking risks.
A risk huh.
Like there's slam dunks in sports.
We could just not field a team I guess, then there's absolutely ZERO risk.

This is beyond dumb.

I was giving you a chance to rethink stepping way out of line and attacking someone both as a hawthorn supporter and poster.

But if you would like to double down… I can only imagine you will be on your own.

And all this over what was a pretty standard take.

 

[flinchfree]

I was giving you a chance to rethink stepping way out of line and attacking someone both as a hawthorn supporter and poster.

But if you would like to double down… I can only imagine you will be on your own.

And all this over what was a pretty standard take.

So very nice of you to arbiter my need to step away and reconsider my 'stepping out of line'.
I've noticed you do this a number of times on this forum.
Have you been made a moderator and it slipped my notice?
Or perhaps, you've just annointed yourself the forum poster to decide such matters.
Either way you can step off kindly yourself, and reconsider your sanctimony before returning and posting further on the matter.
Just a free piece of advice like you offered me.

 

[matey]

The King and Cornes discussion this morning continuing on Dwayne’s show right now. Hawks fan just called in and said you watch Kosi will kick 100 goals in 2024 season …… surely he meant Lewis . Give me 50 from Lewis would be happy

 

[TheFourPillars]

So, you're saying it's sports, and there's no guarantees.

And this is somehow worth posting on Sam Mitchell and his direction for the Club?
Like, we can't be assured of success?
As in, the same exact position EVERY other team in EVERY other sport in ANY country in the world might be facing.
And that there are zero ways to expect otherwise.
Why exactly post the worst case scenario? That we should be braced and prepared for it?



Ok.
Wowsers.

Edit: Unless you have knowledge or reason to believe we are facing a GREATER chance of worst case scenario BECAUSE of Sam Mitchell leading the direction of the Club?
In which case, I would really love to be enlightened.

No and seriously u don't need to defend Sam Mitchell mate. I am not attacking him or his methods or what direction he has taken the club. In fact, I said that it was the right decision in my first sentence. However, Sam is not the only person in this equation. It includes the whole club and list management and development. From the board down there seems to be some instability at the club at present. That needs to be sorted. All I was trying to say was it could potentially be a long journey.

 

[hawkman]

The King and Cornes discussion this morning continuing on Dwayne’s show right now. Hawks fan just called in and said you watch Kosi will kick 100 goals in 2024 season …… surely he meant Lewis . Give me 50 from Lewis would be happy

Was his name Dom?

 

[HawthornHawk]

The King and Cornes discussion this morning continuing on Dwayne’s show right now. Hawks fan just called in and said you watch Kosi will kick 100 goals in 2024 season …… surely he meant Lewis . Give me 50 from Lewis would be happy

I hope Kosi shows a few on this board what he's really made of next year the same way Lewis was able to once he had a good run at it.

Had an interrupted pre-season and was thrown in the ruck. He's still very young for a key forward

 

[flinchfree]

No and seriously u don't need to defend Sam Mitchell mate. I am not attacking him or his methods or what direction he has taken the club. In fact, I said that it was the right decision in my first sentence. However, Sam is not the only person in this equation. It includes the whole club and list management and development. From the board down there seems to be some instability at the club at present. That needs to be sorted. All I was trying to say was it could potentially be a long journey.

Agree to disagree. You didn't just say long journey, you pointedly said we haven't picked the right blokes coz we haven't had access to high picks, and described a journey of disaster.
In fact, you yourself described it as worst case scenario.
I labelled that out of nowhere post in a Sam Mitchell thread as mopey. I have no idea how anyone can't see that choosing to suggest the possibility of worst case scenario years before it could bear out as unnecessarily mope-ing.

And honestly, I have noted your less than tepid attitude towards Sam since early on, questioning at times his make up for the job because of who he seemed to be as a player, to whether that would translate to getting his ideas across to others, to whether he was actually doing anything different at Box Hill than what was being game day'd in the firsts under Clarko, to relentlessly describing outcomes that have failure as a distinct possibility we need to countenance. I have largely not engaged you on the tone and negativity, occasionally I find it hard not to. That's over the last few years, not just today. I accept it's on me to not get sucked in.
If you were less Hawthorn to the bone, it would affect me less.

I know you love Hawthorn.
I know you are around the joint, see what you see, and largely enjoy what you share on here.
I would say it is MY OPINION that you take unnecessary shots at the way forward, at the list, and again IMO - at Sam. ALOT of your opinion seems hedged with suspicion.
Like others have pointed out in other threads whether game day or post match analysis or simply generic threads, having posters feel the need to give 'worst case outcomes' that pose as 'realism' can just tire the heck out.

How about some backward evaluation? I reckon you shy from dinging Clarko et al and seem to leave those threads alone that bring up their shortcomings as they've been revealed.
I'd personally be much more interested in picking out what didn't work properly in the last 5 years so we don't replicate it, rather than condition ourselves unnecessarily for doom on what hasn't happened.

Personally, i think it's flat irresponsible to put the likelihood of success and everything required to achieve that on the draft number kids were drafted at to suggest their likely limitations.
If you want to be a successful Club year in year out, better get used to drafting at the bottom end of each round and having better teachers at your Club, better physical educators, better strategists to devise playing strategies that weight things in your favor, and better Club environment so that players are enthused to work and never want to leave.

Losers bet their future on the draft and continue to be disappointed in over valuing it.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Agree to disagree. You didn't just say long journey, you pointedly said we haven't picked the right blokes coz we haven't had access to high picks, and described a journey of disaster.
In fact, you yourself described it as worst case scenario.
I labelled that out of nowhere post in a Sam Mitchell thread as mopey. I have no idea how anyone can't see that choosing to suggest the possibility of worst case scenario years before it could bear out as unnecessarily mope-ing.

And honestly, I have noted your less than tepid attitude towards Sam since early on, questioning at times his make up for the job because of who he seemed to be as a player, to whether that would translate to getting his ideas across to others, to whether he was actually doing anything different at Box Hill than what was being game day'd in the firsts under Clarko, to relentlessly describing outcomes that have failure as a distinct possibility we need to countenance. I have largely not engaged you on the tone and negativity, occasionally I find it hard not to. That's over the last few years, not just today. I accept it's on me to not get sucked in.
If you were less Hawthorn to the bone, it would affect me less.

I know you love Hawthorn.
I know you are around the joint, see what you see, and largely enjoy what you share on here.
I would say it is MY OPINION that you take unnecessary shots at the way forward, at the list, and again IMO - at Sam. ALOT of your opinion seems hedged with suspicion.
Like others have pointed out in other threads whether game day or post match analysis or simply generic threads, having posters feel the need to give 'worst case outcomes' that pose as 'realism' can just tire the heck out.

How about some backward evaluation? I reckon you shy from dinging Clarko et al and seem to leave those threads alone that bring up their shortcomings as they've been revealed.
I'd personally be much more interested in picking out what didn't work properly in the last 5 years so we don't replicate it, rather than condition ourselves unnecessarily for doom on what hasn't happened.

Personally, i think it's flat irresponsible to put the likelihood of success and everything required to achieve that on the draft number kids were drafted at to suggest their likely limitations.
If you want to be a successful Club year in year out, better get used to drafting at the bottom end of each round and having better teachers at your Club, better physical educators, better strategists to devise playing strategies that weight things in your favor, and better Club environment so that players are enthused to work and never want to leave.

Losers bet their future on the draft and continue to be disappointed in over valuing it.

Mate - you know I mean you zero ill will - but you are doubling down hard on a complete misread of a post.

Here is TFP's original post, verbatim, which he has clearly not edited, take in the bolded statements:

There are no guarantees to the strategy that Sam has implemented but it is the best way forward.​

The strategy could fail because the players we have and draft and trade in the next few years are just not good enough to compete for the prize and then unfortunately we would have to scrap everything and try again.​

He has said it is a high risk strategy, but it is the right strategy. He has just then highlighted why it is high risk because the players we draft and bring in may not come on like you hope. Nothing in there is a dig at Sam, our present players or the club. It's just a fairly obvious statement about our strategy at present.

 

[flinchfree]

Mate - you know I mean you zero ill will - but you are doubling down hard on a complete misread of a post.

Here is TFP's original post, verbatim, which he has clearly not edited, take in the bolded statements:

There are no guarantees to the strategy that Sam has implemented but it is the best way forward.​

The strategy could fail because the players we have and draft and trade in the next few years are just not good enough to compete for the prize and then unfortunately we would have to scrap everything and try again.​

He has said it is a high risk strategy, but it is the right strategy. He has just then highlighted why it is high risk because the players we draft and bring in may not come on like you hope. Nothing in there is a dig at Sam, our present players or the club. It's just a fairly obvious statement about our strategy at present.

I get what you've typed.
If it were a one off, I would have kept driving.

Here is what I posted verbatim to 4P's post:

"We'd have to scrap everything and try again if we had a bunch of 27-30 year olds that we were supplementing with some draft hopefuls and trade ins to carry us over the lip to ultimate success. You know, topping up.

Instead, we have a slew of 19-23 year olds that I think have at least 4-5 years to determine if they are the basis of the next challenge for the prize.
And some of those (read for eg Saunders) will get turned over themselves over the next 2-3 drafts with the least likely going away for new and more likely prospect"

To the tenor and need to post what seems obvious, maybe read my last post.
It's not a one off.
If you disagree, that's fine.
I don't mind posters disagreeing with me, you did when I suggested 4-5 years ago that Kennett was bad for Hawthorn and we move on.
You disagreed strongly again with me when I suggested pre season and then post season that Impey has not been in the kind of shape required to deliver to Hawthorn what I would have expected. That's fine.
I thought losing Audi at the time and the difficulty of replacing that sponsorship a sign of problems at the Club. You thought it a trifle. That was fine too that you disagreed.
I don't mind others having a different opinion to mine.

You don't mind 4P's post, that's fine.
I reckon it was but a recent piece of copy in a storyline that he's been filing a long long time.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure he HAS edited it.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I get what you've typed.
If it were a one off, I would have kept driving.

Here is what I posted verbatim to 4P's post:

"We'd have to scrap everything and try again if we had a bunch of 27-30 year olds that we were supplementing with some draft hopefuls and trade ins to carry us over the lip to ultimate success. You know, topping up.

Instead, we have a slew of 19-23 year olds that I think have at least 4-5 years to determine if they are the basis of the next challenge for the prize.
And some of those (read for eg Saunders) will get turned over themselves over the next 2-3 drafts with the least likely going away for new and more likely prospect"

To the tenor and need to post what seems obvious, maybe read my last post.
It's not a one off.
If you disagree, that's fine.
I don't mind posters disagreeing with me, you did when I suggested 4-5 years ago that Kennett was bad for Hawthorn and we move on.
You disagreed strongly again with me when I suggested pre season and then post season that Impey has not been in the kind of shape required to deliver to Hawthorn what I would have expected. That's fine.
I thought losing Audi at the time and the difficulty of replacing that sponsorship a sign of problems at the Club. You thought it a trifle. That was fine too that you disagreed.
I don't mind others having a different opinion to mine.

You don't mind 4P's post, that's fine.
I reckon it was but a recent piece of copy in a storyline that he's been filing a long long time.

Impressive memory - and we have extended with Nissan now so hey not all is lost. I still think it was beyond unfair to judge Impey's form this year when he was playing with loose screws in his foot.

I agree we have a slew of 19-23 year olds - however again TFP has said if we find that these players and the ones we bring in over the coming years can't get the job done then we have to start again. It doesn't matter that the 19-23 year olds aren't in their prime years - if we get to 3 years down the track, our draftees are mostly busts and our now 23-26 year olds are a bit meh then TFP's point still remains.

I haven't been as forensic on their recent posting history so I will take your word on it - however the originating post I found to be a fairly non-controversial statement that allowed for the fact that the opposite of that scenario was also distinctly possible.

 

[Brishawk]

I get what you've typed.
If it were a one off, I would have kept driving.

Here is what I posted verbatim to 4P's post:

"We'd have to scrap everything and try again if we had a bunch of 27-30 year olds that we were supplementing with some draft hopefuls and trade ins to carry us over the lip to ultimate success. You know, topping up.

Instead, we have a slew of 19-23 year olds that I think have at least 4-5 years to determine if they are the basis of the next challenge for the prize.
And some of those (read for eg Saunders) will get turned over themselves over the next 2-3 drafts with the least likely going away for new and more likely prospect"

To the tenor and need to post what seems obvious, maybe read my last post.
It's not a one off.
If you disagree, that's fine.
I don't mind posters disagreeing with me, you did when I suggested 4-5 years ago that Kennett was bad for Hawthorn and we move on.
You disagreed strongly again with me when I suggested pre season and then post season that Impey has not been in the kind of shape required to deliver to Hawthorn what I would have expected. That's fine.
I thought losing Audi at the time and the difficulty of replacing that sponsorship a sign of problems at the Club. You thought it a trifle. That was fine too that you disagreed.
I don't mind others having a different opinion to mine.

You don't mind 4P's post, that's fine.
I reckon it was but a recent piece of copy in a storyline that he's been filing a long long time.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure he HAS edited it.

Sam’s strategy is not a proven, well worn approach to renewing a list and developing premiership caliber players. This board can only identify one other club that has tried this and been decent for a period of time (freo) and that didn’t end up in a flag. So yeah, this is a risky approach and I’m not sure why you have such an issue with people acknowledging that fact.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Sam’s strategy is not a proven, well worn approach to renewing a list and developing premiership caliber players. This board can only identify one other club that has tried this and been decent for a period of time (freo) and that didn’t end up in a flag. So yeah, this is a risky approach and I’m not sure why you have such an issue with people acknowledging that fact.

Brisbane did it as well - also did not result in a flag but a string of top 4 finishes. But yes - low success rate in the near term.

 

[flinchfree]

Sam’s strategy is not a proven, well worn approach to renewing a list and developing premiership caliber players. This board can only identify one other club that has tried this and been decent for a period of time (freo) and that didn’t end up in a flag. So yeah, this is a risky approach and I’m not sure why you have such an issue with people acknowledging that fact.

Melbourne? Footscray?
Both culled incessantly while they bottomed out and replenished with draft picks.
Which crop of mature players did they keep while rebuilding?