2022 Hawthorn List Management Discussion (including Trade, FA period)

[TheFourPillars]

I get what you've typed.
If it were a one off, I would have kept driving.

Here is what I posted verbatim to 4P's post:

"We'd have to scrap everything and try again if we had a bunch of 27-30 year olds that we were supplementing with some draft hopefuls and trade ins to carry us over the lip to ultimate success. You know, topping up.

Instead, we have a slew of 19-23 year olds that I think have at least 4-5 years to determine if they are the basis of the next challenge for the prize.
And some of those (read for eg Saunders) will get turned over themselves over the next 2-3 drafts with the least likely going away for new and more likely prospect"

To the tenor and need to post what seems obvious, maybe read my last post.
It's not a one off.
If you disagree, that's fine.
I don't mind posters disagreeing with me, you did when I suggested 4-5 years ago that Kennett was bad for Hawthorn and we move on.
You disagreed strongly again with me when I suggested pre season and then post season that Impey has not been in the kind of shape required to deliver to Hawthorn what I would have expected. That's fine.
I thought losing Audi at the time and the difficulty of replacing that sponsorship a sign of problems at the Club. You thought it a trifle. That was fine too that you disagreed.
I don't mind others having a different opinion to mine.

You don't mind 4P's post, that's fine.
I reckon it was but a recent piece of copy in a storyline that he's been filing a long long time.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure he HAS edited it.

Are u suggesting I have some sort of agenda against Sam? Why would I? Sam is the coach of Hawthorn. He has done a wonderful job in refreshing the place. He speaks well about football and has a great grasp of the modern game. The young players seem to have a direction and motivation to train and play for him. I say this having witnessed the change over the season. There is no agenda and what I said was it was quite clear currently we needed an influx of talent and that doing rebuilds like these can take a while depending on what happens off field including drafting, trades and free agents. I am not sure what you're getting at.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Melbourne? Footscray?
Both culled incessantly while they bottomed out and replenished with draft picks.
Which crop of mature players did they keep while rebuilding?

Bulldogs never went the full rebuild like this - always had a crop of senior players still there. Melbourne went fairly deep but still had a few players over 30 also as well as late 20s. Sicily is our 4th oldest player next year.

Actually Melbourne did have a year similar - 2011 they had a single player aged 30, a player aged 28 then the rest were 27 and under. They were 10 years away from a flag - so doesn't help your point.

 

[flinchfree]

Further, I would suggest that the strategy to replace players who couldn't get it done, with the possibility that new ones might, is hardly a choice.
You know you can't win with certain players, they've proved it. Why would you stay that route?

We had no choice with Gunners. He walked even though we wanted him to stay.
McEvoy couldn't go anymore, nothing to do there.
Phillips? Howe? They're JAGS who can be replaced with zero significant difference with the chance the replacement might actually be better.

So assuming those above fellas left, are you saying that Tom Mitchell and Jaeger would have ushered in more success by 'transitioning' our younger players with the final years of their playing days?
Personally would have been happy for JOM to stay, but don't think it would have made an iota of difference to our playing chances on game day.
Tom, while a really good player, did not make those around him better.

If the stance is, we had no choice because this is how it fell for us, and there's the distinct possibility it doesn't work out....
Sure.
But that's hardly revelatory, and what does it add to the discussion to say it?
So one can say 'see I was right'? To prepare everyone for failure?
I just don't get it.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Further, I would suggest that the strategy to replace players who couldn't get it done, with the possibility that new ones might, is hardly a choice.
You know you can't win with certain players, they've proved it. Why would you stay that route?

Well it was a choice we were going to make if we persisted being the Clarko Football Club. I am fairly certain if he had remained coach then you would see Mitchell and O'Meara lining up in our midfield in round 1 2023.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Melbourne? Footscray?
Both culled incessantly while they bottomed out and replenished with draft picks.
Which crop of mature players did they keep while rebuilding?

If we are going down this path. The bulldogs had quite a few senior players 25 and over sprinkled in with their youngens
30+ Murphy, Boyd, Morris, Minson, Adcock,
29 Picken
28 Dickson
27 Suckling, Crameri
26 Wood
25 Roughead
25 Redpath

Not all them played in the grand final but all of them played a part in the season that won them the premiership.

Every team needs experience to win premierships. There is a balance. We have got Amon in as an experienced player and we will target more experience as we continue with our build.

 

[TheFourPillars]

To be honest i have lost my appetite for this discussion carry on

 

[flinchfree]

Are u suggesting I have some sort of agenda against Sam? Why would I? Sam is the coach of Hawthorn. He has done a wonderful job in refreshing the place. He speaks well about football and has a great grasp of the modern game. The young players seem to have a direction and motivation to train and play for him. I say this having witnessed the change over the season. There is no agenda and what I said was it was quite clear currently we needed an influx of talent and that doing rebuilds like these can take a while depending on what happens off field including drafting, trades and free agents. I am not sure what you're getting at.

I'm suggesting exactly what I typed.
If none of it rings bells for you, I can't do more.

We get an influx of players every year. From the draft, from trading, from free agency.
If it doesn't work out IMO it's on the coaches and the Club. Not the draft pick number of the player. Not because of some ridiculous supposition that our List manager needs nodoze or isn't hungry enough to risk and make things happen.
I'll wait and judge them after a few seasons, it shouldn't be hard to see if the Club is not just climbing the ladder but becoming a consistent winner.
Until then, I'm predicting success.
I'm a supporter.

 

[flinchfree]

If we are going down this path. The bulldogs had quite a few senior players 25 and over sprinkled in with their youngens
30+ Murphy, Boyd, Morris, Minson, Adcock,
29 Picken
28 Dickson
27 Suckling, Crameri
26 Wood
25 Roughead
25 Redpath

Not all them played in the grand final but all of them played a part in the season that won them the premiership.

Every team needs experience to win premierships. There is a balance. We have got Amon in as an experienced player and we will target more experience as we continue with our build.

And how old were those players when the Bullies were drafting the Bont and the father sons etc to begin the journey that ended with the Cup?
4-5 years younger right?
So, mid 20's when the hard drafting happened.

 

[Brishawk]

Brisbane did it as well - also did not result in a flag but a string of top 4 finishes. But yes - low success rate in the near term.

Brisbane didn’t actively trade out their senior leaders. Their older players were either garbage or retired. It was the middle to young established players that left and they had a whole in their list. Bottomed out after wise in about 2015/16 and it was only once they started backfilling that age group with trades that they came up the ladder.

Neale, lyons, Adam’s (when fit), McCarthy, Daniher, cameron all 27+ and among their best players. Robinson and cam Ellis-yolman also a in that age and recruit to fill a gap (obviously only Robinson could be considered best 22 prior to 2022).

Only players older than cameron not traded in are fort (mature age ruck), rich, Lester and Zorko Zorko. Should have had guys like yeo and docherty being senior players for them. Maybe would have won a flag.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I'm suggesting exactly what I typed.
If none of it rings bells for you, I can't do more.

We get an influx of players every year. From the draft, from trading, from free agency.
If it doesn't work out IMO it's on the coaches and the Club. Not the draft pick number of the player. Not because of some ridiculous supposition that our List manager needs nodoze or isn't hungry enough to risk and make things happen.
I'll wait and judge them after a few seasons, it shouldn't be hard to see if the Club is not just climbing the ladder but becoming a consistent winner.
Until then, I'm predicting success.
I'm a supporter.

Ok so you are suggesting that I have an agenda well I cannot be bothered arguing with you about this. By the way good for you mate because we need supporters and I am also a supporter. I love Hawthorn always will

 

[Brishawk]

And how old were those players when the Bullies were drafting the Bont and the father sons etc to begin the journey that ended with the Cup?
4-5 years younger right?
So, mid 20's when the hard drafting happened.

Wrong. Bont drafted 2013. Dogs 2014 playing list had 5 30 plus players on it. Who better to teach the young players? They took three of those through to their 2016 premiership list. Minson was also still on the list.

 

[flinchfree]

Brisbane didn’t actively trade out their senior leaders. Their older players were either garbage or retired. It was the middle to young established players that left and they had a whole in their list. Bottomed out after wise in about 2015/16 and it was only once they started backfilling that age group with trades that they came up the ladder.

Neale, lyons, Adam’s (when fit), McCarthy, Daniher, cameron all 27+ and among their best players. Robinson and cam Ellis-yolman also a in that age and recruit to fill a gap (obviously only Robinson could be considered best 22 prior to 2022).

Only players older than cameron not traded in are fort (mature age ruck), rich, Lester and Zorko Zorko. Should have had guys like yeo and docherty being senior players for them. Maybe would have won a flag.

Not disagreeing with the above.
I think some seem to believe we'll be running out with a team of 18-22 year olds next year.

Some very likely regulars for our team in 2023, their age as of r1:

Harry Morrison 24 years old
Mitch Lewis 24 years old
Jarman Impey 27 years old
James Worpel 24 years old
Jack Scrimshaw 24 years old
James Sicily 28 years old
CJ 23 years old
Luke Breust 32 years old
Blake Hardwick 26 years old
Connor Nash 24 years old
Dylan Moore 23 years old
Bramble 24 years old
Chad Wingard 29 years old
Maginness 22 years old
Sam Frost 29 years old
Blanck 22 years old
Reeves 24 years old


These aren't kids anymore, they should be absolutely getting their thing on in their prime physical years.

Yes, we have a young list overall.
And if we were trying to preserve a winning style of football and culture eg the Catters, then keeping 27-30 year olds on the list to manage a transition would make a lot of sense.

But we're trying to build something anew.
To be honest, I reckon it's the youngest on the list - not those above mentioned - who are likely to take us there with dare, confidence, skill, and ambition.
And the above who will be the frame rails the new engine gets attached to.

 

[flinchfree]

Wrong. Bont drafted 2013. Dogs 2014 playing list had 5 30 plus players on it. Who better to teach the young players? They took three of those through to their 2016 premiership list. Minson was also still on the list.
View attachment 1540582

Well, I guess if you are only taking the three years before the premiership in terms of drafting and centered only on Bont, but I'd suggest they had started far earlier.
Liam Picken in 2008 rookie draft, Jordan Roughhead in 2009, Mitch Wallis and Tom Liberatore in 2010, Luke Dalhaus in the 2011 rookie draft, Johannisen in that same 2011 rookie draft etc were all part of a major rebuild and drafting excercise that eventually lead to where they got.

 

[Steven Tyler]

I get what you've typed.
If it were a one off, I would have kept driving.

You’re driving and reading and typing?

Damn








Just trying to lighten the mood in here

 

[tommyk72]

To be honest i have lost my appetite for this discussion carry on

Good. Please save your fingers for your brilliant training/game reports. Not in continuing to fight some weird battle with a numbskull who has decided to take an issue with a completely reasonable post.

 

[Brishawk]

Well, I guess if you are only taking the three years before the premiership in terms of drafting and centered only on Bont, but I'd suggest they had started far earlier.
Liam Picken in 2008 rookie draft, Jordan Roughhead in 2009, Mitch Wallis and Tom Liberatore in 2010, Luke Dalhaus in the 2011 rookie draft, Johannisen in that same 2011 rookie draft etc were all part of a major rebuild and drafting excercise that eventually lead to where they got.

You specifically mentioned the bont.
Number of 29+ players
2008 6
2009 5
2010 5
2011 7
2012 8
2013 6
2014 6
2015 5
2016 6
If anything, they retained more older players through the early days of recruiting some of those players and kept it level at around 6 for most of that whole period.

 

[flinchfree]

You specifically mentioned the bont.
Number of 29+ players
2008 6
2009 5
2010 5
2011 7
2012 8
2013 6
2014 6
2015 5
2016 6
If anything, they retained more older players through the early days of recruiting some of those players and kept it level at around 6 for most of that whole period.

I guess you missed some of my post. Which was unedited. And said Bont, AND some of the father sons etc.
If, as I suspect, we're 4+ years away from being a CHANCE at winning a cup, then we will have a number of players moving into that same age group from our current list, and possibly land some others who will join as free agents if we are looking like a really promising chance at the medal.

I don't see a big woop difference between having 27 year olds on your list and 29+, but sure if that is some key indicator I guess we are doomed.
Oh well.

 

[Brishawk]

I guess you missed some of my post. Which was unedited. And said Bont, AND some of the father sons etc.
If, as I suspect, we're 4+ years away from being a CHANCE at winning a cup, then we will have a number of players moving into that same age group from our current list, and possibly land some others who will join as free agents if we are looking like a really promising chance at the medal.

I don't see a big woop difference between having 27 year olds on your list and 29+, but sure if that is some key indicator I guess we are doomed.
Oh well.

Quit the gaslighting. You made bullshit arguments that don’t align with historical facts. It’s the experience and leadership that we have cast away as I said in my first response. The dogs are quite obviously not an example of a team that traded away its best players or it’s experience players to fast track youth in the way Sam has. Anything else you want to say on this topic, you will have to take it up with others as you clearly are not interested in facts and just want to keep telling everyone that this is the proven path to success when it isn’t. Doesn’t mean it won’t work but it is seldom done.

 

[flinchfree]

Quit the gaslighting. You made bullshit arguments that don’t align with historical facts. It’s the experience and leadership that we have cast away as I said in my first response. The dogs are quite obviously not an example of a team that eased away its best players or it’s experience players to fast track youth in the way Sam has. Anything else you want to say on this topic, you will have to take it up with others as you clearly are not interested in facts and just want to keep telling everyone that this is the proven path to success when it isn’t. Doesn’t mean it won’t work but it is seldom done.

You're a ripper, your mum must be proud.
It's a lucky forum indeed to have you as the provider of facts and determiner of what my statements suggest, never mind asking....
Keep up the form, it's never far from the surface in your posting.

 

[flinchfree]

........ The dogs are quite obviously not an example of a team that traded away its best players or it’s experience players to fast track youth in the way Sam has. Anything else you want to say on this topic, you will have to take it up with others as you clearly are not interested in facts and just want to keep telling everyone that this is the proven path to success when it isn’t. Doesn’t mean it won’t work but it is seldom done.

2006 Doggies 5th oldest list
2007 Doggies 5th oldest list
2008 Doggies 7th oldest list
2009 Doggies 4th oldest list
2010 Doggies oldest list
2011 Doggies 4th oldest list
2012 Doggies 6th oldest list
2013 Doggies 12th oldest list
2014 Doggies 10th oldest list
2015 Doggies 15th oldest list
2016 Doggies 13th oldest list
2017 Doggies 14th oldest list
2018 Doggies 12th oldest list

Of course, these facts I'm gaslighting you with are sure to be difficult for you to accept. I'm sure you'll find a way to change the argument to one you wish to thrash me with, so I will wait patiently.

What's weird is that it's you who has fashioned the argument, even though I had only responded that the list cull we have engaged upon was not by choice but by necessity.
The one player we would have kept wanted to go, the others either retired, weren't up to it, or hadn't shown exposed form over 4-5 years of bringing winning football to our Club.

I've never said this move to turning over the list strongly was a proven path to success.
I said, the Bullies did it, as did Melbourne.
Again, for one who doesn't like others to create strawman arguments you sure are adept at it yourself.

My quibble was with 4P feeling it necessary to proclaim what might happen in a worse case scenario if it all goes balls up.
That it was mopey.

But you sure found a way to come to the party hard with the biggest mope outburst possible.

 

[PenAndPaper]

How did this thread become this from such an innocuous comment?

 

[flinchfree]

How did this thread become this from such an innocuous comment?

Sorry.

 

[Fleabane]

The good news is that the opinions, hopes and fears of bf posters will have pretty much no impact on the overall success or otherwise of Sam's strategy. Can't wait for next season - going to be fascinating to watch.

 

[Brishawk]

You're a ripper, your mum must be proud.
It's a lucky forum indeed to have you as the provider of facts and determiner of what my statements suggest, never mind asking....
Keep up the form, it's never far from the surface in your posting.

You spent the entire time arguing to 4P what his post meant despite every other single poster understanding what he actually meant and then post this tripe.

 

[Brishawk]

2006 Doggies 5th oldest list
2007 Doggies 5th oldest list
2008 Doggies 7th oldest list
2009 Doggies 4th oldest list
2010 Doggies oldest list
2011 Doggies 4th oldest list
2012 Doggies 6th oldest list
2013 Doggies 12th oldest list
2014 Doggies 10th oldest list
2015 Doggies 15th oldest list
2016 Doggies 13th oldest list
2017 Doggies 14th oldest list
2018 Doggies 12th oldest list

Of course, these facts I'm gaslighting you with are sure to be difficult for you to accept. I'm sure you'll find a way to change the argument to one you wish to thrash me with, so I will wait patiently.

What's weird is that it's you who has fashioned the argument, even though I had only responded that the list cull we have engaged upon was not by choice but by necessity.
The one player we would have kept wanted to go, the others either retired, weren't up to it, or hadn't shown exposed form over 4-5 years of bringing winning football to our Club.

I've never said this move to turning over the list strongly was a proven path to success.
I said, the Bullies did it, as did Melbourne.
Again, for one who doesn't like others to create strawman arguments you sure are adept at it yourself.

My quibble was with 4P feeling it necessary to proclaim what might happen in a worse case scenario if it all goes balls up.
That it was mopey.

But you sure found a way to come to the party hard with the biggest mope outburst possible.

So they made the list younger without shedding all their older, experienced players. That is not what Sam has done. That was my point