2022 Hawthorn List Management Discussion (including Trade, FA period)

[Simon Crawshay]

Chad has more natural talent and x factor.
But he can't produce it as often, and has obvious issues with staying on the park.
Sic clearly the better player, and best player on our list.

We could debate this all day

I guess it is difficult to compare them since it's been quite a while since we saw Chad at his best whereas Sicily just played an absolute blinder of a year.

But I suppose it depends what you value more. Chad can certainly kick amazing goals and can also go into the middle and be a weapon.

But Sicily's ability to play as an attacking Backman who can rack up 30 possession / 10 mark games whilst at the same time play on and totally dominate a 6 ft 6 inch key forward makes him such a freak (at only 188cm mind you).

Also his ability to read the ball in flight is as good as anyone I have ever seen (equal to Brian Lake).

And did I mention his kicking and roosting goals from 60m out

 

[Hawked Wings]

Yes his body failed him last year but the 2 years prior to that he finished top 5 in the bnf, sometimes I feel like everyone thinks he hasn’t played in 3 years. Don’t get me wrong it’s a massive year for him in terms of his contract but I’m prepared to back him in. When he’s up and going, he can win you 4 or 5 games off his own boot and we are going to need that. Fire up Chadwick!

 

[H00t]

We could debate this all day

I guess it is difficult to compare them since it's been quite a while since we saw Chad at his best whereas Sicily just played an absolute blinder of a year.

But I suppose it depends what you value more. Chad can certainly kick amazing goals and can also go into the middle and be a weapon.

But Sicily's ability to play as an attacking Backman who can rack up 30 possession / 10 mark games whilst at the same time play on and totally dominate a 6 ft 6 inch key forward makes him such a freak (at only 188cm mind you).

Also his ability to read the ball in flight is as good as anyone I have ever seen (equal to Brian Lake).

And did I mention his kicking and roosting goals from 60m out

Sicily’s consistency means his currently a better player than Chad.

But when Chad turns it on he has the potential to be the best player in the comp. His 2nd to 4th year was incredible. Then he’s unfortunately plateaued then gone backwards. His body has definitely held him back.

He was times when he shows just how insanely talented he is.

Currently picking a team you’d pick Sicily. But if you could get both at their best its Chad by a decent margin, at least in my view.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Sicily’s consistency means his currently a better player than Chad.

But when Chad turns it on he has the potential to be the best player in the comp. His 2nd to 4th year was incredible. Then he’s unfortunately plateaued then gone backwards. His body has definitely held him back.

He was times when he shows just how insanely talented he is.

Currently picking a team you’d pick Sicily. But if you could get both at their best its Chad by a decent margin, at least in my view.

I'd say that even the most optimistic Chad fan wouldn't expect him to ever get back to his form from those early years. The best we can hope for now is some flashes and hope he stays on the park for a decent chunk of the season (and that's fine).

But that is what makes Sicily such a freak. He did his ACL and comes back last year and plays like he did??? I think we have all underplayed the enormity of that feat. Only a truely elite player could pull that off.

 

[KermitJagger]

Chad has more natural talent and x factor.
But he can't produce it as often, and has obvious issues with staying on the park.
Sic clearly the better player, and best player on our list.

I don't think he has more natural talent. They have different talents, and much like pretty much every player debate on this board it's about your preference. Sicily reads the ball in flight better than anyone else in the league and could probably roost it half again as long as Chad could. Chad is sneakier, more evasive and can kick them from anywhere. What do you prefer, what do you need? It's impossible to compare them.

 

[peetoo]

I had hoped Wingate would be the silk sussessor. Deploy anywhere for spot fires

 

[matey]

Let’s hope that a few players go past Siss and Chad really soon. I’m expecting that to happen.

 

[Dewnior]

He’s still the most talented on our list

He's the most gifted, not talented. There's a difference.

 

[TylerDurden]

I don't think he has more natural talent. They have different talents, and much like pretty much every player debate on this board it's about your preference. Sicily reads the ball in flight better than anyone else in the league and could probably roost it half again as long as Chad could. Chad is sneakier, more evasive and can kick them from anywhere. What do you prefer, what do you need? It's impossible to compare them.

Peak Chad (Port days) was as good as anyone at the time. His talent is rare and freakish, when on full showtime.
I think J Lewis called it at the time, that Chad was the best player in the comp.

 

[Topiary]

Peak Chad (Port days) was as good as anyone at the time. His talent is rare and freakish, when on full showtime.
I think J Lewis called it at the time, that Chad was the best player in the comp.

Yes, agree. Times have moved on, we need to find the new Chads. That is how you win premiership's. Bit like the “three Impey’s” !!!!!

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Let’s hope that a few players go past Siss and Chad really soon. I’m expecting that to happen.

I reckon Sicily will still be at his absolute peak the next 3 years and will win another couple of PCMs before he is done. Especially if he made captain, I get the feeling he is the type that will relish the extra responsibility.

Newk, Moore, Lewis, etc have already gone past Wingard. He's never going to be the player he was at Port or what we hoped he would be at the Hawks.

But that's okay he can still be of value if he can just get his body right (this pre season is so vital for him).

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I don't think he has more natural talent. They have different talents, and much like pretty much every player debate on this board it's about your preference. Sicily reads the ball in flight better than anyone else in the league and could probably roost it half again as long as Chad could. Chad is sneakier, more evasive and can kick them from anywhere. What do you prefer, what do you need? It's impossible to compare them.

My two favourite players ever for the Hawks are Jason Dunstall and Sam Mitchell.

Neither of them were flashy players but what they did (Dunstall - lead, chest mark and kick a goal, Mitchell - extract ball and dispose by and and foot with laser like efficiency) they did at optimum level every single week without fail.

That is what Sicily does. He does his thing (negate key forward whilst racking up 25 disposals and 10 marks) every week. Without fail.

The true hallmark of a champion/elite player is consistency IMOH. That's why Sicily is a superior player to Chad regardless of talent levels.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Let’s hope that a few players go past Siss and Chad really soon. I’m expecting that to happen.

Lol mate if they do we will be in premiers. Sic is elite in his position. It would mean we have a found a few players that are elite in theirs. I think the players on our list will take a few years if ever to reach his potential let alone go past him

 

[Slainte]

My two favourite players ever for the Hawks are Jason Dunstall and Sam Mitchell.

Neither of them were flashy players but what they did (Dunstall - lead, chest mark and kick a goal, Mitchell - extract ball and dispose by and and foot with laser like efficiency) they did at optimum level every single week without fail.

That is what Sicily does. He does his thing (negate key forward whilst racking up 25 disposals and 10 marks) every week. Without fail.

The true hallmark of a champion/elite player is consistency IMOH. That's why Sicily is a superior player to Chad regardless of talent levels.

Bit of hyperbole here, Simon. Sicily only racked up 10 or more marks on 5 occasions last year and only reached the 25 disposal threshold on 7 occasions. That doesn't diminish his achievements, but facts matter.

 

[KermitJagger]

Bit of hyperbole here, Simon. Sicily only racked up 10 or more marks on 5 occasions last year and only reached the 25 disposal threshold on 7 occasions. That doesn't diminish his achievements, but facts matter.

I agree that facts matter but his actual averages of 24 disposals and 9 marks a game means it isn't a massive detour from the truth.

 

[KermitJagger]

Peak Chad (Port days) was as good as anyone at the time. His talent is rare and freakish, when on full showtime.
I think J Lewis called it at the time, that Chad was the best player in the comp.

On a similar note, Roughy said in a podcast something to the effect of we would have won 5 in a row if we had Sicily in that 2012 - 2016 period. Again I think it's about what you value, I personally have never seen any other Hawk kick the ball as sweetly and naturally as Sicily does outside of Cyril over shorter distances, and only Lake is on par in terms of reading the ball in flight.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

On a similar note, Roughy said in a podcast something to the effect of we would have won 5 in a row if we had Sicily in that 2012 - 2016 period. Again I think it's about what you value, I personally have never seen any other Hawk kick the ball as sweetly and naturally as Sicily does outside of Cyril over shorter distances, and only Lake is on par in terms of reading the ball in flight.

And on top of the elite marking, elite kicking and elite ability to negate key forwards we have all forgotten to mention Sicily's ability to totally drive the opposition players and fans nuts with some elite s..t stirring

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I agree that facts matter but his actual averages of 24 disposals and 9 marks a game means it isn't a massive detour from the truth.

Our last game in 2022 against the doggies he had 33 possies and 17 marks

That's the stats line of a player who is playing the game at a different level to everyone else on the field. In other words the Blonde Prince was taking the piss that game

 

[HedgeFund]

Yes his body failed him last year but the 2 years prior to that he finished top 5 in the bnf, sometimes I feel like everyone thinks he hasn’t played in 3 years. Don’t get me wrong it’s a massive year for him in terms of his contract but I’m prepared to back him in. When he’s up and going, he can win you 4 or 5 games off his own boot and we are going to need that. Fire up Chadwick!

In those same 3 seasons after snapping his leg completely at the start of 2019, Tom won the PCM (2021), finished 2nd (2020) and 5th (2022).

Chads issues have been soft tissue only, and they are preventable if you do the right things.

Chad was a great young player at Port - no doubt.

He’s been less than value for money at Hawthorn in the last 4 seasons. I haven’t seen him win a match for us - have you?

If he has an ordinary season in 2023, I dare say we won’t be extending his contract (and very few clubs would be coming for him anyhow).

 

[Slainte]

I agree that facts matter but his actual averages of 24 disposals and 9 marks a game means it isn't a massive detour from the truth.

Depends on whether the relevant truth pertains to consistency. You can get high averages with substantial variability. Simon was suggesting that Sicily consistently racks up those numbers. The reality is that he sometimes racks up better numbers and sometimes worse numbers which is why he gets these averages. That is not the same as getting 25 possessions and 10 marks week after week. No big deal but stats is part of my work so I tend to pay attention to these details.

 

[peetoo]

Let’s hope that a few players go past Siss and Chad really soon. I’m expecting that to happen.

There’s some good disposers by foot in the new crop. We really strayed from that vibe for a while

 

[KermitJagger]

Depends on whether the relevant truth pertains to consistency. You can get high averages with substantial variability. Simon was suggesting that Sicily consistently racks up those numbers. The reality is that he sometimes racks up better numbers and sometimes worse numbers which is why he gets these averages. That is not the same as getting 25 possessions and 10 marks week after week. No big deal but stats is part of my work so I tend to pay attention to these details.

It goes without saying when it comes to Sicily, one game under 20 disposals and 2 games above 30. Suggests minimal variability.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

It goes without saying when it comes to Sicily, one game under 20 disposals and 2 games above 30. Suggests minimal variability.

I try and think back to when was the last time I saw Sicily play a legit bad game for the Hawks. Would have to be when he was still just a kid playing out of position in the forward line (we are talking 6 years ago).

I admit I slightly pumped his tyres a bit but if I said I expect Sicily to get around 25 possessions and 10 marks on a weekly basis that's not too far off the mark.

Whereas with Chad even when he isn't injured it's always been a case of suck it and see in regards to his weekly performances at his time at the Hawks.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

In those same 3 seasons after snapping his leg completely at the start of 2019, Tom won the PCM (2021), finished 2nd (2020) and 5th (2022).

Chads issues have been soft tissue only, and they are preventable if you do the right things.

Chad was a great young player at Port - no doubt.

He’s been less than value for money at Hawthorn in the last 4 seasons. I haven’t seen him win a match for us - have you?

If he has an ordinary season in 2023, I dare say we won’t be extending his contract (and very few clubs would be coming for him anyhow).

Of course Chad has won matches for us.

 

[WWSD]

Let’s hope that a few players go past Siss and Chad really soon. I’m expecting that to happen.

At some point Day will end up being the number one player at Hawthorn in my opinion.