Autopsy 2022 Rd 23 Choked again. Season Done.

[Ezayyak]

It is possible Voss, Cook and Sayers think we are better than we are. I, for one, think we need to hit the draft hard before givng up 2nd and 3rd picks or downgrading picks for the liked of Acres

How much more talent do we need? Two gun key forwards, key backman, two elite half bank flankers, 2 elite midfielders and a couple of other excellent ones. Melbourne aren't stacked with super players in the forward line.

We need to get the game plan right, we need to understand where to go as small forwards inside 50, we need the key forwards to learn to lead into space, we need our midfield to form an instinctive connection between them. Our best football is brutal football, it is the gun players doing their thing. It isn't sustainable for an entire match.

We need to build a sustainable game plan that doesn't require brute force the whole game. A plan that hold for 3 qtrs that then allows us to brutalize for one quarter.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Recency bias. No way that this one hurts more than losing Grand Finals, especially shuddering at the thought of '73 and '93 here.

We were beaten by a better side in 93. The bombers brought in about 5 players who missed the qualifying finals. Carlton lost it, choked, yesterday as opposed to Collingwood winning it- that is why it is worse

 

[El Topo]

Honestly dont even know what we should do with our Pick 10 anyways. Who do we need to even draft? Which player we want? We got good depth, its just unfortunate that everyone got injured at the same time. We got a lot of first rounds pick running in the 2s developing.

I guess only role we probably need is a small forward?

Half forward is a massive gap until one of Cuningham/Kemp/Honey/whoever stays fit and nails the role - I'd also look to replace Fisher but that's an argument for another thread

 

[Sweet Seventeen]

I generally try not to post posts on LOB because I am not a fan, but he was really good under pressure in finals like games over the last couple of weeks.
I was willing and happy to say see you later at the end of the season, now I am not so sure.

LOB will still have his haters, but it is good to see that you are an observant watcher and humble enough to admit you got it wrong. I would have him in our best yesterday, his ball use was exceptional. If he can get in the gym over summer and add 3 more kilos, it will give him a lot more confidence. He is only 22 and has a good ten years ahead of him in navy blue. He will be a 200 plus gamer for us.

 

[gab213]

We were beaten by a better side in 93. The bombers brought in about 5 players who missed the qualifying finals. Carlton lost it, choked, yesterday as opposed to Collingwood winning it- that is why it is worse

Nothing is worse and a qualifying game can never be put up next to a Grand Final performance. There's been plenty of these type of losses in the past which were worse because we always had a more experienced side.

That team that represented us yesterday is inexperienced in big game situations as we haven't played in them at all over the time of their careers. Collingwood is a much more experienced big game participant.

That's what got Collingwood over the line, players with Finals and Grand Finals experience who are able to steady their teammates when required.

It was a gut-wrenching loss but it will serve to make our players better, I have no doubt about that.

 

[T2B_]

How much more talent do we need? Two gun key forwards, key backman, two elite half bank flankers, 2 elite midfielders and a couple of other excellent ones. Melbourne aren't stacked with super players in the forward line.

We need to get the game plan right, we need to understand where to go as small forwards inside 50, we need the key forwards to learn to lead into space, we need our midfield to form an instinctive connection between them. Our best football is brutal football, it is the gun players doing their thing. It isn't sustainable for an entire match.

We need to build a sustainable game plan that doesn't require brute force the whole game. A plan that hold for 3 qtrs that then allows us to brutalize for one quarter.

Hell, Freo are playing finals, and they have a jerry-rigged forwardline of glorified statues and journeymen.

 

[macca_74]

I didn't say it was for tactical reasons, I'd suggest fitness reasons. If it was for tactical reasons then there's no problem.

I was basing it off of Stocker being the matchup for Elliott going into the game then being on the bench in the biggest moment of the match but if it were a tactical shift then there's no fault for Liam.

Yes I know. I was asking how you know it was about Stocker vs it being about tactical reasons. Stocker certainly needs to improve his fitness but not sure we can assume he was on the bench at that time because of that or that he couldn’t be trusted.

 

[Hands On]

We can argue many point and find mistakes by our players throughout the game. What we need to realize is that in most games we have won or come close we really only performed in one or 2 quarters as per the game yesterday. Why is this so? its because our intensity lifted and we moved the ball quicker, most of the kicks forward were still bombs to a contest, however the quick ball movement left or forward line open.

Slow movement along the wing or additional stoppages in the middle allows the opposition to crowed our 2 key forwards knowing at 80% of the time the ball will go there.

In contrast once the ball was turned over the filth time and time again spread far and wide with a very open forward line to transition into. We need to stop playing under 12 style footy where we all cluster around the contest forcing hack kicks out of congestion. calmer and measured approach (particularly by forwards will result in more scores.

 

[KohPhi]

Indeed. Not a fan of looking for moments and taking potshots at players, especially not 20 year olds with 20 games of experience. There were 10 moments in the last quarter that were equally as important in deciding the outcome. I sure as hell hope that Durdin doesn't read BigFooty.

I hope he and rhe players do read Bigfooty..surely the amount of keyboard coaches, analysts, psychologists, high performance professionals offering their advice for free is a fantastic way to maximise the 'soft cap' next season!

 

[Coops93]

Half forward is a massive gap until one of Cuningham/Kemp/Honey/whoever stays fit and nails the role - I'd also look to replace Fisher but that's an argument for another thread

Depending/hoping on injury prone players to stay fit and fill an important role is a dangerous game.

 

[SBYM]

Recency bias. No way that this one hurts more than losing Grand Finals, especially shuddering at the thought of '73 and '93 here.

Bingo.

You could add the '94 straight sets capitulation as well, imo.

 

[Blue__Balls]

LOB will still have his haters, but it is good to see that you are an observant watcher and humble enough to admit you got it wrong. I would have him in our best yesterday, his ball use was exceptional. If he can get in the gym over summer and add 3 more kilos, it will give him a lot more confidence. He is only 22 and has a good ten years ahead of him in navy blue. He will be a 200 plus gamer for us.

LOB is gonna keep improving incrementally until one day people suddenly realise he's one of the best wings in the comp. He's not there yet, but it is patently clear that he is working on every one of his known deficiencies. Won't happen over night, might be a few years, but the guy knows where he needs to improve and is making significant progress.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Couldn't bring myself to watch Voss's presser until just now and I was very disappointed. "This is going to hurt a bit!" FMD, I am very concerned about his lack of acknowledgement of consistent patterns in the team's performance. Carlton is not a side that improves with the nicey, nicey approach (two decades of disappointment has told us that). Historically, our golden periods have come from brutal recognition of our weaknesses (including tirades from and acknowledgements by key coaches, Barassi and Parkin). Voss seems to be playing the more acceptable "disappointed, but we can take these things out of the game..." type philosophy. I seem to recall this being the mantra for Malthouse, Bolton and Teague (and we know how that panned out) - Ratts to his credit acknowledged trend weaknesses and took us to two finals series (and for those of you who have seen my posts, I was a critic of Ratts for a long time)! Voss, to me, is playing by the Carlton corporate rhetoric strategy....when what we need is a clear and present f'n big boot up the backside. The issue is not our bottom six (we lost our last two games in 2022 by 5 and 1 points after being in front with a few minutes to go and a number of our key players let us down rather than our bottom six). It is a mental issue for the team of not being able to close out games when we get in front. I was thinking 2023 would be a lot better, but at the moment, I'm not that confident.

I just watched it. I thought he was really good. Gutted, hurting but very positive about the future. Realistic. Do we want him in tears or slamming the players? He was very measured, very impressive. Spoke of how our team needs to be more system based and less reliant on certain players. The days of Barassi and Parkin are long gone, those methods went out the door with Pagan et al.

Re the bottom six. Owies Newnes & LOB (all last week) and Durdin say hi.

 

[El Topo]

Depending/hoping on injury prone players to stay fit and fill an important role is a dangerous game.

Voss' post match comments suggest it's a game we'll no longer be playing

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Recency bias. No way that this one hurts more than losing Grand Finals, especially shuddering at the thought of '73 and '93 here.

I dont think I'll ever get over '93.

 

[AB_Blue]

I think it's a bit harsh to be so critical on Charlie playing on around the corner. He does that every week and it's clearly worked for him previously. It wasn't like there was 1 minute left. Do people complain when Dusty does it? He's won three norm smiths doing it because it clearly works for him.

Don’t mind it….just needs to take the 30 before he does it


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[Show_Me_The_Money]

His approach to set shots is a little... amateur. Moreso than his rushing to play on and snap 3 seconds after marking, but his long range set shots he looks to half arse it and his regular set shots look clunky.

I first noticed it against the Suns when he took a mark and iirc was given a 50 right on the siren. The motm was at about 48 or 49 and I thought "Charlie is easily in Charlie range here" and he casually walked up/half jogged in then kicked and sure enough didn't make the distance or accuracy, it was a shank. It was like he was taking the set shot from 65 and knew he wouldn't make the distance so just jogged in for a laugh and threw a foot at it. He does this often for long range set shots despite actually being in range.

It's symptom of his wider approach to set shots generally, I don't think he has a process at all for any part of the ground. Just walks as though he's kicking in the park.

Even though H is an iffy set shot he clearly has a process for each spot on the ground. Sure he misses drop punts 50% of the time but I reckon if you played 4 side by side they'd all be somewhat similar, same with his snaps.

Bang on. Nobody is above the basic fundamentals of goalkicking. It's like having goals without a business plan in place.

 

[Arr0w]

Not concerned with Charlie and Harry moving forward, more concerned that we will continue to leave these 2 guys as our main/priority targets, focus to goal

We don't have resting ruckmen that can hit the scoreboard and or take the heat off them, so they get the 2 best defenders. We don't have that Fritsch, Elliott types, nor do we have smalls that are strong overhead and or kick goals from beyond 40 metres

Martin is the closest we have to the next most dangerous forward, Gov could also be an option we could revisit, or play Young forward so Charlie then gets the 3rd best tall and or allows for both Harry and Charlie not being double teamed

While we certainly need more speed, better footskills and aggression between the arcs, we need to address the personnel in the forward 50

 

[NavySteel]

I thought McCraes presser was interesting. He didn’t think the Pies were going to come back yesterday. We were too dominant and one more goal would have nailed it.
What he did say is that the Pies are the best he’s seen at making the most of the moment. And that seems to sun it up over the last two weeks. We probably had more “moments” than our opponents over the last two weeks but just don’t have the mental capacity to take them. Collingwood will make more of far fewer moments. I guess we call it efficiency. If we can lift our efficiency through maturity, poise, experience and training, there won’t be many teams above us


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Honestly, we could have, and should have, won the game by 45-odd points.

The team collectively went into their shell, and are still having trouble (it seems) playing 'tempo football'.

There are times where they just have to take the sting out of the game. A few possessions with a cool head makes the different (and that includes goal kicking). We're just lacking mental maturity and battle-hardened leaders on the field who have gone the whole journey (I love Crippa, but the fact remains, he's never played a final).

I think Cookie summed it up this morning that there needs to be more growth on and off the field to make the right decisions at the right time.

I hope the fire of 1000000 suns is burning in the team right now and want to get onto pre-season right now.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Nothing is worse and a qualifying game can never be put up next to a Grand Final performance. There's been plenty of these type of losses in the past which were worse because we always had a more experienced side.

That team that represented us yesterday is inexperienced in big game situations as we haven't played in them at all over the time of their careers. Collingwood is a much more experienced big game participant.

That's what got Collingwood over the line, players with Finals and Grand Finals experience who are able to steady their teammates when required.

It was a gut-wrenching loss but it will serve to make our players better, I have no doubt about that.

We lost that yesterday, plenty of chances to ice the game, failed to take them.

Just need to be able to produce Q3 quality footy for more than one quarter!

 

[AndyLucimitis]

I think it's a bit harsh to be so critical on Charlie playing on around the corner. He does that every week and it's clearly worked for him previously. It wasn't like there was 1 minute left. Do people complain when Dusty does it? He's won three norm smiths doing it because it clearly works for him.

Maybe let's use Jack Riewoldt as an example. In clutch moments he would the mark, give the settle down sign to the players, walk back, take his 20 seconds and more often than not nail the goal. And this is in Grand Finals.

Charlie has to become that player. That player, that in clutch moments, he's the one we want with the ball in hand.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Not concerned with Charlie and Harry moving forward, more concerned that we will continue to leave these 2 guys as our main/priority targets, focus to goal

We don't have resting ruckmen that can hit the scoreboard and or take the heat off them, so they get the 2 best defenders. We don't have that Fritsch, Elliott types, nor do we have smalls that are strong overhead and or kick goals from beyond 40 metres

Martin is the closest we have to the next most dangerous forward, Gov could also be an option we could revisit, or play Young forward so Charlie then gets the 3rd best tall and or allows for both Harry and Charlie not being double teamed

While we certainly need more speed, better footskills and aggression between the arcs, we need to address the personnel in the forward 50

I thought most had JSOS pegged as the 3rd tall (notwithstanding unexpected ruck duties this year)?

 

[Hands On]

Hell, Freo are playing finals, and they have a jerry-rigged forwardline of glorified statues and journeymen.

better game plan

 

[BigFrizz36]

Don’t mind it….just needs to take the 30 before he does it


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And also he probably needs to have a cut off line from where he needs to do it from. When he's kicking well he strikes the ball that we'll that distance isn't an issue.

Maybe outside 50 by all means. The other thing that happens when he does it is that he doesn't give the rest if the team time to set up defensively if he misses.

 

[Coops93]

Not concerned with Charlie and Harry moving forward, more concerned that we will continue to leave these 2 guys as our main/priority targets, focus to goal

We don't have resting ruckmen that can hit the scoreboard and or take the heat off them, so they get the 2 best defenders. We don't have that Fritsch, Elliott types, nor do we have smalls that are strong overhead and or kick goals from beyond 40 metres

Martin is the closest we have to the next most dangerous forward, Gov could also be an option we could revisit, or play Young forward so Charlie then gets the 3rd best tall and or allows for both Harry and Charlie not being double teamed

While we certainly need more speed, better footskills and aggression between the arcs, we need to address the personnel in the forward 50

It's a big concern of mine too. Outside of Harry and Charlie our avenues to goal are very limited. General forwards/goalkickers across the field is a huge area of concern. No goal kicking mids or wingers and our forwards aside from those 2 are pretty limited with goal nous.