List Mgmt. 2022 Trade and Free Agency Thread

[Jivlain]

 

[BuntonRules]

There is more to his life than footy, too.

 

[martinson]

There is more to his life than footy, too.

Dan did enough to hold his place in the team after yesterday particularly when you look at the alternatives.

End of story.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I don't quite understand why we would be so passive to just be fine with him leaving and worst still, to play a guy that has absolute no interest in the Lions as a club, despite supposedly being a Life Member all in the pursuit of money. In fact, I find it quite insulting to every player that played in our premiership era that practically all left money on the table in the pursuit of team success that Dan is so self interested in himself to the detriment of so many people at the club I d have thought he cared about. I'd just delist him now if he doesnt want to be here and play him in the reserves. I have no interest in any player that isnt invested in the future of the club b/c you know come crunch time in a game he cant be trusted.

American sports fans would laugh at this sort of “cutting off your nose to spite your face” stuff.

He is a paid and contracted best 22 player for the rest of this season. If his form warrants selection, you play him.

 

[McIvor]

American sports fans would laugh at this sort of “cutting off your nose to spite your face” stuff.

He is a paid and contracted best 22 player for the rest of this season. If his form warrants selection, you play him.

Fortunately I'm not - footy and cricket here - agree to disagree - why put games into someone to only improve your opposition? We've looked good with 2 rucks and 2 key fwds so best to work that system out than invest in a player that wants out b/c the club isnt good enough for him. That isnt cutting your nose off - for weeks hes played bruised free footy and i dont want a player come finals time that you cant trust will put it all on the line.

I think it cuts deeper that a fella you are giving life membership to is happy to turn his back on the club - personally i think the club should make the award discretionary b/c players who are happy to abondon and turn there back on the club arent deserved of what should be a prestigious award.

The one sport i cant stand - soccer - the lack of loyalty in that sport is sickening, not sure how anyone can put up with the constant player movement - goes to show that fans are way more invested in there teams than players ever will be.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Fortunately I'm not - footy and cricket here - agree to disagree - why put games into someone to only improve your opposition? We've looked good with 2 rucks and 2 key fwds so best to work that system out than invest in a player that wants out b/c the club isnt good enough for him. That isnt cutting your nose off - for weeks hes played bruised free footy and i dont want a player come finals time that you cant trust will put it all on the line.

I think it cuts deeper that a fella you are giving life membership to is happy to turn his back on the club - personally i think the club should make the award discretionary b/c players who are happy to abondon and turn there back on the club arent deserved of what should be a prestigious award.

He is fulfilling his contract.

I’d also argue that if you are worried about helping your opposition, refusing to play a best 22 player is doing exactly that.

 

[bungalow_bill]

If McStay makes us a stronger team and a better chance for the flag you play him. If we were down the bottom it would be different

 

[Gadzorks]

Fortunately I'm not - footy and cricket here - agree to disagree - why put games into someone to only improve your opposition? We've looked good with 2 rucks and 2 key fwds so best to work that system out than invest in a player that wants out b/c the club isnt good enough for him. That isnt cutting your nose off - for weeks hes played bruised free footy and i dont want a player come finals time that you cant trust will put it all on the line.

I think it cuts deeper that a fella you are giving life membership to is happy to turn his back on the club - personally i think the club should make the award discretionary b/c players who are happy to abondon and turn there back on the club arent deserved of what should be a prestigious award.

The one sport i cant stand - soccer - the lack of loyalty in that sport is sickening, not sure how anyone can put up with the constant player movement - goes to show that fans are way more invested in there teams than players ever will be.

That's fine if you also agree that we should never trade in talent, or players with over 100 games (life membership) with another club.

The days of bonded loyalty club to player is long gone, ridiculous to expect players to not have the same flexibility.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

I’d also argue that if you are worried about helping your opposition, refusing to play a best 22 player is doing exactly that.

Usually I say there's two (or many more) sides to every argument. In this case, there's just the one. If they make your side better, you play them.

 

[McIvor]

That's fine if you also agree that we should never trade in talent, or players with over 100 games (life membership) with another club.

The days of bonded loyalty club to player is long gone, ridiculous to expect players to not have the same flexibility.

Ive never had an affinity to players even at the Lions over the years that came here for a pay day such as Joe, Charlie or LAchie - not saying i dont appreciate them but equally, i think it was pretty low on all of their parts to desert there clubs to. I have no issue with the likes of Mitch Robbo or JL but give me a Dan Rich or Simon Black any day of the week - in fact Rhys Mathieson's love for our club i absolutely admire but dont expect me to revell in the delight of recruiting in a mercianry from another club to simply get a premiership at another club like Tom Lynch did at Richmond or even Caracella like he did at the Lions - didnt care for him one bit

anyway said my piece - no need to upset people about - but I no a fair few that agree that if a player wants out - then immediately show them door b/c we obviously aren't good enough for them.

 

[McIvor]

Usually I say there's two (or many more) sides to every argument. In this case, there's just the one. If they make your side better, you play them.

I think we could argue that the coaches havent been that tho - Fagan admitted as much by not playing Rhys so you could equally make same argument in this case to.

 

[Gadzorks]

Ive never had an affinity to players even at the Lions over the years that came here for a pay day such as Joe, Charlie or LAchie - not saying i dont appreciate them but equally, i think it was pretty low on all of their parts to desert there clubs to. I have no issue with the likes of Mitch Robbo or JL but give me a Dan Rich or Simon Black any day of the week - in fact Rhys Mathieson's love for our club i absolutely admire but dont expect me to revell in the delight of recruiting in a mercianry from another club to simply get a premiership at another club like Tom Lynch did at Richmond or even Caracella like he did at the Lions - didnt care for him one bit

anyway said my piece - no need to upset people about - but I no a fair few that agree that if a player wants out - then immediately show them door b/c we obviously aren't good enough for them.

I'm not upset, and I understand and have shared those same views. Particularly about bonding with our players delisted by other clubs. They fit the underdog story - as does matho. I'm an underdog tragic.

I'm sure most players who choose to leave have reasons that go beyond just getting money.

As much as we hate it, being around family is significant. It's possible Mcstay been incredibly lonely up here (especially with the covid years) but has stuck it out this long because he is extremely loyal. Don't think choosing to move on is an easy decision for any player.

 

[dlanod]

I think we could argue that the coaches havent been that tho - Fagan admitted as much by not playing Rhys so you could equally make same argument in this case to.

So your position is now that the coaches are incorrect like they potentially were with Matho, and playing McStay makes the team worse on the field? Interesting.

 

[The Ghost Rider]

Bees?

 

[The Flying Belgian]

I think we could argue that the coaches havent been that tho - Fagan admitted as much by not playing Rhys so you could equally make same argument in this case to.

Maybe I should have said, if you (and when I say "you" I mean the team selectors) think they make your team better, then you play them.

You're arguing to not play someone because you assume they won't be in the team. It's not close to the same thing. Some fans may have given up hope of winning the flag, but I guarantee 100% the football department and the players haven't. You play the best side that you think you can put on the park. I honestly can't believe anyone would even entertain the idea of doing otherwise.

Yes, sometimes the selection committee get things wrong (plus we've only seen one week with Matho in the side, so let's not rush to judgement on that one), but they would never deliberately hurt a side's chances of winning.

 

[McIvor]

Maybe I should have said, if you (and when I say "you" I mean the team selectors) think they make your team better, then you play them.

You're arguing to not play someone because you assume they won't be in the team. It's not close to the same thing. Some fans may have given up hope of winning the flag, but I guarantee 100% the football department and the players haven't. You play the best side that you think you can put on the park. I honestly can't believe anyone would even entertain the idea of doing otherwise.

Yes, sometimes the selection committee get things wrong (plus we've only seen one week with Matho in the side, so let's not rush to judgement on that one), but they would never deliberately hurt a side's chances of winning.

Deliberate or otherwise, but they don't play Mathieson against Essendon when many knew it was obvious, play Tunstill against Melbourne and numerous other examples when it was pretty obvious to all that they were hurting the teams chance of winning - not sure how someone can say otherwise. As for assuming someone wont be in the team - nunez said he wont be here next year - he / she has a really good track record and obvious inside knowledge and a good poster who knows there footy so hes pretty much gone. I also didnt realize that Dan not being in the team means we cant win the flag - I dont think we can get past Demons or Cats - but if Dan is the reason we cant then surely you would be moving everything to keep by improving your offer - seems ridiculous to me that you go an pay someone like Joe a ton of money for reasons im not sure.

 

[dlanod]

Deliberate or otherwise, but they don't play Mathieson against Essendon when many knew it was obvious, play Tunstill against Melbourne and numerous other examples when it was pretty obvious to all that they were hurting the teams chance of winning - not sure how someone can say otherwise.

Two people have opinions. Just because you agree with one set of them doesn't make it obvious that it was correct ahead of time. Using hindsight to bolster the claim does absolutely zero to provide it obvious ahead of time.

I also didnt realize that Dan not being in the team means we cant win the flag - I dont think we can get past Demons or Cats - but if Dan is the reason we cant then surely you would be moving everything to keep by improving your offer - seems ridiculous to me that you go an pay someone like Joe a ton of money for reasons im not sure.

Everyone else has been talking about improving our chances to win. You're talking about it being impossible to win without McStay. You're just making up what people are saying to better be able to argue against it now. It does make it pretty funny to watch someone telling people they're wrong for saying something when it's not what they said.

I understand the position of not wanting to play McStay if he's not here next year. It's an emotional response, and if you judge it fine to take the team hit because of it - ok. But misrepresenting other people's points to try to claim benching him is the only logical approach is silly.

 

[p4p1]

Players don't owe clubs anything. Clubs will get rid of a player as soon as the player isn't of any use to them. Can't blame a player for taking what is their best option.
Clubs need to act like professionals corporations because they are. Mistreating a player because he won't be there next year is counterproductive.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

As for assuming someone wont be in the team - nunez said he wont be here next year - he / she has a really good track record and obvious inside knowledge and a good poster who knows there footy so hes pretty much gone. I also didnt realize that Dan not being in the team means we cant win the flag - I dont think we can get past Demons or Cats - but if Dan is the reason we cant then surely you would be moving everything to keep by improving your offer - seems ridiculous to me that you go an pay someone like Joe a ton of money for reasons im not sure.

dlanod addressed this pretty well above, but I'll address it in my own words also.

You're arguing emotionally which I don't care for, but I also understand.

However, the footy club is a business first and foremost and winning games of football and ultimately premierships are one of the main goals. If we weren't in contention I might be more inclined to agree, although I still think it's pretty unprofessional - a player has an employment contract and they should be picked if the selection panel thinks they are a part of the best team that can win a chosen game of football. I don't know a huge amount about match payments and whether they differ for seniors vs reserves but I suspect they might. Also, there are sometimes clauses built into contracts that specify if a player plays x amount of games per year they get a bonus payment. Again, you might say who cares, he's not going to with us next year, but even if that were absolutely true, there could still potentially be legal grounds on which a player could launch legal action against their club. These are all hypotheticals, but not outside the realms of possibility.

And as for your last point, games of football are one by thousand of small decisions and contests all of which add up. If what you put together with your team adds up to more than the oppositions, more often than not, you win. That's how teams are run. If a one point win in a preliminary final (not out of the realms of possibility given our recent finals history) features a goal-scoring chain containing a McStay mark on the wing or a McStay crashed pack where the ball falls to Charlie Cameron, then yes, he would be the difference between winning and losing.

It's all about the thousands of percents that add up to a game of football being won or lost.

 

[morsie]

If McStay makes us a stronger team and a better chance for the flag you play him. If we were down the bottom it would be different

Agreed,if we are still a chance and he is in form,play him.If we are no longer a chance get games into others.
Footy is a business and if he is signed to another club a few games in the 2s won't hurt him.
I thought he had checked out mentally but seemed to be back this week.Hope that continues.

 

[davemc_lions]

Also maybe Dan is not fully out the door. Maybe he 95% going to Pies
still a chance to keep

 

[mpal6]

Not a great outcome, but losing Dan is an ok result if it gives us cap space to attract another decent mid to our list.

 

[scoman]

Barrett going with Taranto to Collingwood rumours. Surely that makes getting Dan pretty hard as well. Although, there are also rumours of offloading Grundy somehow and more than likely letting Degoey move on, so who knows. Could be a massive trade period for Collingwood again.

 

[davemc_lions]

Barrett going with Taranto to Collingwood rumours. Surely that makes getting Dan pretty hard as well. Although, there are also rumours of offloading Grundy somehow and more than likely letting Degoey move on, so who knows. Could be a massive trade period for Collingwood again.

if Grundy and Degoey go a big chunk of change..
Although you think they have to pay a chunk of Grundy's 1 mill a year elsewhere

 

[blueiris]

Team mates/clubs knowing that certain players are leaving happens all the time all over the world, the NRL can do it mid season and 18 months in advance, no big deal, these players are professional and mature enough to give their all... or they should be.

If Dan's form doesn't warrant selection he will be out of the team and the decision from the coaches will have nothing to do with him maybe moving on at the end of the year.

Fagan has already said he’d play Dan as he sees it as our best set up I feel for Fort who can play forward and 2nd ruck but Fages sees McStay as the better option

 

[Sanchez365]

if Grundy and Degoey go a big chunk of change..
Although you think they have to pay a chunk of Grundy's 1 mill a year elsewhere

Would you take the loss of McStay to pickup Grundy, moving the Big O into a fwd/ruck role?

Could be a great way for Brisbane and Collingwood to manipulate the draft return for Grundy, basically trading salary onto McStays contract in return for them taking part.of Grundies contract on.