List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

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Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant
 
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Docker82 said:
My understanding is that the selection you’re talking about was traded to us as part of the Ed Langdon trade.

You can definitely trade in picks that were previously yours just nit with the same club.

Besides I think this has only been a rule since after the Hogan trade happened. I think Sydney traded out a second rounder for future second, matched a bid with a bunch of third and fourth rounders, then traded that same second rounder back in. Once that happened the AFL brought in the rule you’re talking about. Think the event I’m talking about may have happened at the draft the same year we traded for Hogan tbh.
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yeah was for nick blakey's bid i reckon
 
There’s a great discussion on here about the 2018 trade period so I decided to cut the waffle and go straight to the truth of what happened.
It’s all here:

All AFL Trades for 2018 - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au www.draftguru.com.au

Here’s the key trade in the entire process.
Fremantle#11 (#14 - Hately - 27 games) + #23 (##23- Sparrow - 56 games) + #30 (##30- Berry - 20 games) + #49 (-#49TD]
[TD]213 XG
Port Adelaide#6 (King - 58 games) + #2019R#2019R3antle) (#49 - Jamieson - 10 games)151 XG

Immediately notable to me in hindsight, is the following:
I think we allowed port Adelaide get pick 6 far too easily. The top 7 or 8 picks are premium picks normally. Bell was soft here in my view. An additional issue was that we failed to realise that some bids were going to come later in the top 10, thus pushing back those picks even further. Pick 11 ended up being pick 14 on the night and pick 19 ended up being pick 23, but crucially Pick 6 was still pick 6.

To me it’s the live pick that matters. That is the true value of what was traded.

There was a FURTHER red flag in This pick swap that should have been considered by us, and it’s this - before that draft there was a bunch of 7 draftees considered out on their own. The first 7 picks carried the premium in 2018 and were the prized picks. They were Bracket 1, so to speak. Everyone knew the following 7 players were going in the first 7 picks before the draft:
Walsh
Lukosius
Rankine
Max King
Rozee
Ben king
Bailey smith.

Peter bell gave port Adelaide a slot in that coveted bracket before the draft WITHOUT INVOLVING A FUTURE FIRST ROUND PICK.
This should never have happened.
port should have been handing over pick 11 and their F1 pick, for that pick 6.
But because we had been seduced by Lobb, we gave port an easy out. Allowed them to package up a bunch of picks that could only obtain role players for probably one of the most coveted pick 6 ever in draft history.

We swapped Ben King for jackson Hately, Tom Sparrow and Tom Berry.
A star for 3 bottom six role player types. It actually reads like one of those silly trades you see ridiculed by one eyed fans on trade radio. Except it happened. To us.

Port Adelaide managed to move from pick 14 to pick 6 in a superdraft without involving their F1. Snuffaluphagus we often debate this and I would say that is impossible normally but we let port do it. Would we get that deal from any one? You must be joking.

Port used our desperation for Lobb to get themselves a crazy good deal. Criminal mistake by us.
Port then used pick 6 and a couple of junk picks in the 40s to get pick 5 and sam Mayes (steak knives) and bingo - they get themselves Conor Rozee, a genuine A grade star of the future for pick 14 and a bunch of junk picks.
Trading up doesn’t get much better than that.
 
Dockeroo said:
There’s a great discussion on here about the 2018 trade period so I decided to cut the waffle and go straight to the truth of what happened.
It’s all here:

All AFL Trades for 2018 - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au www.draftguru.com.au

Here’s the key trade in the entire process.
Fremantle#11 (#14 - Hately - 27 games) + #23 (##23- Sparrow - 56 games) + #30 (##30- Berry - 20 games) + #49 (-#49TD]
[TD]213 XG
Port Adelaide#6 (King - 58 games) + #2019R#2019R3antle) (#49 - Jamieson - 10 games)151 XG

Immediately notable to me in hindsight, is the following:
I think we allowed port Adelaide get pick 6 far too easily. The top 7 or 8 picks are premium picks normally. Bell was soft here in my view. An additional issue was that we failed to realise that some bids were going to come later in the top 10, thus pushing back those picks even further. Pick 11 ended up being pick 14 on the night and pick 19 ended up being pick 23, but crucially Pick 6 was still pick 6.

To me it’s the live pick that matters. That is the true value of what was traded.

There was a FURTHER red flag in This pick swap that should have been considered by us, and it’s this - before that draft there was a bunch of 7 draftees considered out on their own. The first 7 picks carried the premium in 2018 and were the prized picks. They were Bracket 1, so to speak. Everyone knew the following 7 players were going in the first 7 picks before the draft:
Walsh
Lukosius
Rankine
Max King
Rozee
Ben king
Bailey smith.

Peter bell gave port Adelaide a slot in that coveted bracket before the draft WITHOUT INVOLVING A FUTURE FIRST ROUND PICK.
This should never have happened.
port should have been handing over pick 11 and their F1 pick, for that pick 6.
But because we had been seduced by Lobb, we gave port an easy out. Allowed them to package up a bunch of picks that could only obtain role players for probably one of the most coveted pick 6 ever in draft history.

We swapped Ben King for jackson Hately, Tom Sparrow and Tom Berry.
A star for 3 bottom six role player types. It actually reads like one of those silly trades you see ridiculed by one eyed fans on trade radio. Except it happened. To us.

Port Adelaide managed to move from pick 14 to pick 6 in a superdraft without involving their F1. Snuffaluphagus we often debate this and I would say that is impossible normally but we let port do it. Would we get that deal from any one? You must be joking.

Port used our desperation for Lobb to get themselves a crazy good deal. Criminal mistake by us.
Port then used pick 6 and a couple of junk picks in the 40s to get pick 5 and sam Mayes (steak knives) and bingo - they get themselves Conor Rozee, a genuine A grade star of the future for pick 14 and a bunch of junk picks.
Trading up doesn’t get much better than that.
Click to expand...
Hmm, I remember at the time everyone thought we got crazy overs for that trade down and I still think that trade was fine in isolation and for what we were trying to do that period. That return for pick 6 is fine (look at WC's return for their top pick last year), it's a full drafts worth of picks essentially to move up a few spots and there is value in having lots of picks. The problem was that we felt we had to do that to make our other trades work, ie, dont trade for Hogan and we might have found a different way to bring in Lobb.
 

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gungho said:
Do you know any other team (maybe apart from Gold Coast) that has given up so much talent that is still playing AFL?
In no particular order:

Brad hill
Langdon
Neale
Lobb
Hogan
Sam Collins
Weller
Acres
Logue
Cerra.
Crozier
Click to expand...
I don't care.
I would love to have most of those guys firing for us.
Langdon, Hogan, acres. We virtually gave away for nothing.
Imagine having Langdon and acres on opposite wings kicking to bogan. 😅😭
 
Was it reported that when Bell was in contention for the NM CEO last year, he stepped back from the trading role which Walls took over? Or was that just for the Logue deal?
 
In: Jesse Hogan (Melbourne), Rory Lobb (GWS), Reece Conca (Richmond), Travis Colyer (Essendon), picks 14, 31, 43, 65,

Out: Lachie Neale (Brisbane), pick 6, 2019 third-round pick, 2019 fourth-round pick

I will just leave this here. And so.e people are happy we did this shit.

Brisbane had pick 5, we could have taken pick 5 and walked away.
 
Docker82 said:
Jordan Clark has been very good for us.

Some posters genuinely have an agenda that Freo should never trade and consistently (probably on purpose) understate any contribution any player traded into Freo has had.

If Jordan Clark is a failed trade for Pick 21 or thereabouts then every draftee we’ve picked up at that range except Nat Fyfe and maybe Hayden Ballantyne is a fail as well. Matthew Johnson maybe as well if he comes good.
Click to expand...
For me it is the known quantity of Clark that makes it a no.

He will never be an A grader, and during a rebuild you need as many a graders as possible.

This is why I support trading away picks during a rebuild except in a few situations e.g. Crows and Dawson, Rankin as they brought in A graders in positions they need
 
go_the_dockers said:
For me it is the known quantity of Clark that makes it a no.

He will never be an A grader, and during a rebuild you need as many a graders as possible.

This is why I support trading away picks during a rebuild except in a few situations e.g. Crows and Dawson, Rankin as they brought in A graders in positions they need
Click to expand...
Pick 21 averages 63 games. Clark is >> then a 63 game player. In fact thats why Geelong used pick 15 on them.

Rankine was traded for pick 5.
 
go_the_dockers said:
In: Jesse Hogan (Melbourne), Rory Lobb (GWS), Reece Conca (Richmond), Travis Colyer (Essendon), picks 14, 31, 43, 65,

Out: Lachie Neale (Brisbane), pick 6, 2019 third-round pick, 2019 fourth-round pick

I will just leave this here. And so.e people are happy we did this s**t.

Brisbane had pick 5, we could have taken pick 5 and walked away.
Click to expand...
Lets not be too revisionist.

I also remember Hogan looking like a generational key forward after being nabbed in the mini draft, kicking 40 goals a season from his debut season.
I think we were fawning over him for about 3 years in our list management and bring it home threads, a million posts involving that photo with the freo scarf.

At the time you could see the logic in the trade. He just went off the rails being back in Perth and with all that had gone on in his life. I'd put that on him tbf.
 
kuhni said:
Lets not be too revisionist.

I also remember Hogan looking like a generational key forward after being nabbed in the mini draft, kicking 40 goals a season from his debut season.
I think we were fawning over him for about 3 years in our list management and bring it home threads, a million posts involving that photo with the freo scarf.

At the time you could see the logic in the trade. He just went off the rails being back in Perth and with all that had gone on in his life. I'd put that on him tbf.
Click to expand...
Hogan had off field issues, same with Harley, we saw first hand what that did to WC.
Due diligence and those trades don’t get done.
Younger generation have to social media everything in their lives.
 
kuhni said:
Lets not be too revisionist.

I also remember Hogan looking like a generational key forward after being nabbed in the mini draft, kicking 40 goals a season from his debut season.
I think we were fawning over him for about 3 years in our list management and bring it home threads, a million posts involving that photo with the freo scarf.

At the time you could see the logic in the trade. He just went off the rails being back in Perth and with all that had gone on in his life. I'd put that on him tbf.
Click to expand...
Hogan ****ed us hard .
Most was on him and it looks bad in hindsight as he did give a reputation to uphold 😅
 
kuhni said:
Lets not be too revisionist.

I also remember Hogan looking like a generational key forward after being nabbed in the mini draft, kicking 40 goals a season from his debut season.
I think we were fawning over him for about 3 years in our list management and bring it home threads, a million posts involving that photo with the freo scarf.

At the time you could see the logic in the trade. He just went off the rails being back in Perth and with all that had gone on in his life. I'd put that on him tbf.
Click to expand...
His foot was ****ed, he was already off the rails and we knew it.
 

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kuhni said:
Pick 21 averages 63 games. Clark is >> then a 63 game player. In fact thats why Geelong used pick 15 on them.

Rankine was traded for pick 5.
Click to expand...
But you don't trade in known b graders during a rebuild using a 1st round pick.

If they come for a 3rd rounder it is ok.

It is so hard getting A graders, and you get enough B graders in the draft.
 
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Snuffaluphagus said:
Hmm, I remember at the time everyone thought we got crazy overs for that trade down and I still think that trade was fine in isolation and for what we were trying to do that period. That return for pick 6 is fine (look at WC's return for their top pick last year), it's a full drafts worth of picks essentially to move up a few spots and there is value in having lots of picks. The problem was that we felt we had to do that to make our other trades work, ie, dont trade for Hogan and we might have found a different way to bring in Lobb.
Click to expand...
If the shoe was on the other foot here, do you think we would get that deal from port Adelaide? Not a hope.
Imagine we had pick 11 that everyone knew was going to slide to 14 (due to Thomas, Blakey and Quaynor bids) and we wanted to get up to pick 6?
Port would just tell us to F off if our first wasn’t included. They wouldn’t even entertain a conversation. They were pretty decent at the time too and the F1 was a teens pick.
It doesn’t matter what people thought at the time - we swapped the rights to draft Ben King for 3 fringe/role players.
It’s a great example why the first few picks in the draft are so valuable.

Here’s a better illustration. Just think last year when we had pick 13 for example and melb wanted an early first for LJ. Why didn’t we just do what port did? Trade pick 13 and a couple of seconds in the 20s for pick 6 and then be done with it? Give melb pick 6 for LJ and no F1 involved?
I’ll tell you why - no one would be silly enough to give us that deal.
 
go_the_dockers said:
But you don't trade in known b graders during a rebuild using a 1st round pick.

If they come for a 3rd rounder it is ok.

It is so hard getting A graders, and you get enough B graders in the draft.
Click to expand...
Clark is a good player, you’ve got rocks in your head.

You hardly ever get reliable A graders beyond pick 10, even top 10 picks rarely make the grade. Clark looks like playing 200 games for us, you do that trade every day of the week.
 
go_the_dockers said:
But you don't trade in known b graders during a rebuild using a 1st round pick.

If they come for a 3rd rounder it is ok.

It is so hard getting A graders, and you get enough B graders in the draft.
Click to expand...
Agree with much of what you are saying but not about Clark. He should play 200 games for freo and maybe make an AA squad at his very best. Thats more than a good return for pick 22.
Name the last A grader selected at pick 22?
 
royale with cheese said:
Clark is a good player, you’ve got rocks in your head.

You hardly ever get reliable A graders beyond pick 10, even top 10 picks rarely make the grade. Clark looks like playing 200 games for us, you do that trade every day of the week.
Click to expand...
Every trade we've ever done has destroyed the club etc...

Probably thinks we lost the Will Brodie trade.
 
We need to accept the reality of where we fit in the AFL landscape. We are a second tier club, in the world’s most isolated city, with a poor record. We are not attractive to established players and even if we start seeing success, that is unlikely to change. By consequence of who we are we will need to overpay at the trade table.

Big trades for players like Croad, Tarrant, Hogan, Jackson simply don’t pan out for us, because ultimately Melbourne is the centre of gravity in footy, and we either have to make big deals for the clubs who hold them or the players themselves.

This does not mean we cannot be successful. We share a state with one other club, a state with 2 million mostly footy mad people. The demographics favour us better than anyone aside from West Coast. We can get inside running on local picks (that’s how we got guys like Fyfe, Hill, arguably Johnson). We can get speculative local picks that produce highly (Duffield, Sandilands). We can still draft non-Vics and inculcate them with Western Australian ideology (Pav, Mundy). We can trade for players that fill the gaps and don’t cost much (Clark, Aish, Acres)

But trading in the hero is a dead duck for us. Nearly 30 years of evidence, over multiple regimes and coaches, that we cannot make it work.
 
All the talk about our list and in particular the issues we have on our wings makes me so disappointed that Henry hasn't come on like expected. He's been given every opportunity to take a spot on the wing but has fallen way short. He should be best 22 in this team but instead is depth. What a result from a top 10 pick.
 
Scham said:
The wings, if they're good enough can help with clearances.
Click to expand...

If we are moving the ball from about a 45 forwards to backwards out of the stoppages, absolutely. We did that last season with those short kicks to just outside the square securing the ball - but then the opposition were moving back to fill up the fifty. It's better than turning it over directly at half forward though.
 
royale with cheese said:
Clark is a good player, you’ve got rocks in your head.

You hardly ever get reliable A graders beyond pick 10, even top 10 picks rarely make the grade. Clark looks like playing 200 games for us, you do that trade every day of the week.
Click to expand...
I never said he won't be solid depth player, I just stated my opinion, in that you don't trade first round or early 2nd round picks during a rebuild for at best, a B grade player.

You need A graders, not B graders to win a flag.

FYI - once we get the 5 or 6 A graders you need, then I would be happy to bring someone like Clark in, but not during a rebuild.



Clark is very unlikely to be the difference between us winning a flag, but another A grader could be.
 
go_the_dockers said:
I never said he won't be solid depth player, I just stated my opinion, in that you don't trade first round or early 2nd round picks during a rebuild for at best, a B grade player.

You need A graders, not B graders to win a flag.

FYI - once we get the 5 or 6 A graders you need, then I would be happy to bring someone like Clark in, but not during a rebuild.



Clark is very unlikely to be the difference between us winning a flag, but another A grader could be.
Click to expand...
“Solid depth”? Are you hitting the pipe?

Wtf is a “a grader” by your terminology? Fyfe? Mundy? We didn’t get either of these after pick 20.

Clark was traded in at the end of 2021, we’d been rebuilding for six years by that point. If we screwed up the rebuild this has nothing to do with the Clark trade.
 
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