List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[ItsAllAboutMe]

A lot of talk about trading out a "star" player for picks but let's look at it objectively.
Who's going to pay top trade value for our "stars?"
Their ball use is shameful, work ethic is doubtful and overall output is sh..ful.

Food for thought; Docherty, Saad, Newman, Hewitt, Williams, Boyd and Cowan.

We are a team of half back flankers.
I'll leave Cowan out of it.
The others all came to the club with question marks.
Brisbane doubted Docherty's ball use. Tick.
Essendon doubted Saad's defensive game. Tick
Sydney doubted Newman's disposal. Tick
Sydney doubted Hewitt's midfield ability. Tick
Williams has always struggled stay fit. Tick
Boyd......... don't even go there. Soft.

Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick - BOOOOM!!!
We're stuck with a team full of half back flankers!
Don't forget that Cerra, Kennedy and Ed have also played there this year.

The issue is that no club is going to want to take on the contracts, the players will only want to go to competing clubs and they will not have the room in the cap so we would end up carrying a fair % of the contract and the clubs that we will be trading with wont have high picks anyway.

The only player that might be worth consideration is Harry McKay, a club like Sydney would take his contract and we could get 2 first round picks for him.. The others that would demand top end trade currency are Charlie, Walsh & Weiters and we simply can not lose them. Cripps is too old to get anything decent and on too much $, Cerra is our BNF winner so cant be trading him. I dont think there is another player on our list who would warrant a 1st round pick.

 

[Funk]

FWIW - very sensible article in HUN today by Sam Landsberger re Carlton’s player list.

A lot of common sense and no histrionics.

Definitely worth a read.

 

[HarryFlashman]

This will be highly unpopular but I think at least worth some consideration as it refresh’s the list asap.
Trade out Harry

• will get us 2 1st round picks (one very low, one mid/high)
• it would get us the best small/medium forward in the draft, who would partially offset H scoring
• He’s massively in his own head, I don’t think he’s ever going to be an accurate & reliable set shot for us. I reckon this run of form will scar- he will get better but there will always be a question when under pressure.
• think Charlie will step up
• long term can we really carry 2 forwards who are iffy set shots, when they both are off it destroys the team confidence
• gives us a good pick to chase a talented 2nd tall defender (IMO Young isn’t the partner Weiters needs & isn’t viable long term)

Question is, is losing H worth a gun kid forward and good key back.
Harry over the last 3 seasons (incl Coleman yr) has played 50 games, kicked 120 goals - that’s 2.4 per game.

A gun forward avg 1 goal a game & a key back stopping 1 more goal & launching just one more rebound (every fourth game) that leads to a goal would be a net positive on H’s output & that’s based on his highest output to date.

H has kicked 120 goals 82 behinds (not counting the OB or didn’t make the distance) that’s 202 scoring shots that a 60% conversion rate- he ran at 56% for his Coleman & is running at less than 50% this yr (that again is not counting OB & not making distance) realistically he’d be at sub 45%.

I think the number stack up to at least give it some consideration- have at it

 

[Accidental genius]

This will be highly unpopular but I think at least worth some consideration as it refresh’s the list asap.
Trade out Harry

• will get us 2 1st round picks (one very low, one mid/high)
• it would get us the best small/medium forward in the draft, who would partially offset H scoring
• He’s massively in his own head, I don’t think he’s ever going to be an accurate & reliable set shot for us. I reckon this run of form will scar- he will get better but there will always be a question when under pressure.
• think Charlie will step up
• long term can we really carry 2 forwards who are iffy set shots, when they both are off it destroys the team confidence
• gives us a good pick to chase a talented 2nd tall defender (IMO Young isn’t the partner Weiters needs & isn’t viable long term)

Question is, is losing H worth a gun kid forward and good key back.
Harry over the last 3 seasons (incl Coleman yr) has played 50 games, kicked 120 goals - that’s 2.4 per game.

A gun forward avg 1 goal a game & a key back stopping 1 more goal & launching just one more rebound (every fourth game) that leads to a goal would be a net positive on H’s output & that’s based on his highest output to date.

H has kicked 120 goals 82 behinds (not counting the OB or didn’t make the distance) that’s 202 scoring shots that a 60% conversion rate- he ran at 56% for his Coleman & is running at less than 50% this yr (that again is not counting OB & not making distance) realistically he’d be at sub 45%.

I think the number stack up to at least give it some consideration- have at it

I see what you're saying but imo we cant afford to lose H (or Charlie or weitering). From waht Im seeing H and Charlie are suffering atm to some extent because the team is playing so badly. Get a good coach, some good utilities incluing fast dynamic mid or two so that we can play fast modern footy and H and Charlie will/should be unstoppable.

We will have around pick 4 this year and we should get maybe a late 1st early 2nd for TDK if he leaves. Sounds like we will be turning over the list a bit and I have no idea who the club may try to trade so we might get some more draft capital.

So we should have something to work with in terms of bringing in draftees without losing an important player like H.

 

[RAPPA]

They need on field leadership. I despise Jack Riewoldt but he has exactly the smarts we need up forward. Granted we need equivalent intelligence down back and in the midfield too. But we really need an experienced general to give what we do clearly lack - on field leadership.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

FWIW - very sensible article in HUN today by Sam Landsberger re Carlton’s player list.

A lot of common sense and no histrionics.

Definitely worth a read.

Just reading now, some strange things to say.. Mentioned the Camporeale twins next year as the reason to trade next years first into this uyears draft.. What have the Campo twins done this year to suggest they will lbe first round selections. from what i can see they didn't even make the cut for SANFL team..

Also some of these are bizarre... keep Akuei, has he even watched him play.. Fogarty uncertain.. Philp Keep. All 3 of these will be told to go Mad Monday..

DRAFT HAND No.4, 58, 67, 76
* Traded pick 22 for Jaxon Binns and pick 40 for Blake Acres last year; received pick 67 from Essendon in Will Setterfield deal
OUT OF CONTRACT

Domanic Akuei — keep

Alex Cincotta — keep

David Cuningham — keep (need speed)

Ed Curnow — uncertain

Tom De Koning — attempt to keep (could request trade)

Paddy Dow — trade

Sam Durdin — delist (injury-prone)

Lachie Fogarty — uncertain

Josh Honey — keep

Brodie Kemp — keep

Lachie Plowman — delist

Caleb Marchbank — delist (injury-prone)

Mitch McGovern — trade or re-sign on less than $400,000 (on $800,000)

Nic Newman — keep

Hudson O’Keeffe — keep

Sam Philp — keep (need speed)

Jack Silvagni — keep (free agent, could leave if De Koning stays)

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

This will be highly unpopular but I think at least worth some consideration as it refresh’s the list asap.
Trade out Harry

• will get us 2 1st round picks (one very low, one mid/high)
• it would get us the best small/medium forward in the draft, who would partially offset H scoring
• He’s massively in his own head, I don’t think he’s ever going to be an accurate & reliable set shot for us. I reckon this run of form will scar- he will get better but there will always be a question when under pressure.
• think Charlie will step up
• long term can we really carry 2 forwards who are iffy set shots, when they both are off it destroys the team confidence
• gives us a good pick to chase a talented 2nd tall defender (IMO Young isn’t the partner Weiters needs & isn’t viable long term)

Question is, is losing H worth a gun kid forward and good key back.
Harry over the last 3 seasons (incl Coleman yr) has played 50 games, kicked 120 goals - that’s 2.4 per game.

A gun forward avg 1 goal a game & a key back stopping 1 more goal & launching just one more rebound (every fourth game) that leads to a goal would be a net positive on H’s output & that’s based on his highest output to date.

H has kicked 120 goals 82 behinds (not counting the OB or didn’t make the distance) that’s 202 scoring shots that a 60% conversion rate- he ran at 56% for his Coleman & is running at less than 50% this yr (that again is not counting OB & not making distance) realistically he’d be at sub 45%.

I think the number stack up to at least give it some consideration- have at it

Sounds good in theory except almost all teams are now playing with 2 tall key forwards. If we trade Harry, and Lose TDK then Charlie becomes far too easy to defend. We simply just need to use Charlie & Harry better.

 

[charred_fate]

A lot of talk about trading out a "star" player for picks but let's look at it objectively.
Who's going to pay top trade value for our "stars?"
Their ball use is shameful, work ethic is doubtful and overall output is sh..ful.

Food for thought; Docherty, Saad, Newman, Hewitt, Williams, Boyd and Cowan.

We are a team of half back flankers.
I'll leave Cowan out of it.
The others all came to the club with question marks.
Brisbane doubted Docherty's ball use. Tick.
Essendon doubted Saad's defensive game. Tick
Sydney doubted Newman's disposal. Tick
Sydney doubted Hewitt's midfield ability. Tick
Williams has always struggled stay fit. Tick
Boyd......... don't even go there. Soft.

Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick - BOOOOM!!!
We're stuck with a team full of half back flankers!
Don't forget that Cerra, Kennedy and Ed have also played there this year.

Not all bs, but missing the mark with Boyd and Saad.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

They need on field leadership. I despise Jack Riewoldt but he has exactly the smarts we need up forward. Granted we need equivalent intelligence down back and in the midfield too. But we really need an experienced general to give what we do clearly lack - on field leadership.

That is a horrific call on Riewoldt.. But I do agree on the leadership aspect.. Our mids have Crips & Walsh and our backs have Doc & Weiters as strong leaders but forwards dont have anyone with leadership qualities directing traffic during the game..

 

[reubsblues]

They need on field leadership. I despise Jack Riewoldt but he has exactly the smarts we need up forward. Granted we need equivalent intelligence down back and in the midfield too. But we really need an experienced general to give what we do clearly lack - on field leadership.

I agree even someone like Todd Goldstein
Would probably be our first ruckman to

 

[DangerousD]

I keep reading people saying how good we went in the 1st half of last year, but which quality team did we beat in that time frame?

Round 1 win against Richmond, we were due and it's clear they have dropped away.

Round 2 against the dogs by 2 goals. This team is a flat track bully team and we only kicked 4 goals in the last half. The dogs kicked 2.7 in the last and I think we all expected they would run over top of us. We looked dead in the last.

Round 3 win against the Hawks. A 1 point win..... A bottom team. We were up 43 to 9 at quarter time.

Round 4 we lost to the Suns by 5 goals.

Round 5 win against Port by 3 points. 43 points up at half time, ports midfield no where near as good as this year. Again s**t the bed in the last half and we're extremely lucky to not be the laughing stock by giving up such a decent lead. We all thought we were lucky in the end.

Round 6 35 point loss to Freo. Game was over at 3 quarter time.

Round 7 a 50 point win against the Roos. Were only up by 8 points at half time against a bottom team.

Round 8 a 48 point win against the Crows, they were another bottom team.

Round 9 beat the Giants by 5 goals. Only up by 6 points at 3 quarter time.

Round 10 we beat the swans by 15 points. They kicked 1.5 in the last.

Round 11. Pies beat us by 4 points.

Look, we did what we needed to in some of those wins, but looking at it closely, we really didn't show much dominance and lost or just held on to some pretty poor clubs. The win column looks pretty good but if we really look closely, were we really a "great" club during that time?

For me, we need a mini rebuild and must clear some high priced players who are producing little and bring in some youth. Currently we sit smack bang 15th and our slow mids are only going to get slower. That's all I know

How we interpret those wins will depend on our current views of the list or views at the time, the facts are we won 9 out of the first 13 games and agreed we nearly could have lost a few more, we also lost quite a few close games.

I agree with most that the list needs a freshen up with youth, just not sure if the club thinks trading big names on big $$$$ is the right way to go.

I was and always will be critical of Silvagni time as list boss, but one thing I thought he did very well was, moving on players who had high currency who he thought wouldn’t be around when we were contending. The players that fit that description now are.

Doc (30 this year)
Saad (29 this year)
Williams (29 this year)
Cripps (28 this year)
Hewett (28 this year)

I don’t see the club wanting to or willing to trade any of these guys and players like Dow, Fisher, Gov, Kennedy would only get you 2nds, 3rd or 4th round picks, hardly enough to inject top end quality to the list.

Our biggest dilemma in my opinion is that I think (based on the media, Cooks comments, last years trade period) we have no cap space.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

I agree even someone like Todd Goldstein
Would probably be our first ruckman to

Goldy is about to turn 35, would have been a great get 3 years ago but not an option now.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

That is a horrific call on Riewoldt.. But I do agree on the leadership aspect.. Our mids have Crips & Walsh and our backs have Doc & Weiters as strong leaders but forwards dont have anyone with leadership qualities directing traffic during the game..

Put Eddie back in a forward pocket

 

[DangerousD]

Interested to see which backup ruckman people think we should be targeting if TDK leaves and what they would cost?

In all seriousness, should we be telling Harry to start taking ruck minutes? Could he actually benefit from time in the ruck? Would the team?

 

[gadj1976]

In all seriousness, should we be telling Harry to start taking ruck minutes? Could he actually benefit from time in the ruck? Would the team?

There is saying about never putting your Ferrari's in ruck. Currently Harry is a broken down Datto 120Y. So yeh, why not, what's the worst thing he can do?

 

[DangerousD]

Yeah, I get that, but it doesn’t do that.
I want the number 1 pick winning the B&F we’ve had plenty of them, u would be more worried if they weren’t the best player.

Of course I agree about wanting the number 1 pick to be AA and winning B&Fs, maybe not the best analogy, but over that 15 year period our drafting has been horrendous.

 

[Prem17]

Not all bs, but missing the mark with Boyd and Saad.

Everyone has an opinion.
Mine is that Boyd gets out-positioned way too often. He has a good kick on him but doesn't get it often enough for it to be a factor.

As for Saad, he was great last yeah when he was able to attack but this year other clubs haven't given him the freedom.
He often gets corralled to towards the boundary line on his wrong side because everyone knows that he is extremely reluctant to kick on his right.

Just because people are wearing a navy blue jumper doesn't mean we shouldn't look at what's in front of us now, otherwise problems will never be corrected.

 

[DangerousD]

No, a rebuild of assistant coaches, particularly midfield is a absolute must.

It seems like this is what the football department will point to as what needs fixing. The same football department who thought they were the right coaches in 2022 when we just missed finals and in 2023 as well.

Would the football department not be aware we didn’t have a good coaching set up?

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

How we interpret those wins will depend on our current views of the list or views at the time, the facts are we won 9 out of the first 13 games and agreed we nearly could have lost a few more, we also lost quite a few close games.

I agree with most that the list needs a freshen up with youth, just not sure if the club thinks trading big names on big $$$$ is the right way to go.

I was and always will be critical of Silvagni time as list boss, but one thing I thought he did very well was, moving on players who had high currency who he thought wouldn’t be around when we were contending. The players that fit that description now are.

Doc (30 this year)
Saad (29 this year)
Williams (29 this year)
Cripps (28 this year)
Hewett (28 this year)

I don’t see the club wanting to or willing to trade any of these guys and players like Dow, Fisher, Gov, Kennedy would only get you 2nds, 3rd or 4th round picks, hardly enough to inject top end quality to the list.

Our biggest dilemma in my opinion is that I think (based on the media, Cooks comments, last years trade period) we have no cap space.

Not sure if i am completley deluded in my thinking, but we should not be giving up on being able to compete within the next 2-3 years and all of these players will be critical to that. Although Collingwood had previously played finals, but if you consider they didnt feel the need to trade Sidebottom, Pendles, Cox & Adams when they dipped and turfed out Buckley.. and these players have been critical to what the team have become.

They did have to trade out assets in Treloar and Grundy to free up cash, to then be able to bring in players who filled needs like Tom Mitchell and Bobby Hill. I am just concerned we dont have any tradeable assets with the exception of TDK.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Just reading now, some strange things to say.. Mentioned the Camporeale twins next year as the reason to trade next years first into this uyears draft.. What have the Campo twins done this year to suggest they will lbe first round selections. from what i can see they didn't even make the cut for SANFL team..

Also some of these are bizarre... keep Akuei, has he even watched him play.. Fogarty uncertain.. Philp Keep. All 3 of these will be told to go Mad Monday..

DRAFT HAND No.4, 58, 67, 76
* Traded pick 22 for Jaxon Binns and pick 40 for Blake Acres last year; received pick 67 from Essendon in Will Setterfield deal
OUT OF CONTRACT

Domanic Akuei — keep

Alex Cincotta — keep

David Cuningham — keep (need speed)

Ed Curnow — uncertain

Tom De Koning — attempt to keep (could request trade)

Paddy Dow — trade

Sam Durdin — delist (injury-prone)

Lachie Fogarty — uncertain

Josh Honey — keep

Brodie Kemp — keep

Lachie Plowman — delist

Caleb Marchbank — delist (injury-prone)

Mitch McGovern — trade or re-sign on less than $400,000 (on $800,000)

Nic Newman — keep

Hudson O’Keeffe — keep

Sam Philp — keep (need speed)

Jack Silvagni — keep (free agent, could leave if De Koning stays)

Philp for me seems a no brainer to leave but I guess if it’s one season on minimum wage for him or 2 years to a pick 86 in what might be a shallow draft he might get another season.
I think we keep one of Philps or Honey.

 

[DangerousD]

That is a horrific call on Riewoldt.. But I do agree on the leadership aspect.. Our mids have Crips & Walsh and our backs have Doc & Weiters as strong leaders but forwards dont have anyone with leadership qualities directing traffic during the game..

What’s horrific about the suggestion? Leadership aside, Jacks output is still high, regardless of his age. Looking back on how he used to play, compared to his game since they started being successful, he is a great example of a on field leader.

 

[gadj1976]

Of course I agree about wanting the number 1 pick to be AA and winning B&Fs, maybe not the best analogy, but over that 15 year period our drafting has been horrendous.

Drafting, or development?

 

[charred_fate]

Everyone has an opinion.
Mine is that Boyd gets out-positioned way too often. He has a good kick on him but doesn't get it often enough for it to be a factor.

As for Saad, he was great last yeah when he was able to attack but this year other clubs haven't given him the freedom.
He often gets corralled to towards the boundary line on his wrong side because everyone knows that he is extremely reluctant to kick on his right.

Just because people are wearing a navy blue jumper doesn't mean we shouldn't look at what's in front of us now, otherwise problems will never be corrected.

Absolutely and I never shy away from criticising our players.

Saad has been ordinary since he dropped that ‘speccy’ in Adelaide. But to say he was never a good defender is not true - is actually his best quality a lot the time.. and Bombers’ supporters who I know felt it was completely underrated, which I now agree with. (This isn’t to say that I don’t think we handled the trade poorly… which is to say that I do think we handled the trade poorly!)

Boyd is one of our toughest players and has played ~10 games. He’s a lovely kick and backs himself. People are quick to negatively judge players who aren’t top draft picks. If he were a top 10 ND selection, I’m sure most would see the positives. At this stage, he’s looking like a steal imo.

 

[DangerousD]

Not sure if i am completley deluded in my thinking, but we should not be giving up on being able to compete within the next 2-3 years and all of these players will be critical to that. Although Collingwood had previously played finals, but if you consider they didnt feel the need to trade Sidebottom, Pendles, Cox & Adams when they dipped and turfed out Buckley.. and these players have been critical to what the team have become.

They did have to trade out assets in Treloar and Grundy to free up cash, to then be able to bring in players who filled needs like Tom Mitchell and Bobby Hill. I am just concerned we dont have any tradeable assets with the exception of TDK.

I agree that we still should be aiming for success in 2-3, but as you mentioned, the Pies moved Treloar, Grundy and Stephenson, who are our Treloar, Grundy, Stephenson?

We have plenty of players with currency on the list, its just who the coaching team thinks is expendable or will allow us to move forward in other areas.

Getherald mentioned the other day about Port refreshing their list a few years ago which allowed them to draft Rozee, Butters and Duursma which was true, I reminded him that to do that, Port traded a 25 year old, two time AA, Best and fairest winner who averaged 1.7 goals per game.

Who are we willing to move on who is even close to that?

 

[DangerousD]

Drafting, or development?

I would say mostly drafting as these players haven’t then moved to other clubs and been successful.