List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Crippa#9]

After being at the Hawks game - no chance at all. I think if TDK leaves we need to pull out all stops and go after Sean Darcy

Unless they’re a Gawn or a Dean Cox, not a fan of paying ruckmen massive $$.

Would rather we write the big cheques for elite mids, ball users or Key talls.

 

[katmanblue]

We will need to get creative. Not sure Fish even nets us a pick within the top 40 at the moment. His value is low. Trading him for any less is not worth it as he can turn it around, hence the appeal.

TDK will bring in a strong pick and we can play with our future first. I have no issue replacing our bottom few (Honey/Philp) with late picks as we don't lose out in 2024 but we can't just flick valuable depth for nothing.

WC 3rd would be in that vicinity. 40-45ish I think might balloon out a bit further.

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[katmanblue]

Don't know but if he's keen to go I certainly wouldn't be fighting to keep him. If he wants to stay fine, same as Mcgov... but if either want to play elsewhere id take whatever pick we can get for each of them and march on to 2024.

Gov def wants to stay.

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[katmanblue]

Owies, Martin, Fogerty & Cuningham all gel well together...

Two flashy and two honest hard workers. I think it's a good combination.


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[Michael Jezz]

Question, if TDK leaves do we think Young could take over as a permanent ruck, we seem to be playing better without him in the back line?

No Young is not physical enough to be a top line afl big man. He is a back up tall at best

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

If Geelong do get TDK.. then I’d be asking for Esava and late first rounder.

you must be a Cats supporter.

Esava would be an early 3rd rounder on a good day....

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

No Young is not physical enough to be a top line afl big man. He is a back up tall at best

not yet....give him time.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

There was a marked difference in the way Young and JSOS contested the ruck. Young largely tried to body his opponent, and was generally out-muscled, out-positioned. JSOS stood off and leapt into the contest. Both of Hawthorn's rucks, despite being much taller, weren't getting off the ground, and JSOS was able to exploit this. It won't work against Jackson though. Also shows how useful TDK would have been with his leap.

Jackson is one of the most overrated players in the comp.

 

[DangerousD]

I can see your angle the Bulldogs got Dunkley with one of the picks we traded for Charlie but they also got a player that didn't make it.
Imo we need a Degoey, Martin type Reid is the one this year, with the list we have assembled think this type of player is the missing piece that would push us into the top 4.

I agree with the type of player we need, although I think we need a few different types, just that 2 or even 3 picks in the top 10 would be a much better outcome than one player at pock 1.

 

[DangerousD]

WC 3rd would be in that vicinity. 40-45ish I think might balloon out a bit further.

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WC has two thirds, one at 37 and one at the very end 50 odd, I’d be pushing for 37 but we might have to include the * 4th rounder, but I’m sure WC will bring in some other picks from senior players.

 

[Jeremias]

From the list players who have played in a grandfinal since 2017
Stanley, Hickey, Gawn, Nankervis, Grundy, Lycett - Every single one of them maybe with the exception of Stanley last year would have been rated in the top 10 rucks in the comp in their premiership year.

That’s not really what I asked, but since you’re clearly reluctant to answer, I’ll do it for you.

Top 10: 2 (Gawn, Nankervis)
Bottom 15: 2 (Lycett, Stanley)

Now it should be clear to all why you were reluctant - it sort of disproves the point you’re trying to make.

As for where they were rated, what rating system are you wanting to use?

I won't use AFL player ratings, because they're just about impossible to find. If you have them, feel free to put them forward.
Instead I'll use Wheelo, which I've found much easier to use and very insightful.

AFL Player Statistics

AFL player statistics.

www.wheeloratings.com

Looking at the players you put forward, but broadening the criteria a little to their GF years given Hickey isn't a premiership player, we have:

Stanley
2022 - 22nd
2020 - 7th

Hickey
2022 - 16th

Gawn
2021 - 5th

Nankervis
2020 - 8th
2019 - 33rd
2017 - 11th

Grundy
2018 - 2nd

Lycett
2018 - 21st

Every single one of them? Not quite - less than half, actually.
Sorry but it just seems you're way off the mark on this one.

 

[The Bighouse]

Also I believe Young signed an extension with us earlier this year? Would have to be a huge falling out to want to move on so soon afterwards so hoping its just make believe.

2026…
Can we have our 2nd round pick back??

 

[Jeremias]

2026…
Can we have our 2nd round pick back??

We didn't trade a 2nd round pick for Young.

 

[TENACIOUS]

Link to Pies Rumour?

Interesting bit of body language I observed at the Hawks game, I think it must have been around the time he was reported, Young jogged past Weiters and gave him a consoling pat on the shoulder, and Weiters appeared to pull away from him like he was pissed off. Not sure what to read into it but it didn't look positive.

I saw it to, unless it was another occasion...
It was right in front of us, it was when Young didn't spoil the ball and just watched the hawks player mark it...

Young was looking for an "it's OK" from Weitering and Weitering cold shouldered him

 

[TENACIOUS]

Hope TDK stays...

Then we add a McLean or Chol type, then we have 2x Rucks that can also forward...

 

[Arr0w]

If TDK leaves....

Matthew Flynn, free, like no draft picks free

Then focus on needs that matter

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

If TDK leaves....

Matthew Flynn, free, like no draft picks free

Then focus on needs that matter

Flynn, Dylan Stephens and Cumberland/Gresham my 3 picks that would cost us peanuts, then take three early picks to the draft with whatever we get for TDK and our 2023 & 2024 picks.

Would love to get Dylan Williams from Port but the way he's playing and the way they're going I'm doubtful he'll be leaving.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

That’s not really what I asked, but since you’re clearly reluctant to answer, I’ll do it for you.

Top 10: 2 (Gawn, Nankervis)
Bottom 15: 2 (Lycett, Stanley)

Now it should be clear to all why you were reluctant - it sort of disproves the point you’re trying to make.

As for where they were rated, what rating system are you wanting to use?

I won't use AFL player ratings, because they're just about impossible to find. If you have them, feel free to put them forward.
Instead I'll use Wheelo, which I've found much easier to use and very insightful.

AFL Player Statistics

AFL player statistics.

www.wheeloratings.com

Looking at the players you put forward, but broadening the criteria a little to their GF years given Hickey isn't a premiership player, we have:

Stanley
2022 - 22nd
2020 - 7th

Hickey
2022 - 16th

Gawn
2021 - 5th

Nankervis
2020 - 8th
2019 - 33rd
2017 - 11th

Grundy
2018 - 2nd

Lycett
2018 - 21st

Every single one of them? Not quite - less than half, actually.
Sorry but it just seems you're way off the mark on this one.

Any set of stats that had Max Gawn as the 5th best ruck in 2021 is worthless, I will take All Australian as the measure that he was rated the best ruck in the comp in the premiership year.

 

[carlton_99]

Any set of stats that had Max Gawn as the 5th best ruck in 2021 is worthless, I will take All Australian as the measure that he was rated the best ruck in the comp in the premiership year.

Was the best player in the comp during that period imo - unbelievable what he can do

 

[The Bighouse]

We didn't trade a 2nd round pick for Young.

Talking about our future 2nd handed over to Collingwood last year for the Cowan selection.
If they want LY, we want our 2nd back.

 

[Arr0w]

Doesn't make sense Pies wanting Young

 

[Jeremias]

Any set of stats that had Max Gawn as the 5th best ruck in 2021 is worthless, I will take All Australian as the measure that he was rated the best ruck in the comp in the premiership year.

Ok, take Gawn in 2021 out of the equation and I dare say you’re still on the wrong side of the ledger.

“Every single one of them maybe with the exception of Stanley last year would have been rated in the top 10 rucks in the comp in their premiership year.”

By who? Using what measure or ratings system?

 

[Coona Blues]

Doesn't make sense Pies wanting Young

Absolutely it does. They are thin for both Key Position and ruck options. The yank and Howe are both getting on, Dean and Krueger struggle to get on the park, as does McStay atm. Then they have some kids developing, including Aiden Begg who also has struggled to get any continuity. Frampton has become Mr Fixit, being utilised as a ruck/forward after being recruited as defensive depth.

They seem to like budget priced talls and focus on speed around the ball. Their heavy focus on empowering players and concentrating on what they do well, would absolutely be likely to bring out the best in Young. His best is VERY good.

Would be very sorry to see him go, but if the rumour “has legs” and their are irreconcilable differences between Lewis and a club leader who plays in the same area of the ground, we are better served to rationalise and look to the future.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

It's funny though. Briggs wasn't thought too highly of a couple of months back. Cameron was barely known before he moved to Collingwood. Nankervis hadn't done much at Sydney either. Don't think they'd have cost much to acquire at the time. On the flipside you've got Jackson & Grundy, two established players, coming across on sizable contracts.

Who is considered a top line ruck at the moment and how many are there in the comp?

O'Brien, McInnerney, Pittonet/De Koning, Cameron/Cox, Darcy/Jackson, Draper/Phillps, Witts, Stanley, Briggs, Reeves/Meek, Gawn/Grundy, Goldstein/Xerri, Lycett, Nankervis, Marshall, Hickey, English, Naitanui

That's 25 names, 11 standout solo rucks and 7 notable pairs. They're not all great and some of the good ones are in bottom-10 teams. I'd argue the only real top-line rucks in the top 8, based on current/recent form, are English and Marshall, and there's daylight between the two.

I just want a competitor, mobile enough to get around the ground and can take a mark but also big enough to provide a physical presence at stoppage/CB, who is fit enough to play big minutes and largely durable so we can get some consistency & continuity going (& not rely on other players having to step up & ruck).

Also we lost the hitouts yesterday 61-27. It's just that our mids really outperformed theirs, despite their two rucks getting hands to the ball about 2-1/4 times more than Young & Silvagni.

Jarrod Witts would do me, for a career twilight arrangement.
What would that cost us and what are his negatives?

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Ok, take Gawn in 2021 out of the equation and I dare say you’re still on the wrong side of the ledger.

“Every single one of them maybe with the exception of Stanley last year would have been rated in the top 10 rucks in the comp in their premiership year.”

By who? Using what measure or ratings system?

No i think you, and some people and even some coaches are stuck on a theory that rucks are not important. IMO this is blatantly wrong, they are one of the key pieces of any good team. They should never be your highest paid player, but your #1 should certainly be in the top 10 highest paid at the club. Having a poor ruck hurts you more often than not, particularly when they come up against one of the good ones. The better rucks in the comp are able to compete in the centre and at boundary throw ins, follow up/ block and influence the clearance but even more importantly become outlets for long kicks down a line, contested marks or become a key player holding up space, defending territory and taking intercept marks, the elite rucks are able to drift forward and become goal kicking weapons. A lot of this influence on a game is not measured in stats.

Of our 2 rucks, TDK has the ability to most of these, but doesn't do it enough. Pitto only competes at centre square, he gets destroyed at boundary throw ins and is a liability around the ground especially when matched up against a ruck who can influence a game and for a number of years has been the biggest hole in our side, the failure to at least get in the Grundy conversation is one of the worst list management decisions since Malthouse selling our entire forward line and replacing it with Daisy Thomas.

I dont look for stats to back up my views, I watch a lot of footy and form my views based on watching the game and backing in my own feel for the game and the influence a player is having on a game. I will only use stats to verify or disprove a view that I have but is never the basis of the view.