Training 2023 Pre-season thread

[martinson]

I'd say Joyce is more like for like than Greene, but Greene projects to be a Gardiner type player, taking the third tall. He has shown great signs in the role and if we were confident in Dizzy to play on the second tall it could have worked. Still, you'd assume Joyce has shown enough to prove a better prospect than Dizzy on the second tall.

Obviously the coaches recognise a potential hole in defence if things don't pan out ,they would've done their DD , and it's likely we went for Joyce because he was the best of whoever was available.

We've certainly got enough defenders who can play at AFL level . Maybe we rejig the structure if there aren't enough talls , or just go with a Joyce and get him to focus solely on defence and leave it up to the others to mop up.

Greene has shown promise for sure and is getting to the age where he should start to improve.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Given how much every single AFL coach (and VFL coach... and SANFL coach... and WAFL coach and...) bars up over defence, it's unlikely. Maybe it's time for a 'bazball' revolution in footy? If anyone has the potency for it, it's us.

I just want to put this out there now so I can say "you read it here first" if this ever becomes a thing, completely acknowledging that I'm probably going to sound completely bonkers. Bear with me.

Zone defences essentially were restricted to the domain of opposition kick outs after behinds from the mid 80s (I think? I wasn't watching footy then; too young) in response to the huddle, which I believe was originally pioneered by Robert Walls at Fitzroy. (?)

Then along came flooding in the 90s, before Clarko's Cluster put a bit more rigidity and structure into the way that zone functioned in general play. Malthouse with Collingwood in 2010 moved the defensive zone to shift more with the play itself, to become more of a forward press than a pure defensive zone. Thus we now see all 18 players within a kick and a half of the ball, much of the time.

Then Melbourne essentially (I believe) mastered the zone defence in 2021. Force long kicks up the line for May and Lever to pick off.

The next evolution in the game (and this comes back to Mr Ripper's comment), is the way teams use a zone defence not so much as method of defending, but rather as the foundation of a team's attack.

As a consequence, a zone defence is not really a zone defence at all; it's a "Zone Attack".

Think about our defence last year... All our efforts went into pressure on the ball. When our pressure was good, we looked great, when our pressure was no good, we got belted. This is because we put all our eggs in one basket - all our numbers were around the ball, which meant if the ball got clear of the congestion, we'd be outnumbered everywhere else.

What a good zone defence allows us to do is so much more than give us multiple locations where we can cut off an opposition forward thrust... It gives us multiple locations from where we can start our own. And that is mighty hard to defend against.

Circling back to Mr Ripper's point, I completely agree that our playing group, more than any in the league, are well positioned to take advantage of any "bazball" revolution in footy. And that's why I think our coaching group will do well to (if they haven't already) sell to them our (apparent) new and improved defensive method as a "Zone Attack".

 

[martinson]

I just want to put this out there now so I can say "you read it here first" if this ever becomes a thing, completely acknowledging that I'm probably going to sound completely bonkers. Bear with me.

Zone defences essentially were restricted to the domain of opposition kick outs after behinds from the mid 80s (I think? I wasn't watching footy then; too young) in response to the huddle, which I believe was originally pioneered by Robert Walls at Fitzroy. (?)

Then along came flooding in the 90s, before Clarko's Cluster put a bit more rigidity and structure into the way that zone functioned in general play. Malthouse with Collingwood in 2010 moved the defensive zone to shift more with the play itself, to become more of a forward press than a pure defensive zone. Thus we now see all 18 players within a kick and a half of the ball, much of the time.

Then Melbourne essentially (I believe) mastered the zone defence in 2021. Force long kicks up the line for May and Lever to pick off.

The next evolution in the game (and this comes back to Mr Ripper's comment), is the way teams use a zone defence not so much as method of defending, but rather as the foundation of a team's attack.

As a consequence, a zone defence is not really a zone defence at all; it's a "Zone Attack".

Think about our defence last year... All our efforts went into pressure on the ball. When our pressure was good, we looked great, when our pressure was no good, we got belted. This is because we put all our eggs in one basket - all our numbers were around the ball, which meant if the ball got clear of the congestion, we'd be outnumbered everywhere else.

What a good zone defence allows us to do is so much more than give us multiple locations where we can cut off an opposition forward thrust... It gives us multiple locations from where we can start our own. And that is mighty hard to defend against.

Circling back to Mr Ripper's point, I completely agree that our playing group, more than any in the league, are well positioned to take advantage of any "bazball" revolution in footy. And that's why I think our coaching group will do well to (if they haven't already) sell to them our (apparent) new and improved defensive method as a "Zone Attack".

Interesting that we've trialled Rayner there , and brought McKenna in as well. People might have forgotten how effective Zorko was there in the first part of last year.

 

[mattsmob]

Interesting that we've trialled Rayner there , and brought McKenna in as well. People might have forgotten how effective Zorko was there in the first part of last year.

I’ve got memories of Zorko at halfback, not sure they’re all quite as positive as yours though. Honestly I don’t think Rayner is getting trialled there for the actual season. I think it’s more about his development this preseason and also just the fact that we’ve got no size in the backline outside of Andrews right now.

 

[Quigley]

On defense I have been one who advocated strongly for the need to have some additional KPs in our squad.

With that said I think people are forgetting Lester a bit. He is a third tall defender at best but he does provide us some flexibility and would allow Gardner to move over to playing on a tall.

 

[M Malice]

Has Tom Fullarton been playing key defence in the match sims? I hope so.

Still got me beat why no one went for mature KPD prospect Ethan Phillips, he got tremendous write ups about his form in the VFL during the season, must be some knock on him that us wannabe's don't know about, all 18 clubs weren't interested.

 

[mpal6]

I'm not sold on Joyce for no other reason than he hasn't really proven he can play at the level yet . It'd be nice if we could find a tall KPD in case injury strikes which is just as likely as not and Fullarton is the only one as far as I can tell who could potentially take on a role there.

In the interview Joyce mentioned Lions have been keeping tabs on him for the last 2-3 years.

May be we rated him all along and Adams going down + Joyce getting delisted may have neatly aligned things to get him in.

 

[briztoon]

I'm not sold on Joyce for no other reason than he hasn't really proven he can play at the level yet . It'd be nice if we could find a tall KPD in case injury strikes which is just as likely as not and Fullarton is the only one as far as I can tell who could potentially take on a role there.

I don’t believe there were any uncontracted, proven KPD available via the SSP this preseason. Those types of players tend to already be on AFL lists.

 

[Section 5]

Open Intra-Club Games at Brighton Homes Arena

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www.lions.com.au

Upcoming games details

Friday 10 February

Brisbane Lions AFL Intra-club match simulation, Brighton Homes Arena, 4:00pm
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Friday 17 February

Brisbane Lions AFL Intra-club match simulation, Brighton Homes Arena, 4:00pm
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Thursday March 2

Brisbane v Geelong, Brighton Homes Arena, 7:10pm local (8:10pm AEDT)
TICKET INFO COMING SOON

 

[martinson]

I’ve got memories of Zorko at halfback, not sure they’re all quite as positive as yours though. Honestly I don’t think Rayner is getting trialled there for the actual season. I think it’s more about his development this preseason and also just the fact that we’ve got no size in the backline outside of Andrews right now.

That's right especially the development bit but in the back of their minds maybe they're wondering whether he could be an option if we get desperate during the real games.

I know most here thought that Zorks down back would not possibly happen or be a dismal failure if it did and surprisingly some of the media experts put down our winning games with far greater efficiency than the opposition to the difference he made in his time there. Not that they know anything of course. It was funny seeing him on one leg , you'd have to think it was put on but that's never been his form as a player.

I'm looking forward to seeing what he delivers if fully fit as has been reported , especially if used in bursts. Even more interesting the captaincy. After that Melbourne game there was apparently little hope of him playing again let alone have another year as Captain. Fwiiw I think it's time to relinquish it unless he can be what he was 3 years ago.

 

[twhowler]

Agree that any injury to Harris, Dizzy and Payne could create a problem. Recent history shows they won't play all games.
Harris has been fairly good but still missed 1,1,2 and 3 games in the last four years.
Dizzy played every game in 2019 but missed 5,16, 5 then 0 in 2019. Still to join the main training group this year.
Payne is unknow at an AFL full season level but did play 12 games last year.
Payne also has had a small preseason set back which is always a worry for any player.
Also agree Gunston stays forward although he could go back if one of our KPD goes down mid game and we have no other option.

When one or more of these 3 don't play, we will just have to find a suitable replacement in regard to the opposition that week.

It is clearly our area of least depth. It’s such a shame re Adams for both him and the side because i’d actually argue that our depth was good with him in - Payne as the big key back, Lester as the third tall spare. 2 players that are perfectly decent as afl tall defenders as depth is pretty good. Anyway on to reality:

Harris - seems to have had a good pre season.

Gardiner - shoulder surgery. Still 3 weeks away. Would be a tad rusty round 1.

Payne - played first match sim. Anyone know why he missed second?

Lester - again was he missing anyone know why?

Joyce - seems like an okay stopped of the big units at best

It’s not a great look but we do have a few more weeks.

 

[Mighty Lions]

That's right especially the development bit but in the back of their minds maybe they're wondering whether he could be an option if we get desperate during the real games.

I know most here thought that Zorks down back would not possibly happen or be a dismal failure if it did and surprisingly some of the media experts put down our winning games with far greater efficiency than the opposition to the difference he made in his time there. Not that they know anything of course. It was funny seeing him on one leg , you'd have to think it was put on but that's never been his form as a player.

I'm looking forward to seeing what he delivers if fully fit as has been reported , especially if used in bursts. Even more interesting the captaincy. After that Melbourne game there was apparently little hope of him playing again let alone have another year as Captain. Fwiiw I think it's time to relinquish it unless he can be what he was 3 years ago.

He's lost weight & trimmed down...that doesn't necessarily equate to being fit. Currently carrying a hammy.

Agree its time for a new captain.

 

[Grasshopper17]

On Rayner's position, I don't really have a dog in this fight either way, but a couple of observations.

Our defence looked much more stable last year through the first 9 rounds, when Zorko spent far more time in defence than he did later in the season. Not saying the two are necessarily related but there did seem to be a pattern there.

Going back further we have the more famous example of Jason Akermanis spending 1999 in the back pocket and being named All Australian, en route to becoming the Brownlow medallist in a premiership team in 2001. So there's a pretty strong precedent there if we decide to do something similar with Rayner.

(Also Akermanis in 1999 arguably set the mould for a whole host of back pockets to follow... Wanganeen and Pickett in 2004 spring most readily to mind )

 

[martinson]

On Rayner's position, I don't really have a dog in this fight either way, but a couple of observations.

Our defence looked much more stable last year through the first 9 rounds, when Zorko spent far more time in defence than he did later in the season. Not saying the two are necessarily related but there did seem to be a pattern there.

Going back further we have the more famous example of Jason Akermanis spending 1999 in the back pocket and being named All Australian, en route to becoming the Brownlow medallist in a premiership team in 2001. So there's a pretty strong precedent there if we decide to do something similar with Rayner.

(Also Akermanis in 1999 arguably set the mould for a whole host of back pockets to follow... Wanganeen and Pickett in 2004 spring most readily to mind )

If you're a good enough team to have a gun player who could play anywhere in your defensive half it's like gold.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Don’t stress about the backline- with our midfield it ain’t going down back.

 

[Morbidly_Obese]

Payne - played first match sim. Anyone know why he missed second?

He was so good in the first game that they sat him out in the 2nd game to make it fair for everyone else.

 

[mighty_lions]

He was so good in the first game that they sat him out in the 2nd game to make it fair for everyone else.

I don't think he played the first game but I could be wrong

 

[jfn]

It is clearly our area of least depth. It’s such a shame re Adams for both him and the side because i’d actually argue that our depth was good with him in - Payne as the big key back, Lester as the third tall spare. 2 players that are perfectly decent as afl tall defenders as depth is pretty good. Anyway on to reality:

Harris - seems to have had a good pre season.

Gardiner - shoulder surgery. Still 3 weeks away. Would be a tad rusty round 1.

Payne - played first match sim. Anyone know why he missed second?

Lester - again was he missing anyone know why?

Joyce - seems like an okay stopped of the big units at best

It’s not a great look but we do have a few more weeks.

I think Berry is ideal to be used to negate a third tall or a mid sized forward. I’ve been flogging this option all summer. He has a defensive mindset, proved this on Oliver in the 2022 finals. He’s big enough at 192 cm, about the same as Gardiner, Adams and Lester. That’s the same basic size as Stewart and Henry at Geelong or Vlastuin or Grimes at Richmond. He’s got a bit of that backman mongrel about him too.
I know just about every armchair expert has him on the wing this year, but there are plenty of other options for the wing. With the arrival of Dunkley and the development of Robertson, there should be improved midfield defence without relying on Berry.
I’d like to see greater flexibility and thought this year.

 

[Thomasno]

Don’t stress about the backline- with our midfield it ain’t going down back.

Agree with this, I think if we sort our defensive issues in the midfield/forward line it won’t be an issue.

A big part of why our defence got “tested” so much last year was because of poor team defence, so the ball would just slingshot back there fairly regularly. A better team defence gives our backs more time to set up, and hopefully less d50 entries in general

 

[Viceregal]

Don’t stress about the backline- with our midfield it ain’t going down back.

I know you didn't mean it litterally but our percentage would look pretty good if we were never scored against! (excpet for that whole divide by zero thing ... maybe would need to make it a notional 1 point against so as not to crash the speadsheets)

 

[martinson]

I know you didn't mean it litterally but our percentage would look pretty good if we were never scored against! (excpet for that whole divide by zero thing ... maybe would need to make it a notional 1 point against so as not to crash the speadsheets)

Is anyone else a little bemused that we're over hyping ourselves this year.

Seems to be a lot more interest in the pre season games . Much expectation.

It looks like we'll be a better team on paper. We're not the only ones who think they'll improve.

I think hardly anyone tipped Geelong to win the flag last year ,and Melbourne before that ,no one.

 

[twhowler]

He's lost weight & trimmed down...that doesn't necessarily equate to being fit. Currently carrying a hammy.

Agree its time for a new captain.

Strain or something more minor?

 

[Tassie4ever]

Is anyone else a little bemused that we're over hyping ourselves this year.

Seems to be a lot more interest in the pre season games . Much expectation.

It looks like we'll be a better team on paper. We're not the only ones who think they'll improve.

I think hardly anyone tipped Geelong to win the flag last year ,and Melbourne before that ,no one.

Exactamondo. It's just a pity the game isn't played on paper, or we'd be world beaters.

It bemuses me the consistent flak Zorko seems to cop around these pages. Sure, he is prone to the odd melt-down. Personally I put it down to the frustration he must sometimes feel about the commitment levels he perceives from those around him. From bigger people. I forgive him the occasional transgression. One thing you can never throw at him is a lack of endeavour. Reminds me a bit of the crap Robinson routinely copped when to my uneducated eye he was often one of the few having a red hot go whatever the circumstances.

As to our backline, Blind Freddy could see we had real problems off the back half last season and before. Unless we correct this it's difficult to see how we might take a further step forward. Let's hope.

 

[briztoon]

Is anyone else a little bemused that we're over hyping ourselves this year.

Seems to be a lot more interest in the pre season games . Much expectation.

It looks like we'll be a better team on paper. We're not the only ones who think they'll improve.

I think hardly anyone tipped Geelong to win the flag last year ,and Melbourne before that ,no one.

I don’t believe we’re overhyping ourselves.

We should be premiership favourites, in my eyes. Geelong and Melbourne up there as well.

Yes it’s very hard to win it all, but we’re in the best position we have been, for nigh on 20 years, to have a red hot crack.

It’ll come down to luck and injury, as it does for most top clubs.

 

[martinson]

I don’t believe we’re overhyping ourselves.

We should be premiership favourites, in my eyes. Geelong and Melbourne up there as well.

Yes it’s very hard to win it all, but we’re in the best position we have been, for nigh on 20 years, to have a red hot crack.

It’ll come down to luck and injury, as it does for most top clubs.

Undoubtedly it will.

I'd have Geelong favs. It took them a long time to crack it and they seem a bit stronger to me this year , the downside being no Selwood and a few others that bit older. But they have a reasonably deep list. And the confidence that they are good enough.

One or two clubs will emerge as they always do. Everyone's probably potting Collingwood again. Wouldn't surprise me if they're very competitive.