List Mgmt. 2024 List Management Part 2 📃

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agro said:
Hawthorn rebuild in (what) 3 years with no real high draft picks and no real big name trades - we’ve had this (66 game reset 🤣) since 2016 🤣
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Bit of a misnomer, hawks been rebuilding since around 2019 or so.

Also they haven’t achieved anything we haven’t with this current build yet.

Don’t assume that their progression will be linear either (I fall into this trap( and they will just be top 4 the rest of the decade.
 
carlton_99 said:
Just with Pittonet seeing quite a few saying to trade him because he "isn't good enough". Can anyone name another back-up ruck in the comp that is better? Look at just the finals teams - I don't know if I can even name the back-up ruck for Swans, Giants, or Lions. And TDK does have a bit of an injury history so we do need someone half-decent in case.

Edit: Just looked up the GWS list and apparently Preuss (who is their 2nd ruck) is still in the AFL system - thought he retired last year for some reason.
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Pitt is safe, we need Okeefe to be able to challenge for best 23 spot next year
 
Hawthorn sold high and bought low..

Can we avoid the classic mistake of selling low and buying high? Realistically, there are probably only three untouchable players at this club. Some might be worth little more than a others, most players should be considered while their value remains high.

At our best, we move like a locomotive stream train at our worst, we're more like the Temu express orient.

What’s clear is that there are definite gaps within team's structure, and I don’t believe they’re solely due to injuries.
 
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Soapy V said:
Agree. We have Cripps Kemp and Charlie that are tall and have midfield minutes

Walsh Cerra Wilson Docherty Lord are the smaller players but only Wilson has genuine leg speed

Now we need to add names like Garcia & Sheldrick and hopefully a gun draftee or 2
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I think what we also lack is a real lower set player with good agility. Your Lachie Neale or Tom Mitchell/Sam Mitchell type as well as outside run. Viney in Melbourne premiership. Daniel in the Bulldogs premiership. Diesel, us etc etc. Nearly all the top sides have a small nuggety centreman. Walsh is the closest thing we have. Cerra is slow, he's got slower and lacks mobility. I think his fitness has gone to crap. Hewett, Cripps and Kennedy are straight line runners who also lack outside speed.

Gee our backline looked like stunned mullets when we had it the other night, nowhere to go, midfield just lacking in hard/fast running players who read the game well and give options. We probably failed to open space forward of the ball as well.

At one stage last season we had Cripps struggling, Cerra out and Docherty and Dow playing midfield and we looked better than we have all this season.

That's what we need in the draft, draft a few ready made and a few youngsters and hope we can adjust our list. Gee we have been slow to do anything. I've known for the last three seasons, how have we brought in only Lord in this year's MSD?
Voss had his favorite midfield in and it got a belting from the 5th place team. I hope that really stamps what I've been saying for 3 seasons on coaching and list management.

I hope we get the names you have mentioned. Just hope the coach doesn't plonk them on flanks and in pockets. I am hoping Ben Camporealy is also a tackling machine with a solid outside game.

The game is at a point where I wouldn't consider anyone who is slow unless they are a special talent.
 
gbatman said:
I think what we also lack is a real lower set player with good agility. Your Lachie Neale or Tom Mitchell/Sam Mitchell type as well as outside run. Viney in Melbourne premiership. Daniel in the Bulldogs premiership. Diesel, us etc etc. Nearly all the top sides have a small nuggety centreman. Walsh is the closest thing we have. Cerra is slow, he's got slower and lacks mobility. I think his fitness has gone to crap. Hewett, Cripps and Kennedy are straight line runners who also lack outside speed.

Gee our backline looked like stunned mullets when we had it the other night, nowhere to go, midfield just lacking in hard/fast running players who read the game well and give options. We probably failed to open space forward of the ball as well.

At one stage last season we had Cripps struggling, Cerra out and Docherty and Dow playing midfield and we looked better than we have all this season.

That's what we need in the draft, draft a few ready made and a few youngsters and hope we can adjust our list. Gee we have been slow to do anything. I've known for the last three seasons, how have we brought in only Lord in this year's MSD?
Voss had his favorite midfield in and it got a belting from the 5th place team. I hope that really stamps what I've been saying for 3 seasons on coaching and list management.

I hope we get the names you have mentioned. Just hope the coach doesn't plonk them on flanks and in pockets. I am hoping Ben Camporealy is also a tackling machine with a solid outside game.

The game is at a point where I wouldn't consider anyone who is slow unless they are a special talent.
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Yep agree!!!

Cripps, Cerra, Walsh and Kennedy. The only person who goes into our midfield that changes the dynamic in a really positive way is the ruckman TDK.

When you rely on a ruck to be your dynamic player in the centre, you’re already behind.
 
Speed kills, and we don’t have it.

www.3aw.com.au

'One paced': AFL great exposes Carlton's big problem

Leigh Matthews says Carlton’s lack of quick game-breaking midfielders was brutally exposed in their Elimination Final defeat to Brisbane on Saturday night. The Blues were badly exposed in their 28-point loss to the Lions, with their season now finished following last year’s Preliminary Final...
www.3aw.com.au www.3aw.com.au
 
Give our salary cap position and the looming re-signing of Weitering and TDK which are priorities IMO, I’ve tempered my expectation on bringing in a star as there just doesn’t seem to be any real gossip out there that we are doing anything other than looking at Haynes. Even Rosas doesn’t seem to be in the frame despite being available and playing a spot we have a need for. So I really don’t expect much more in terms of bringing mature players in other than maybe giving Liam McMahon a rookie spot after the good year he has had.

That said I do hope we are active in the draft and look at how we can get both Travaglia and Berry through the door. I’d imagine it would involve us giving up a future first to get back into the first round but I thin it would be worth it as both give us some players with speed. Also I suspect if we lose we lose Owies it will be for a late mid/late second so or our current second could then be used to get Camporeale with the other second used to get O’Farrell.

Delist Marchbank, Cunningham, S Durdin, Mirkov and Akeui
Trade or delist Martin
Trade Owies, Jack Carroll
Draft Travaglia, Berry, Ben Campo, O’Farrell, Charlie McCartin
Trade in Haynes
Rookie McMahon and Luca Campo

Finally I think part of the list management also needs to be re-purposing a few players for example I’d look at the following:
- Jack Silvagni is mover down back
- Williams and Kemp stay forward and we trial Saad as a small forward too
- Ollie starts getting a run through the middle
- Elijah evolves into the dynamic mid/forward player we desperately need

I think we also need look at our list through the lens of:
- only ever playing 1 ruck (so Pittonet only plays when TDK is injured) and having a forward (McKay) as relief ruck
- Hewett and Kennedy cannot play in the same team together

We could line something like as follows:
Cowan Weitering McGovern
Boyd Silvagni Newman
Acres Cripps Binns
Elijah McKay Williams
Saad Charlie Kemp
TDK Cerra Walsh
Hewett Ollie Moir Docherty
Next level Haynes, Kennedy, Lord, Berry, Travaglia, Ben Campo, Motlop, Young, Wilson

It might not sound exciting right now but I’m backing in the current group for another year. The hurt of how this season has finished should drive a lot of players as will the fact multiple players are coming out of contract. Combine that with better availability due to a slightly better injury run under a new regime. ridding ourselves of the perennially injured players who’ve left our lists bare and a fair bit of internal improvement, and I think we can get to where we need.

But the clock is ticking and if we have another season like this one, the end of 2025 could be the time to make major changes (ie coach, football manager and list manager change, move on the likes of Cerra, Saad, Kennedy, Hewett, Doc, Gov, Williams, Motlop, Durdin, Pittonet).
 
TheBlueCampaigner said:
Untouchables:

TDK
Cripps
Weitering
Harry
Charlie

The rest can be traded/delisted/retired as far as I'm concerned. Inject some pace, decision makers and foot skills. Need to be ruthless.
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Walsh is untouchable. I’d also add the Hollands brothers and Cowan to that list as well. Everyone else is fair game.
 
Beyond Blue said:
Walsh is untouchable. I’d also add the Hollands brothers and Cowan to that list as well. Everyone else is fair game.
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Walsh agree but the Hollands brothers definitely tradeable.

Ollie, statistically, is only showing a minor upgrade on Lochie O'Brien's output. Accept that he has upside however.
Elijah has been a win relatively to what we gave up for him but he's a nice 19 touch, 1 goal a game type player at present and those aren't overly hard to find.

Guys like that are easily replaceable IMO.
 
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Crippa#9 said:
Walsh agree but the Hollands brothers definitely tradeable.

Ollie, statistically, is only showing a minor upgrade on Lochie O'Brien's output. Accept that he has upside however.
Elijah has been a win relatively to what we gave up for him but he's a nice 19 touch, 1 goal a game type player at present and those aren't overly hard to find.

Guys like that are easily replaceable IMO.
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A high half forward that averages almost 20 and 1 are incredibly difficult to find. Outside of Dylan Moore can't think of many others that are doing that.
 

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top 8 this year was about right....do have the elites to pull off a flag right now however just need that rare combo of match fitness plus NO injuries....i have to be skeptical about our mid depth and general depth as indicated by this yr
walsh really looks an elite winger/mid
hewett can be good then gets dropped same as kennedy..even cerra can be average at times

we need elite mid
we need elite small forward
backs will be ok..hb is quite good.....defense only fall apart when midfield broken

we will soon have a glut of wingers with campo draft?

if we nail the draft and trade....next year Carlton will still be one of the favourites for a flag and i think with some luck....it could be about time
 
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WalshistheGOAT said:
I think the key to either combination being more effective comes back to the half forwards again. 2 rucks when we have low output smalls is a recipe for disaster imo, why I somewhat liked when Jack was playing 2nd fiddle ruck. He wasn't great in the ruck contest but he was great at providing a link in forward chains and playing almost as a half forward rather than a traditional ruck.
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Our best ruck combo we have had in recent memory was TDK & JSOS.. it just worked.

Coast and Cripps love Pitto but I think the back half of this year has been a wake up call to how much he hurts our team.. His inability to be a target option out of defence meant we got jammed in a D50 too many times.
 
ItsAllAboutMe said:
Our best ruck combo we have had in recent memory was TDK & JSOS.. it just worked.
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JSOS used to get slaughtered at center bounce. So many times the opposition would get a clean clearance because he couldn't negate the opposition ruck at all.

His follow-up work around the ground was solid though.

I still think the right mix is TDK/McKay.. but we need another marking forward for that to work well.
 
For mine, a two year (two trade period) strategy is needed, as we can't fix all our issues this season given our constraints. The players that we so desperately need may be available end of 2025.

Firstly, Noah Balta is the partner for Weitering that we need. Athletic, has mongrel, and will be 26 at time of signing. RFA in 2025, so Richmond have matching rights, but put a band 1 offer in front of him and I think Richmond take the Pick 2 compo (assuming they get the spoon).

Secondly, Zak Butters is the low-set, zippy mid that we lack. RFA in 2026, so a 'pre-agent' next year. Hinkley contract expires next season, so I think he gets the boot then. Hinkley's pet (Butters) may want a fresh start back in Vic. We must keep our 2025 1st rounder, as the start point for this trade.

Gresham (Orazio/Williams replacement) and Ison (long term Acres/Newman replacement) as NGA talents in 2025 is also a blessing in terms of drafting.

What does that mean for 2024 off-season?

Hit the draft, clear out salary where possible and trust the upcoming kids as players 23-34 on the list. Get the system and dynamic right, and then get the finishing pieces next year.

Invest heavily in small forwards and half forwards. Bargain pick ups of Garcia (WB) and Rosas (GC) is a start.

Use Owies, Pittonet, Kennedy to get 2nd rounders, package them up for Pick 12 from GC (points for Lombard) and go to Melbourne offering Cerra and Pick 12 for Pick 5 and a mid-2nd.

Motlop, Martin and Carroll shipped west for 4th rounders or late future picks.

Use the opened up cap for 2025 to pay TDK and Weiters and bring other payments forward to allow for acquisitions of Butters and Balta end of 2025.

Trainor and Berry in with Picks 5 and 11
Dattoli with our mid-2nd
Match bids for both Campos with our slew of 4ths.

Darcy Macpherson (delisted former GC small defender) and Will White (VFL) as rookies. Matt Duffy in as a Cat B.

Roll with a makeshift Haynes, Trainor or Young at KPD2, until 2026 when we can flick Haynes or McGovern for Balta. Trainor for me is McGovern's long term replacement at 3rd tall interceptor.

Dreaming, I know and its definitely risky - but lets be aggressive and proactive this off-season. I'm ok taking one small step back to set up our next 5 years.
 
kreuze_missile said:
Weitering and Newman are the only defenders we have that can hold their own in 1 on 1 contests.

But even then.. Weitering rarely plays on the opposition's best forward and gets favourable matchups every single week.
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Saad hardly ever gets beaten one on one. He is very strong, for a little fella.
 
Bailey smith has requested a trade from western bulldogs. We should go all in and get him talented player would offer something different to our midfield.
 
jimsta10 said:
Hawthorn sold high and bought low..

Can we avoid the classic mistake of selling low and buying high? Realistically, there are probably only three untouchable players at this club. Some might be worth little more than a others, most players should be considered while their value remains high.

At our best, we move like a locomotive stream train at our worst, we're more like the Temu express orient.

What’s clear is that there are definite gaps within team's structure, and I don’t believe they’re solely due to injuries.
Click to expand...

We bought high and everything crashed and we holding the bags.

McGovern/Martin

Lesser extent of Saad (Injury this year) Cerra (Injury this year)
 
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