List Mgmt. 2024 List Mgmt

[Carl Ditterich]

Tea leaves are telling me that we will be in the mid season draft. I am guessing by May 29 we will have slid to 14th on the ladder and that means pick 5. Maybe Van Es to go on long term injury and give us a chance to pick up someone decent. This year turning out to be part of the rebuild which I think is a reality check.

Confident slant on where the Saints are at....is it that we do not have players with attacking flair and skill (reckon Henry, NWM, Wilson, Hill, Windhager, Collard, Phiilapou, Hastie, Garcia - have that) or the game plan?

Take your point re the older half potentially needing change - would be good to be a Geelong who can have young uns come through while getting W's (they still have a old list but are transitioning well)

 

[tomjoad]

Should we be concerned that Philippou's only extended his contract a further 2 years?

I would have liked to see him get 3 or 4 years. I wonder who wanted to keep it short. He's bound to increase in value.

Same as WangMil I believe. 2 years is pretty standard at their age.

 

[tomjoad]

No, completely incorrect.

We are actually paying part of Billings salary, so he can go and win games for Melbourne.

He's gone...and he was an overhyped s*it truck for most of his time with us. He was taking us nowhere.
Time to move on from the spudville.

 

[austinnn]

Since Lyon first left I'd say 80% of our players were varying strengths of "Alright":

Not elite, not spud. Good enough to HELP win two or three games a year, not good enough to do it alone more than twice in their career barring freak incidents, like when players like Dan Healy and Steven Sziller

Steven Sziller

Age

51

Ht

176cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.9

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

5.9

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.3

4star

No current season stats available

D

18.2

5star

K

8.2

4star

HB

10.0

5star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.6

4star

kicked bags against Eagles and Richmond respectively on the Alves era. Good enough to give you hope for the future, not good enough to successfully build a team around. Good enough to be horrified at trading them, not good enough to actually get outrageous offers from other clubs.

Eighty percent of our players since 2011.

A further 19% were less useful than that.

The final 1% have been better, and only slightly.

Is it drafting, trading, development or culture? All of the above. Is it getting better? Ask me in 5 years.

 

[akaifu]

Can anyone paste this article in here?

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=HSWEB_WRE170_a_TWT&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldsun.com.au%2Fsport%2Fafl%2Fsaints-suns-or-kangaroos-why-the-saints-have-a-different-way-to-the-top-in-flag-race%2Fnews-story%2F1b0da72fd9bb7ad070f306f5b257a7f3&memtype=registered&mode=premium&v21=GROUPA-Segment-2-NOSCORE

 

[gringo2011]

Current and future needs for our playing list list.....continue to try and get class in the middle, Ro needs back up - ie a back ruck man needed, more height in the forward line.

Love that we are getting games into the kids, do not want to be stuck in no mans land. Need a way to continue to improve (reckon we did this week and if a few things went our way we would have pinched the win).

Said when we landed Ross as our coach do not think he is the messiah, still think that. He is playing the kids but our game plan annoys the bejeesus out of me. Think he started to play more attacking but has now gone back to dour dour dour. Mind you other clubs do the same and do not get critiqued couple of games this week only had one goal each at quarter time.

I think the dour is coming from trying to stay competitive with a bulk of kids playing and first picked players missing.

From our best 22 last year we are missing King, Wood, Crouch and Sinclair is playing at about 70% of his best on last year. Probably all in our top 5 last year. King came back and looked like what we'd wanted him to be. Wood was the best wing in the league for a lot of the season. Crouch covered for Steele being down. Sincs AA quality.

Butler who is our only senior pressure forward, Webster our best accountable small back. We also have got a down year from Owens and Caminiti compared to 2023.

We lost Gresham and replaced his role with Henry who is injured and got Dow in to bring in depth to our thin midfield.

We are sort of over achieving in a way as well as being frustrating. Kids look better running around in the shadow of better players as well. Our list is still a way off a flag even at full strength.

 

[gringo2011]

All the talk of game plan etc... it's pretty simple.... if you try to pass it to your mate and you miss.... you're sh*t.

I don't care how big we are... how young we are etc. Until we can execute the basic skills of the game, we're going nowhere.

Heaps of players under pressure drop skills.The absolute stars are the ones that can play well even when the tempo goes up and the room to move is taken away. That's the biggest difference between a 20 game player picked in the 4th round and a hardened star. Butters and Rozee are at a point now where the level of experience coupled with natural talent have them in the top tier.

I reckon Hastie turned over every ball he touched but you could see the raw talent to work with and you'd hope that as nerves settle at around 50 games, that his feel for time and space starts to kick in.

 

[gringo2011]

So “he can go and win games for Melbourne” lol, are we thinking of the same spud?

I've never been a fan but he's never been a spud. Just a GOP who was unfortunate to be taken with an elite draft pick.

 

[gringo2011]

Our recruiters are not Nostradamus, those players were not injured nor injury prone players when we got them.

Those who recruited Hannebury, well that’s totally different. ( Thanks Lethers)

Yeah, just Saints luck. Trade out two injury prone players for more resilient ones and ours get long term injuries while the others play every week.

 

[MordySaint]

He's gone...and he was an overhyped s*it truck for most of his time with us. He was taking us nowhere.
Time to move on from the spudville.

Billings is far from a spud. He is a solid role player, he's injury free and doing a decent/good job on the wing for Melbourne.

We wanted him to be a game-winner... but his is not.

Did it really get that bad that we had to offload a number 3 draft pick for nothing and pay his salary?

 

[Diehard Saint]

Yeah, just Saints luck. Trade out two injury prone players for more resilient ones and ours get long term injuries while the others play every week.

You just couldn’t make it up, could you?

 

[gringo2011]

Since Lyon first left I'd say 80% of our players were varying strengths of "Alright":

Not elite, not spud. Good enough to HELP win two or three games a year, not good enough to do it alone more than twice in their career barring freak incidents, like when players like Dan Healy and Steven Sziller kicked bags against Eagles and Richmond respectively on the Alves era. Good enough to give you hope for the future, not good enough to successfully build a team around. Good enough to be horrified at trading them, not good enough to actually get outrageous offers from other clubs.

Eighty percent of our players since 2011.

A further 19% were less useful than that.

The final 1% have been better, and only slightly.

Is it drafting, trading, development or culture? All of the above. Is it getting better? Ask me in 5 years.

All of it. Planless club trying to bluff its way through to hide from past mistakes instead of manning up and going backwards to go forward with a structure. Didn't have a pro football department, didn't invest in staff to recruit, didn't have a good talent identification system that worked out who to invest time into etc.

The guys that did rise came on through natural talent. We probably could have found another 5 or 6 listed players that would have been developed into something in that time.

At the end of the day most of the players we took were just not very good though. First round picks were blown on Tom Lee, Tom Hickey+Wright+ Saunders, Carlilse (netted us Gresham), Billings, McCartin, Goddard, Dunny, Acres, Clark and Coffield, Hill and Howard, Allison.

King and Nas are the only FRDPs we took besides Ross that were a major plus to the side on around 20 years of drafting. Most were barely AFL standard or injury prone. We traded in guys like Freeman, Hickey, Longer, Savage, Hanners etc and none were overly successful. Howard and Carlisle didn't really work out long term either.

Going back to the most basic way to build a list through good recruiting and drafting is the absolute foundation of rapid improvement was the best thing we ever did.

 

[MordySaint]

Yeah, just Saints luck. Trade out two injury prone players for more resilient ones and ours get long term injuries while the others play every week.

Paddy Dow has played 30% of his games for the Carlton reserves.

I don't see an upside with a switch from Billings or Gresham to Dow.

Looks like a poor mans Luke Dunstan to me.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I think the dour is coming from trying to stay competitive with a bulk of kids playing and first picked players missing.

From our best 22 last year we are missing King, Wood, Crouch and Sinclair is playing at about 70% of his best on last year. Probably all in our top 5 last year. King came back and looked like what we'd wanted him to be. Wood was the best wing in the league for a lot of the season. Crouch covered for Steele being down. Sincs AA quality.

Butler who is our only senior pressure forward, Webster our best accountable small back. We also have got a down year from Owens and Caminiti compared to 2023.

We lost Gresham and replaced his role with Henry who is injured and got Dow in to bring in depth to our thin midfield.

We are sort of over achieving in a way as well as being frustrating. Kids look better running around in the shadow of better players as well. Our list is still a way off a flag even at full strength.

It's not pretty but I'm ok with the scrappy hard fought 10 point losses under these circumstances. It means the W/L is reflective of reality and the new generation is coming up under a never say die regime. It's far better than winning games you shouldn't, overrating yourself, losing draft position and shitting the bed in games you should win. 10 years of that has left us nowhere.
We currently sit on the ladder exactly where the age demographic says we should be, yet we feel we've underachieved and the media pile into us with no recognition of the injuries that crippled our already average midfield.
It's weird isn't it.
10 goal pumpings are handed out every week very often to the same clubs, yet we have one and it's the end of all things.
I'll take a top 5 pick this year thanks. Play all 5 draftees till the season's end and take our medicine.

 

[saint66au]

Paddy Dow has played 30% of his games for the Carlton reserves.

I don't see an upside with a switch from Billings or Gresham to Dow.

Looks like a poor mans Luke Dunstan to me.

So did Jack Steele before he came to us
That Carlton midfield hard to break into when theyre injury-free.

 

[Desperate saint]

Same as WangMil I believe. 2 years is pretty standard at their age.

no reckon the Jury is still out on Phillipou

 

[gringo2011]

Paddy Dow has played 30% of his games for the Carlton reserves.

I don't see an upside with a switch from Billings or Gresham to Dow.

Looks like a poor mans Luke Dunstan to me.

I never rated Dow but he makes sense to what we need. He's a fast inside mid who can win clearance. Lyon hates slow plodder mids who can't spread or defend. Dunny was limited but had a good year the year Ratts knifed him. It was pretty dumb list management not to hold on to him for depth. We have been smashed by injury to mids every year since and haven't replaced him.

This is at least a start. We probably need another 3 to have depth at Sandy and St Kilda. Having Jones and Dow play made us look like a decent side at Sandy. Most weeks we would have been smashed by Vellisaris and Fairlie. Both are 30+ disposal mids who would have smashed us in clearance most weeks with Hotton as the only inside mid playing.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Since Lyon first left I'd say 80% of our players were varying strengths of "Alright":

Not elite, not spud. Good enough to HELP win two or three games a year, not good enough to do it alone more than twice in their career barring freak incidents, like when players like Dan Healy and Steven Sziller kicked bags against Eagles and Richmond respectively on the Alves era. Good enough to give you hope for the future, not good enough to successfully build a team around. Good enough to be horrified at trading them, not good enough to actually get outrageous offers from other clubs.

Eighty percent of our players since 2011.

A further 19% were less useful than that.

The final 1% have been better, and only slightly.

Is it drafting, trading, development or culture? All of the above. Is it getting better? Ask me in 5 years.

You must have a different idea about what is "alright to me ".
I think if they are gifted 7 games, then never given a game again, they are not alright. They have filled up our 22.
If they are on our list 4 years and only get 15 games, they have not contributed to our averagness.


From 2012 to 2019 I make it as :
Mature players, trades, free agents , AFL experienced rookies. 19 "alright " 6 NOK.
Players taken in the draft. : 15 "alright " 13 NOK.
Rookies 6 alright. 12 NOK ( 3 of the 6 ridiculously good for a rookie ).


It looks worse from 2012 to 2015
Mature: 8 alright, 3 NOK
Draft 6 alright, 8 NOK
Rookies 3 alright , 7 NOK.

Most clubs still have players from those drafts performing valuable roles for their teams.

 

[70s sainter]

I think the game plan is based for the list, the list being a woeful midfield a strong defence and an aimless forward line

Play hard defence and try score on the rebound because it’s easier than winning it at clearance which we can’t do cleanly or pick holes in a set defence which we also can’t do

Once the midfield improves and the forwards become more dangerous i think the gameplan will get tweaked and while it will still be a win at all cost defensive game style it’ll be like early last year with more scoring

My Ross positivity though is still based around the fact that Watters, Richo and Ratts were all terrible with the lists at their disposal and Ross has to be given a few trades and draft periods to make the list his own and get rid of some deadwood

I agree and sadly when we tried to break free on sat port got away from us . All with 2 injuries ans missing set shots. I was excited at the start of the year but i think wood and henry has taken our run away. Clark , crouch and dow has taken our clearances away and webster has been replaced by collard who i dont really like.
A perfect storm of bad luck this year so pretty had to judge ross lyons game plan based on all of the above.
Maybe conditioning is an area that needs massive improvement and should be investigated

 

[Ads734]

Funny Mattaes is not even:

• 2 weeks older then Arie Schoenmakers.
• 3 Months older then Lance Collard
• 4 months older then Hugo

Patience please.

 

[gringo2011]

It's not pretty but I'm ok with the scrappy hard fought 10 point losses under these circumstances. It means the W/L is reflective of reality and the new generation is coming up under a never say die regime. It's far better than winning games you shouldn't, overrating yourself, losing draft position and shitting the bed in games you should win. 10 years of that has left us nowhere.
We currently sit on the ladder exactly where the age demographic says we should be, yet we feel we've underachieved and the media pile into us with no recognition of the injuries that crippled our already average midfield.
It's weird isn't it.
10 goal pumpings are handed out every week very often to the same clubs, yet we have one and it's the end of all things.
I'll take a top 5 pick this year thanks. Play all 5 draftees till the season's end and take our medicine.

I think playing finals was an expectation setter that wasn't a true refection. A few other sides had bad years. Geelong and Freo stunk it up and Essendon had injury and form issues. GC and Dogs were a real mixed bag and GWS started the year like they were a bottom 4 side.

It was a decent fixture hitting a few sides underdone too. We look like a side that should sit 5th to 16th depending on form, fixture and injury. We are as vulnerable as any side in footy to injury. Our depth is mostly very inexperienced kids or below average players.

To me we aren't playing finals so might as well start playing kids in positions that they'll grow into and get surges booked for any of our injured guys. Hit 2025 ready to roll. Get ourselves and absolute blue chip mid in the draft.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I think playing finals was an expectation setter that wasn't a true refection. A few other sides had bad years. Geelong and Freo stunk it up and Essendon had injury and form issues. GC and Dogs were a real mixed bag and GWS started the year like they were a bottom 4 side.

It was a decent fixture hitting a few sides underdone too. We look like a side that should sit 5th to 16th depending on form, fixture and injury. We are as vulnerable as any side in footy to injury. Our depth is mostly very inexperienced kids or below average players.

To me we aren't playing finals so might as well start playing kids in positions that they'll grow into and get surges booked for any of our injured guys. Hit 2025 ready to roll. Get ourselves and absolute blue chip mid in the draft.

I couldn't agree more. Once a few decent senior players are back I'd much rather see a kid than a depth senior. There's just no sense in that at all now.

 

[saintmike65]

Billings is far from a spud. He is a solid role player, he's injury free and doing a decent/good job on the wing for Melbourne.

We wanted him to be a game-winner... but his is not.

Did it really get that bad that we had to offload a number 3 draft pick for nothing and pay his salary?

The club put itself in a hiding to nothing situation with JB..overpaid him on 700K, reducing his salary to 500K but gave him a 4 year contract as a sweetener, Seriously doubt SOS would’ve done that!!

 

[sammm]

All of it. Planless club trying to bluff its way through to hide from past mistakes instead of manning up and going backwards to go forward with a structure. Didn't have a pro football department, didn't invest in staff to recruit, didn't have a good talent identification system that worked out who to invest time into etc.

The guys that did rise came on through natural talent. We probably could have found another 5 or 6 listed players that would have been developed into something in that time.

At the end of the day most of the players we took were just not very good though. First round picks were blown on Tom Lee, Tom Hickey+Wright+ Saunders, Carlilse (netted us Gresham), Billings, McCartin, Goddard, Dunny, Acres, Clark and Coffield, Hill and Howard, Allison.

King and Nas are the only FRDPs we took besides Ross that were a major plus to the side on around 20 years of drafting. Most were barely AFL standard or injury prone. We traded in guys like Freeman, Hickey, Longer, Savage, Hanners etc and none were overly successful. Howard and Carlisle didn't really work out long term either.

Going back to the most basic way to build a list through good recruiting and drafting is the absolute foundation of rapid improvement was the best thing we ever did.

most fans these days don't wantto wait htat long, be down for several years first.

 

[Ads734]

The club put itself in a hiding to nothing situation with JB..overpaid him on 700K, reducing his salary to 500K but gave him a 4 year contract as a sweetener, Seriously doubt SOS would’ve done that!!

Did you see some of the trades Sos made for the Giants players whilst at the Blues.