List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.2

[Joffaboy]

I hope you are right Joff, if Hunter could become our Joel Selwood it would be fantastic. But the reality is with his injury history and lack of development unfortunately the odds are against him. I can understand your love and defending him, so hopefully at some stage he rewards your loyalty and faith.

That is the biggest issue, 19 games is the most he has ever played in a season. Ok first couple in and out as a kid but from 2020 onwards he has had wretched injury runs, a couple impact injuries that can't be helped.
I disagree he has developed poorly, I watch his in and under work closely and I rate him equally with Crouch but with a better boot and dual sided.
I am not an advocate for the ToG he gets belted with, we are a fit team and won more 4th qtrs than any other team except Sydney....
....however Lyon does not keep injury prone players about for long. Example Jones finally got a block of games and looked good, gets a 1 year contract. His last month saved his career.
If Clark wants to remain in the mids, don't forget we may have McRae or some other inside bull joining plus in all probability two top ten mids, plus Garcia, Pou and Wilson pushing up, he need to be as fit as possible and yes get the ToG up.
He has been able to cruise a bit, but now I think competition in the mids will be much higher it has been since our great teams of the 2000's.
If he can maintain fitness continue to buy in to Lyon and stay in form, he has a chance to cement a permanent spot.
If not, he is out, I am not wedded to any player.

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[gringo2011]

It's called defence, and we did it very well. When we had the ball we moved it successfully with control and uncontested marks. This makes the last kick inside 50 tougher which we saw.

As Punter said, we were avoiding stoppages, which are our weakness. "Locking the ball up to avoid damage" makes good defence sound like a negative. Our main issue was having to avoid stoppage, and missing out on the great attacking opportunities that come from stoppage wins. And butchering too many of the opportunities that we did get with poor decisions and skills in the forward half.

When we had no midfield we went extremely negating. We played some of the ugliest most painful to watch footy ever. Lyon was criticised for his abysmal style for it. It wasn't just defence. It was a full field blanketing to stop us from being beaten. Not going out to win.

 

[Saintbloke]

The board had the right idea, just botched the execution.

If you can get into the top 6-8 teams year on year on year then your odds of grabbing better trades and FA options increases.

We are always going to struggle against the Pies/Blues/Tigers/Dons when it comes to attracting talent so we need to be like Geelong and Hawthorn - Be the professionally run team, always in finals contention, with a top shelf development program and training standards.

Ross Lyon's been brought in specifically to build this culture with the new generation.

I think Lyon was brought in on an impetuous move by entrepreneur Bassat in typical impatient Saints management style- instant fix.. sack the coach, bring in a hallowed coach from years gone by, bring in older trade-out players from other teams to plug gaps. When we start losing games, the narrative changes to ..'oh it's a discovery year"..it's a development year" etc etc...like we have never had this before with just about every coach.
Contrast to the Hawks- Mitchell comes in as coach, has Clarkson in the box as mentor, start to formulate a style of play, and stick hard and fast to it, while fixing list issues with a minimum of fuss, and due to faith in their method, their personnel etc. they quickly caught us and passed us. The formula is pretty simple, but the Saints never get it right.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think Lyon was brought in on an impetuous move by entrepreneur Bassat in typical impatient Saints management style- instant fix.. sack the coach, bring in a hallowed coach from years gone by, bring in older trade-out players from other teams to plug gaps. When we start losing games, the narrative changes to ..'oh it's a discovery year"..it's a development year" etc etc...like we have never had this before with just about every coach.
Contrast to the Hawks- Mitchell comes in as coach, has Clarkson in the box as mentor, start to formulate a style of play, and stick hard and fast to it, while fixing list issues with a minimum of fuss, and due to faith in their method, their personnel etc. they quickly caught us and passed us. The formula is pretty simple, but the Saints never get it right.

Keep Richo?
Keep Ratton?

 

[phantom13]

Clearly you really haven't a clue what has transpired. May be that, may be reasons our end like Port demanding two frdps this year for him.
He is contracted for 3 years, if he wants out Port have the upper hand, he can't demand to go where he wants.

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Bit OTT.

All the talk was he wanted Carlton, id think we were 3rd or 4th of the clubs that were sniffing around.

Him saying we were his preferred destination is both the most likely and least offensive option.

 

[ThomasR]

I reckon LDU is ideal and would definitely chase him. Maybe 8 and a future first with a future second back. Brayshaw is a very good but not elite level player. Would leave him.

Reckon there's zero chance Freo would let Brayshaw walk pre-emptively anyway given they are going to give up picks 9+10 to chase a flag. We'll definitely be asking the question next year. If he leaves they'll definitely be under-compensated but I can't see why they would force the issue. Not considering a guy who won the AFLPA MVP aged 22 to be elite is setting a pretty high bar.

North may be more amenable for LDU but it's likely their compensation will be a top 5 pick at worst, and they'll have the cap to match, so it's going to take a very very good offer to prise him out this year. In terms of their demographic maybe it makes some sense for them to expedite bringing in more young players if they are resigned to losing him. Our proximity to the peninsula and his friendship with Clark is hopefully a strong influence. I love the idea of him bursting out of stoppage but have to temper those visions by remembering he kicks the thing like Seb Ross.

So many good free agents around next year, as I guess there are at this time every year. If we strike out on all of them maybe we can trade Gubby for a late fourth.

 

[Yawkey way]

So there seemed to be a decent amount of support on here for houston if he cost pick 8.

Question for the folks who were ok with houston for 8:

Do you think it would be equally acceptable if we could get a gun like LDU or brayshaw if they cost say:
Pick 8 + our future first, with a 2024 2nd (or 3rd) rounder coming back to us?

Brayshaw and LDU both:
*years younger than houston
* gun elite players who play positions we are desperate for.

Surely they are worth that extra cost over houston- especially if we back ourselves in to play finals next year and like our chances of a good player in rnd 2 + 3 in supposedly a deep draft this year?

Who has this two for one worked for ? Why ?.

There’s your answer.

 

[XhazzafootyX]

To be fair Houston also said on radio he was staying which doesn’t look to be true.

 

[Joffaboy]

Bit OTT.

All the talk was he wanted Carlton, id think we were 3rd or 4th of the clubs that were sniffing around.

Him saying we were his preferred destination is both the most likely and least offensive option.

Yeah it was, could have been a bit less vociferous in my objections.
I don't think anything is 'clearly' anything though.
Anyway Houston not coming for whatever reason, we move on.

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[SG34]

To a point- yes, I think you can get away with an average midfield.

If you sweat on punishing teams on turnovers, then yeah... you can win lots of games by basically conceding most centre square stoppages and giving them first use.

BUT- I think where this strategy comes unstuck when it REALLY matters- CLOSE finish games.

Games that are on the line at the death are (in my opinion) often won and lost out of the centre square clearance battle (especially with the 6/6/6 rule).

So I think you can build a team that wins a lot of games using just a bland, average midfield (if you are good at punishing turnovers and commit few yourself).

BUT- you're team is gonna be at high risk (i think) of losing the majority of any CLOSE games they happen to play in.

In an even comp- there are bound to be lots of close games (and especially in low scoring finals).
So I think yes- you can build very good, competitive team with only an average midfield.

But that competitive team is always going to be more likely than not to lose the most important/season defining games.

So overall- THAT is why it ultimately fails as a flag winning strategy in my opinion.

You don't need star mids... right up until the crucial points when you DO need them.

So you could argue that low scoring teams, with a legit defence and sketchy offense, will end up in ‘tight’ games and hence need those magical mids? But that is missing the idea, that in such a scenario, a 7 point lead, where the ‘atmosphere is dense’ is really like the equivalent of a 17 point lead in a ‘looser’ or more ‘slippery’ game..and so, then we must look at fitness and discipline and here is where we have improved. We improved in Ratts’s last year significantly and then again under Ross in year one. This year, less noticeable but we still ran out games well. So everyone bagging us for low scoring ought to notice that too. (Damn it, if only we pinched that GWS game !) (don’t mention round one Geelong or three Essendon)

 

[Captain Paddy]

People still holding out hope and defending Clark are amazing to me

 

[ThomasR]

Marchbank delisted by Carlton. SOS must be rubbing his hands together with glee

 

[akaifu]

People still holding out hope and defending Clark are amazing to me

As long as the club haven't given up on him, we as supporters can't do so either. We all know he has attributes that have the potential to make him become a very good midfielder, its just the other stuff around it like the physical piece that he needs to build up. He's been hampered by injury and time is almost up, but until it officially is, he remains a Saint and we have to embrace him

 

[botts]

Marchbank delisted by Carlton. SOS must be rubbing his hands together with glee

Had a crack at him last year but he knocked us back. If we can get his body right it would be worth a crack

 

[Sully111]

People still holding out hope and defending Clark are amazing to me

Has played some really good footy for us this year.

 

[ARCHIE66]

Let’s just get macrae, hopefully snag peatling and keep 7 and 8. Don’t need to over complicate this trade period at all.

 

[CaptainRisky]

As long as the club haven't given up on him, we as supporters can't do so either. We all know he has attributes that have the potential to make him become a very good midfielder, its just the other stuff around it like the physical piece that he needs to build up. He's been hampered by injury and time is almost up, but until it officially is, he remains a Saint and we have to embrace him

A question for you , Do you really think Hunter is going to change and decide to get fit and strengthen up over summer , I'm willing to bet we will see the exact same Hunter next year

 

[SaintsSeptember]

People still holding out hope and defending Clark are amazing to me

 

[The Punter]

I don't see a single person on here acting like Clark is Dustin Martin. He's firmly in the "I have to perform each week to play" group, along with Byrnes and a few others. But he was playing well and contributing to on-field success (wins) in the second half of the season. We don't play one short when he's on the ground (or when he's off it for that matter - worth mentioning considering the TOG stick he gets whacked with).

Macrae comes in fit for Round 1, one of Clark, Jones or Dow won't be playing (assuming everyone else is still fit).

 

[Captain Paddy]

Marchbank is a LOCK to come isn't he

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Had a crack at him last year but he knocked us back. If we can get his body right it would be worth a crack

I'm really not confident that StKilda can suddenly repair players that other clubs have given up on.
We've been trying since Jesse Smith.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I think Lyon was brought in on an impetuous move by entrepreneur Bassat in typical impatient Saints management style- instant fix.. sack the coach, bring in a hallowed coach from years gone by, bring in older trade-out players from other teams to plug gaps. When we start losing games, the narrative changes to ..'oh it's a discovery year"..it's a development year" etc etc...like we have never had this before with just about every coach.
Contrast to the Hawks- Mitchell comes in as coach, has Clarkson in the box as mentor, start to formulate a style of play, and stick hard and fast to it, while fixing list issues with a minimum of fuss, and due to faith in their method, their personnel etc. they quickly caught us and passed us. The formula is pretty simple, but the Saints never get it right.

Sp let me get this right... We should avoid;

Changing coaches (Clarkson booted early with $450K payout.

Bringing in players from other clubs to plug holes (Frost, Meek, Chol, Scrimshaw, Impey, D'Ambrosio).

But persevere with a game plan that took a few seasons to imbed (which at times looked horrendous)

Hmmmm.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ross was pretty clear from when he took over that 2023 was a Year of Exploration... despite a great start that saw us in the 8 for the vast majority of the season. Nothing changed in that message for the entire season.

2024 & injuries cooked our start to this year... but I never once heard anything about a discovery or development year. No change of narrative at all.

Players we have recruited from other clubs since October 2022; Cordy, Stocker, Dow, Henry, Bonner.

Kids we have recruited since October 2022; Phillipou, Caminiti, Keeler, Wilson, Garcia, Collard, Hastie, Schoenmaker, Van Es, Hotton.

Hmmmmm.

 

[Captain Paddy]

A question for you , Do you really think Hunter is going to change and decide to get fit and strengthen up over summer , I'm willing to bet we will see the exact same Hunter next year

Exactly.

No one is doubting the talent.

But you can't keep blaming injuries for what he's become. It's on him.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I'm really not confident that StKilda can suddenly repair players that other clubs have given up on.
We've been trying since Jesse Smith.

Like Stocker & Mason Wood?

 

[akaifu]

A question for you , Do you really think Hunter is going to change and decide to get fit and strengthen up over summer , I'm willing to bet we will see the exact same Hunter next year

If he can stay fully fit over a full pre-season, I'd back him to do it. His career is on the line in the first half of 2025. If he screws up then Garcia, Windy, pick 7, pick 8 (maybe) will all overtake him, not to mention a Macrae or Peatling potentially