List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.2

[phantom13]

Got 2 years because his manager only wanted enough to get him to free agency.

As for the 25%, I could name 10 or 12 players in 2022 who deserved (or got) more money than Battle.

In the end its worked in our favour, we get Pick 8 in a draft with plenty of mids for a 3rd tall who is easily replaced.

Battles not easily replaced. Kidding yourself if you think otherwise

 

[The_Steadier]

Got 2 years because his manager only wanted enough to get him to free agency.

As for the 25%, I could name 10 or 12 players in 2022 who deserved (or got) more money than Battle.

In the end its worked in our favour, we get Pick 8 in a draft with plenty of mids for a 3rd tall who is easily replaced.

It doesn't matter if he wasn't worthy of being in our top 25% 2 years ago- gags was asleep at the wheel not shuffling money around with front and backloading of battle and others to make it look like he was in our top 25% paid in 2023.

I can't think of a single other club who has EVER let a clearly best 22 player (as battle was in 2022) become an unrestricted free agent at age 25.
Anyone even half decent is ALWAYS a restricted FA (because their list managers aren't as daft as our old one and shuffle money around)

Here's the proof he was clearly best 22 when he re-signed in 2022 btw:

Battle won: Defender re-signs, question mark on veterans

Josh Battle extends his stay at Moorabbin for another two years, club turns to unsigned stars

www.afl.com.au

No other clubs have shot themselves in the foot this way before.

We have no-one but gags and ourselves to thank for the list mgt disaster that it is if we dont get band 1.

 

[Saint_Dos]

Soldo + Houston for Pick 8?

Arent Port talking 2 first rounders for Houston?
2 firsts if way overs but doubt they are going to entertain that trade

 

[akaifu]

Battles not easily replaced. Kidding yourself if you think otherwise

In terms of players worth 900k per year, he's absolutely easily replaced

 

[The_Steadier]

who was playing poorly on the wing in 2022 and you reckon he should have been in the top 9 paid players at the club in 2022? Righto.

Wanna have another go at that?

Battle won: Defender re-signs, question mark on veterans

Josh Battle extends his stay at Moorabbin for another two years, club turns to unsigned stars

www.afl.com.au

From August 2022:

Battle has become a permanent fixture in Brett Ratten’s backline in 2022, playing all 19 games since moving down there alongside Dougal Howard and Cal Wilkie.

After being drafted from the Dandenong Stingrays as a key forward, Battle has played all over the ground until producing a career-best season as a defender.

 

[snails13]

Hope Pencil Case was watching Mid week tackle.
Macrae very likely at Pick 43,says Ralphy

 

[BrutThough]

It doesn't matter if he wasn't worthy of being in our top 25% 2 years ago- gags was asleep at the wheel not shuffling money around with front and backloading of battle and others to make it look like he was in our top 25% paid in 2023.

I can't think of a single other club who has EVER let a clearly best 22 player (as battle was in 2022) become an unrestricted free agent at age 25.
Anyone even half decent is ALWAYS a restricted FA (because their list managers aren't as daft as our old one and shuffle money around)

Here's the proof he was clearly best 22 when he re-signed in 2022 btw:

Battle won: Defender re-signs, question mark on veterans

Josh Battle extends his stay at Moorabbin for another two years, club turns to unsigned stars

www.afl.com.au

No other clubs have shot themselves in the foot this way before.

We have no-one but gags and ourselves to thank for the list mgt disaster that it is if we dont get band 1.

If the reported figure of 400k per season is correct, it's very unlikely there is a way to structure that deal that would be acceptable to the person receiving and have them in our top 25% paid. Especially not once all of Sinclair, Wilkie and Higgins received sizeable pay rises under the new list management team.

I get there has to be a villain so why not blame people no longer at the club but in this case, there is a chance the biggest crime was convincing a best 22 player to take a very reasonably priced deal.

 

[Saints43]

It doesn't matter if he wasn't worthy of being in our top 25% 2 years ago- gags was asleep at the wheel not shuffling money around with front and backloading of battle and others to make it look like he was in our top 25% paid in 2023.

I can't think of a single other club who has EVER let a clearly best 22 player (as battle was in 2022) become an unrestricted free agent at age 25.
Anyone even half decent is ALWAYS a restricted FA (because their list managers aren't as daft as our old one and shuffle money around)

Here's the proof he was clearly best 22 when he re-signed in 2022 btw:

Battle won: Defender re-signs, question mark on veterans

Josh Battle extends his stay at Moorabbin for another two years, club turns to unsigned stars

www.afl.com.au

No other clubs have shot themselves in the foot this way before.

We have no-one but gags and ourselves to thank for the list mgt disaster that it is if we dont get band 1.

Can you explain exactly how the "shuffling" of money in 2022 would have put Battle in the best 9 paid players at St Kilda?

 

[hayes]

I don’t mind the second ruck as a forward I just don’t want to over-invest in talls. If it’s Max and Row as the key forwards with one of Caminiti or Sharman I can live with that (though ideally there’s only two) but if we’re playing three talls and two rucks that’s a great way to go nowhere.

 

[Saints43]

Wanna have another go at that?

Battle won: Defender re-signs, question mark on veterans

Josh Battle extends his stay at Moorabbin for another two years, club turns to unsigned stars

www.afl.com.au

From August 2022:

Battle has become a permanent fixture in Brett Ratten’s backline in 2022, playing all 19 games since moving down there alongside Dougal Howard and Cal Wilkie.

After being drafted from the Dandenong Stingrays as a key forward, Battle has played all over the ground until producing a career-best season as a defender.

You're right 2021 was the wing year.
He'd spent one season in the backline by the end of 2022. I don't know how he'd get paid as a top ten player signing a contract in 2022.
Battle's career best season wasn't necessarily a high bar at the time. Essentially he was 24 years old before he was a decent seniors player.

 

[Aussieviking1]

And what others are saying in return is that Marshall is way better in the ruck than he is forward so it seems illogical to want to move him to a position we have seen he doesnt play as well for Ivan Soldo of all people.

Agree and your point is backed by the season he has had and the impact within the games he played.
Having said that, would he have more impact if not full time rucking?
Was he less affective when Paddy was in the side?
Were we a better team with both ruckmen in the side?
I feel that the coaches are leaning to a slightly different or additional role within the side by bringing in another ruckman because Marshall IS so good around the ground both dropping back and/or going forward. He is a big sized utility of sorts.
Food for thought I would throw out there.

 

[The_Steadier]

If the reported figure of 400k per season is correct, it's very unlikely there is a way to structure that deal that would be acceptable to the person receiving and have them in our top 25% paid. Especially not once all of Sinclair, Wilkie and Higgins received sizeable pay rises under the new list management team.

I get there has to be a villain so why not blame people no longer at the club but in this case, there is a chance the biggest crime was convincing a best 22 player to take a very reasonably priced deal.

You don't find it incredible that no other team has found themselves in this situation before?

A guy (who they drafted), has cemented his spot in the best 22 at 23 years of age (ie not some fringe guy)- and then hits free agency at age 25 as an unrestricted free agent.

Unless I'm mistaken (?)- this has never before happened in the 12 years of free agency.

Sure maybe it's just 'the stkilda curse' lol :/

All I'm suggesting is that (shock horror)- there is a very real alternate reason... our guy was a dumb dumb and every other club for 12 years has seen this kinda crap coming, and accounted for it.

 

[stavro#4]

No mention of us. Carlton offering a F1 for GCs p12.

 

[The_Steadier]

Can you explain exactly how the "shuffling" of money in 2022 would have put Battle in the best 9 paid players at St Kilda?

Sure.
Gags signed his contract at the end of 2022 (aug 22) for the 2023 and 2024 seasons.

Gags left the club in december 2022.
Any list manager worth their salt would have made it look like battle was in our top 25% in 2023- so he hit free agency in 2024 as a restricted free agent.

This post fills the rest of it in:

Gags left in dec 22- before he did that, he re-signed battle for 2 years AND set the contract payments structure for the whole team in 2023.

Why does this matter?
Because in January 2024, battle was given unrestricted free agent status based on not being in our top 25% paid players in 2023.

How did that happen?
Our mate gags set it up that way before he left in dec 2022.

 

[BrutThough]

You don't find it incredible that no other team has found themselves in this situation before?

A guy (who they drafted), has cemented his spot in the best 22 at 23 years of age (ie not some fringe guy)- and then hits free agency at age 25 as an unrestricted free agent.

Unless I'm mistaken (?)- this has never before happened in the 12 years of free agency.

Sure maybe it's just 'the stkilda curse' lol :/

All I'm suggesting is that (shock horror)- there is a very real alternate reason... our guy was a dumb dumb and every other club for 12 years has seen this kinda crap coming, and accounted for it.

Not really. Looking at our list, I'm not shocked that Battle of 2 years ago wasn't given a contract to put him in our 9 highest paid players.

And if the reported 400k is correct, I'm also not shocked that couldn't be structured to be back-ended enough for him to earn 3/4 of that this year to put him into that bracket.

 

[True Believer]

I don’t mind the second ruck as a forward I just don’t want to over-invest in talls. If it’s Max and Row as the key forwards with one of Caminiti or Sharman I can live with that (though ideally there’s only two) but if we’re playing three talls and two rucks that’s a great way to go nowhere.

It's entirely possible in that situation that they try and use Caminiti down back, and then allow Wilkie to play the third tall down back. Sharman is a mid-size forward, not a tall, so he doesn't pose a problem.

 

[CursingFijian]

Sort of like criticising Jack Higgins for the team not kicking enough goals.

I'm steadfast: the team has issues to address, and Marshall isn't one of them.

Ross has been vocal about our vulnerability in the midfield and Marshall plays a role in that.

I think if we have targeted him, then the Boss has a plan. I think getting someone of Soldo's ilk is a good move. His job will be to complement our incumbent ruck though, not replace him. And if he's incapable of doing that I suspect he will become quality depth.

 

[StCicatriz]

Wanna have another go at that?

Battle won: Defender re-signs, question mark on veterans

Josh Battle extends his stay at Moorabbin for another two years, club turns to unsigned stars

www.afl.com.au

From August 2022:

Battle has become a permanent fixture in Brett Ratten’s backline in 2022, playing all 19 games since moving down there alongside Dougal Howard and Cal Wilkie.

After being drafted from the Dandenong Stingrays as a key forward, Battle has played all over the ground until producing a career-best season as a defender.

exactly. its a massive list management **** up.

if we want to win a flag we can't keep having these scenarios. this constant repetition of big list management mistakes and poor drafting.

Gags also oversaw the whole Hill trade. i love Hill but it's cost us Serong. Serong is an inside mid who's now a 2x All Australian. just finished top 5 in the brownlow. 2x B&F. someone who's part of the engine room. Hill will never be that and was never going to be. People will point to Hill keeping Nas, but i think Wood has more to do with that and as much as I love NAS he's still not an inside mid or part of the engine.

Gags is right up there with Trout and Ameet in terms of the damage he has done to the club.

correct those two mistakes and we have the inside mid we are crying out for. plus we retain Battle. probably Acres too. i'd much rather that outcome than paying the farm for Hill.

 

[BrutThough]

Agree and your point is backed by the season he has had and the impact within the games he played.
Having said that, would he have more impact if not full time rucking?
Was he less affective when Paddy was in the side?
Were we a better team with both ruckmen in the side?
I feel that the coaches are leaning to a slightly different or additional role within the side by bringing in another ruckman because Marshall IS so good around the ground both dropping back and/or going forward. He is a big sized utility of sorts.
Food for thought I would throw out there.

While we were stronger when Ryder/Marshall played together, a large part of that was because of how incredible Ryder was. A ruckman with his pure ruck craft who also has expereince playing as a genuine forward is like a unicorn. He was the perfect partner to complement both Marshall's strengths and weaknesses. Marshall is also a better player now than he was when Ryder was around - whether that is because he is playing as the main guy or just overall experience would be a guess but I lean towards the main guy reasoning.

 

[Premium]

Got 2 years because his manager only wanted enough to get him to free agency.

As for the 25%, I could name 10 or 12 players in 2022 who deserved (or got) more money than Battle.

In the end its worked in our favour, we get Pick 8 in a draft with plenty of mids for a 3rd tall who is easily replaced.

Agree with this , however we are losing a sound quality young player who had his best football ahead of him.
Only hope we get a good player from his compensation.

We currently have a nucleus of quality youth who will take to were we want to get.
Nas , Phillipou , Windhager , Owens , Wilson , Henry all look like standouts and with King yet to produce constantly if he hits his straps we could well see us contending.
We have kids that are only going to get better in Caminiti , Hastie , Schoemaker , McLennan, Garcia , Keller.
When you add Marshall , Sinclair , Steele , MaCrae , Wilkie , Hill , Wood , Howard , Higgins , Sharman , Clark , Butler we are going to be a threat how much is going to depend on how well our kids come on.

Webster - Howard - Wilkie
Sinclair - Caminiti - Nas
Wood - Steele - Wilson
Henry - King - Phillipou
Higgins - Sharman - Owens

Marshall / MaCrae / Windhager

Clark - Hill

I really feel this will be the main 20 players / I don't know what positions they will play- I have Hammer playing at CHB but it could be anyone.

The thing is we have playing depth now with guys like Jones , Dow , Cordy , Butler , Stocker , Garcia , Hastie , Schoemaker , McLennan and Keller who I think will be playing next year.

We are not far from being off fighting for a flag looking at the teams we beat this year without really playing our best - we lost to Port by 10 points got flogged in the other game , but beat the Swans , Cats and Blues so we are close.

We get improvement from the team anything can happen

 

[AaronSCHQ]

All of the chatter about Soldo & Marshall. It’s very obvious that we need another back up ruckman on the list. With Campbell departing.

Worst case, we get Soldo in as decent cover for RoMa. Best case scenario, Soldo & Marshall form a solid combo.

I don’t think a trade for Soldo will cost us that much that it’s an issue if he’s playing at Sandy alongside Heath.

As good as Marshall is and polled in the Brownlow, he could probably do similar playing on ball - he’s getting his votes for clearances, contested ball and marks.

 

[The_Steadier]

And if the reported 400k is correct, I'm also not shocked that couldn't be structured to be back-ended enough for him to earn 3/4 of that this year to put him into that bracket.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm not talking to gags here?

I'm no rocket surgeon- but even I know that if I've got a guy on 400k a year for 2023 and 2024... and i need it to look like he's in the top 25% of players in 2023...

Sure I try and cram say 5-600k into 2023 and the rest in 2024.

But if that still doesn't get him into the top 25% of earners in 2023...

I ring up the lowest paid guy who IS in the top 25% in 2023- and ask him to do me (and the club he wants to be successful) a favour- and agree to get paid a bit less in 2023- and we'll pay him back the missing $ in 2024.
Just like magic, suddenly battle looks like he is in the top 25% in 2023 (on his 800k 2year deal)

This kind of basic list management is why no other clubs in 12 years have had a clear best 22 25year old qualify as an unrestricted free agent.

 

[hangdog]

Row Row Roh your boat, off to go Pearling, instead we catch a Macray

Membery membery membery membery,

F**k free agency

 

[St Neil]

According to the brain trust of Fox Footy’s “The Midweek Tackle”, they think Saints trading a future 2nd to PA for Ivan Soldo

13

Ivan Soldo

Age

28

Ht

204cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.9

2star

HB

4.1

3star

CL

2.4

4star

HO

24.2

5star

D

7.3

2star

K

3.1

1star

HB

4.1

3star

CL

2.4

4star

HO

23.0

5star

D

6.4

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

3.4

3star

CL

1.6

4star

HO

21.4

5star

“seems about right”.

Apparently, because Soldo is contracted for 2 more years, the Power “holds the whip hand”.

Vacuous analysis. Just because PA overpaid for Soldo they seem to think we should do the same.

Soldo wants out, is on a largish contract, is 29, and is now Port’s third choice ruck. Why in god’s name wouldn’t PA jump at the chance to cut their losses and get his salary off their books?

Especially with Lukosius offered a hefty 6 year contract.

But the kicker in their analysis was the “expert” (not Jon Ralph but the other bloke) who said that if Saints don’t pay Port’s price then PA will just keep him.

Why would PA do that? Soldo is a failed trade and he wants out. Doesn’t want to be there anymore and they don’t need him now.

Sweet has usurped him and Port have another preferred back-up ruck.

Soldo should be a salary dump where Port gets a pick to offset some of their trading losses. But it should be no better than a future third. Otherwise we should just play hard ball and move on.

Soldo is okay but not great. He is what he is. He’s never going to be better than a useful contributor.

 

[Saints43]

I'm starting to wonder if I'm not talking to gags here?

I'm no rocket surgeon- but even I know that if I've got a guy on 400k a year for 2023 and 2024... and i need it to look like he's in the top 25% of players in 2023...

Sure I try and cram say 5-600k into 2023 and the rest in 2024.

But if that still doesn't get him into the top 25% of earners in 2023...

I ring up the lowest paid guy who IS in the top 25% in 2023- and ask him to do me (and the club he wants to be successful) a favour- and agree to get paid a bit less in 2023- and we'll pay him back the missing $ in 2024.
Just like magic, suddenly battle looks like he is in the top 25% in 2023 (on his 800k 2year deal)

This kind of basic list management is why no other clubs in 12 years have had a clear best 22 25year old qualify as an unrestricted free agent.

Contracts are lodged with the AFL as part of the governance of the salary cap.
I'm not sure the shuffling you're suggesting, if I understand it, is possible.