USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

[spinynorman]

We know where Trump does too. Only difference is he's explicitly stated his support for the genocide while Harris weasels around language like that.

He's no better on Iran either, recently threatening to "blow them to smithereens".

Both seem to have the same net result though? I am willing to accept as a hypothetical that things there could be worse under Trump, but I struggle to see how. Israel has now invaded a sovereign nation and twice turned their guns on UN peacekeepers. Biden (and now Harris) have both publicly called for restraint, but there are indications that privately they're more deferential and, irrespective, are unwilling to stop arming Israel to carry on (and, in fact, have bombed Yemen to assist Israel in carrying this out).

Trump is publicly encouraging Israel, it's true, but it's the same net result - a belligerent, allegedly genocidal state dangerously spreading a war. To not reward anyone who supports this, openly or not, mightn't be the choice everyone concerned makes, but it's not an irrational one.

 

[OneGreatClub]

I read something the other day which indicated that Muslim voters in Michigan are not only breaking from the Dems, but also going across to Don.

I can't embrace that logic. It escapes me entirely.

The linked article talks about the first part of the equation, but I can't recall where I saw a suggestion of the second.

Democrats fear Michigan Muslim voters breaking from Harris in final days

Muslim and Arab-American voters in Michigan, who backed Joe Biden in 2020, could be decisive to the presidential race.

www.newsweek.com

Good luck to them then. Their freedom in the US will be short lived.

 

[spinynorman]

Not voting is giving the vote to Donald

You've said this a few times. Given that's literally not the case, would you care to expand?

 

[JB1975]

It’s not a weapon though, it’s suicide as if Trump wins then future ‘elections’ will be like Hungary’s or Russia’s and soon enough he will incarcerate or deport anyone supporting Palestine

I'm reminded of that time when a man named Gough called me ridiculously hyperbolic. I get nostalgic at the most random moments.

I think that people who share my position are more measured than you give them credit for.

 

[OneGreatClub]

How anyone anti genocide can stand by and let THIS party have a chance of winning is beyond me,

 

[JB1975]

Biden (and now Harris) have both publicly called for restraint, but there are indications that privately they're more deferential and, irrespective, are unwilling to stop arming Israel to carry on

The calls for 'restraint' are a political pantomime, as is the purported support for a two-state solution.

 

[JB1975]

How anyone anti genocide can stand by and let THIS party have a chance of winning is beyond me,

It might have something to do with the fact that the other guys are enabling genocide as we speak.

Possibly.

 

[CM86]

Trump wants an autocracy.
He and the people behind him want to remove the ability for free and fair elections.

A person's vote is one of the most important and powerful things they can have in a democracy.
Trump wants to remove that power from anyone who won't vote for him.



There is no justifiable or honest reason for anyone to refuse to use their vote to protect the democratic system that gives them the vote in the first place.
It is nonsensical.

 

[JB1975]

Trump wants an autocracy.
He and the people behind him want to remove the ability for free and fair elections.

A person's vote is one of the most important and powerful things they can have in a democracy.
Trump wants to remove that power from anyone who won't vote for him.



There is no justifiable or honest reason for anyone to refuse to use their vote to protect the democratic system that gives them the vote in the first place.
It is nonsensical.

We can all agree that Trump has the democratic impulse of Genghis Khan.

But can you explain how he will destroy the electoral system in his next term?

 

[CM86]

We can all agree that Trump has the democratic impulse of Genghis Khan.

But can you explain how he will destroy the electoral system in his next term?

By removing the few people who stopped him from doing it at the end of his last term.

Reimplement Schedule F.
Which would allow him to remove the safeguards of independence and accountability that comes from civil servants.

Schedule F appointment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can you clarify if you agree that Trump attempted to overturn the last US election results?
And if you believe the 6th of Jan 2020 was an attempted insurrection or not?

 

[Baldur]

You've said this a few times. Given that's literally not the case, would you care to expand?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2129603

Basically history has shown that high voter turnout tends to result in democrat victory and low voter turnout in republican victory. The simple math says that if you not voting for one side, your failure to vote has aided the other side in reaching victory as their target is lower.

 

[E Shed]

We can all agree that Trump has the democratic impulse of Genghis Khan.

But can you explain how he will destroy the electoral system in his next term?

The same way any dictator does.
Honestly the US has been the worlds democracy police since WW2 and have the biggest military (maybe China).
Who's going to stop them? Maybe China but its game over for most of the world if that happens anyway.

 

[JB1975]

By removing the few people who stopped him from doing it at the end of his last term.

Reimplement Schedule F.
Which would allow him to remove the safeguards of independence and accountability that comes from civil servants.

I'm not asking how Don will work to implement undemocratic practices, which we can agree falls rather short of the destruction of democracy.

The history of undemocratic practices in the US is testament to this.

For example, can you tell me how he's going to end the rule of the Constitution? How does he intend to stop elections?

Can you clarify if you agree that Trump attempted to overturn the last US election results?
And if you believe the 6th of Jan 2020 was an attempted insurrection or not?

I'm sorry that you need me to clarify.

Don precipitated civil unrest before the 2020 election and proceeded to incite the overturning of a lawful election. The evidence from his nearest and dearest at the time makes it clear that he was manipulating the mob as a means to stay in power.

Don needs special pyjamas and a lot of 'quiet time'.

 

[spinynorman]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2129603

Basically history has shown that high voter turnout tends to result in democrat victory and low voter turnout in republican victory. The simple math says that if you not voting for one side, your failure to vote has aided the other side in reaching victory as their target is lower.

Yes, generally speaking, there are people who often do not vote in the US who can be inspired to do so (when they can overcome the structural hindrances to do so), usually for the Democrats. But that doesn’t mean not voting is a vote for Trump, it means the Democrats need to inspire people to vote. Also some polls indicate working class support is higher for Trump than it has been for a Republican in decades, so I’m not even sure to what extent that rule of thumb is even continuing to apply.

 

[spinynorman]

Honestly the US has been the worlds democracy police since WW2

Give us a break.

Dictators in Chile, Indonesia, South Vietnam, South Korea, Honduras, Iran, Brazil, Cambodia, Taiwan, Cuba, Afghanistan and more thank the United States for their support.

 

[CM86]

I'm not asking how Don will work to implement undemocratic practices, but we can agree that this falls rather short of the destruction of democracy.

For example, can you tell me how he's going to end the rule of the Constitution? How does he intend to stop elections?



I'm sorry that you need me to clarify.

Don precipitated civil unrest before the 2020 election and proceeded to incite the overturning of a lawful election. The evidence from his nearest and dearest at the time makes it clear that he was manipulating the mob as a means to stay in power.

Don needs special pyjamas and a lot of 'quiet time'.

Hang on...

If Trump had succeeded, if Pence hadn't certified the election results, if a handful or people hadn't blocked the fake electors plot, etc etc, what do you think it would have meant for the vote of each 81 million+ people? 51.3% of the people who voted.

What is a democracy if the votes don't count???



You ask how he's going to end the rule of the Constitution. Who's going to stop him?


He was almost successful in overturning the last election results.
How could you possibly say that the democratic system was still functioning if he had succeeded?
Systems don't stop people who work outside of them.
It wasn't the systems that stopped him. It was the few people who put their country, the constitution and the people ahead of themselves, ahead of Maga and ahead of Trump.


Actively not voting against this, actively pushing reasons why other's shouldn't vote against this.
It's the same lines and same results from MAGA.

Not to mention that you could make the argument that much of the global unrest leading to the outcomes you're stating as reason to avoid voting against Trump, are due to Trumps term in office.

 

[GreyCrow]

It's just conditioning Trump supporters to refuse to accept a loss.

I agree with most but this is the core agenda

 

[pjcrows]

Not voting is giving the vote to Donald

Let's say a person was right-leaning, but identified some key reasons that they just couldn't vote for Trump. Perhaps based on their values or morals, as an example, they don't like his verbosity. They decide not to vote, as neither candidate represents them.

Is this giving the vote to Kamala?

 

[Baldur]

How does he intend to stop elections?

Elections will not stop, they hold elections in Russia and China afterall. The same methods of gerrymandering and voter disenfranchisement already used, but super charged, plus fraud in vote counting, media oppression and jailing/banning of opponents. All aided by a subservient supreme court, 90% plus results can be obtained for the dear leader.

 

[Baldur]

Let's say a person was right-leaning, but identified some key reasons that they just couldn't vote for Trump. Perhaps based on their values or morals, as an example, they don't like his verbosity. They decide not to vote, as neither candidate represents them.

Is this giving the vote to Kamala?

In effect, yes. If their choice was only ever Trump or no vote.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Putin has already conquered you, you fool.

 

[JB1975]

Yes, generally speaking, there are people who often do not vote in the US who can be inspired to do so (when they can overcome the structural hindrances to do so), usually for the Democrats. But that doesn’t mean not voting is a vote for Trump, it means the Democrats need to inspire people to vote. Also some polls indicate working class support is higher for Trump than it has been for a Republican in decades, so I’m not even sure to what extent that rule of thumb is even continuing to apply.

The implications of abstaining should certainly be acknowledged, and a higher turnout does generally advantage Dems.

And so the challenge for the Democrats is to get people to the polls, or to put it another way, to not make it impossible for their own supporters to vote for them.

It's one mechanism to try and combat being taken for granted.

 

[OneGreatClub]

 

[Financialpanther]

Let's say a person was right-leaning, but identified some key reasons that they just couldn't vote for Trump. Perhaps based on their values or morals, as an example, they don't like his verbosity. They decide not to vote, as neither candidate represents them.

Is this giving the vote to Kamala?

Apathy gives your vote to the winner.

It doesn't play sides which is your point.

 

[pjcrows]

And so the challenge for the Democrats is to get people to the polls

They find this almost impossible, beyond voter shaming and "the other guy is bad".