USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris

[Chief]

Continued in Part 2

USA - 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

Continued from Part 1 - https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2024-us-presidential-election-trump-vs-harris.1383317/

www.bigfooty.com

 

[magpie_marty]

Can you pls link your source and paste the full quote here m8?

Are you saying Trump has never been critical of judges or the DOJ ??
But just for you the link.

Trump is escalating threats for dissenters — and now suggesting jail: analyst

Former President Donald Trump is speaking more openly than ever about criminalizing dissent, Aaron Blake wrote for The Washington Post."At a rally Monday in Pennsylvania, the former president said for at least the fourth time that criticizing judges and justices either is or should be illegal...

www.rawstory.com

 

[IlovethePies]

I get what you are saying, I maybe as little as 5 years ago thought a more socialist state wasn’t possible due to lack of $$$ to spend etc.

I now recognise that is horeshit, admittedly us and the rest of the western world do a way better job of having a proper welfare state, health care etc than the US but there are still way too many vested interests catered to.

Thing is I think we can get there (maybe naively) by left leaning parties being in power and moving them to the left.

Unfortunately in a lot of history, like the Great Depression and WWII shows you don’t get the working/middle classes looked after until there is total crisis. (LDR’s new deal, social welfare state created after WWII in the western world)

Going accelerationist in the US could go one of two ways. Could be like the aftermath of 1989 in China and just leads to some right wing authoritarian stronghold, or it could lead to the collapse of the current system with dismantling of the current power structure of US politics and new structure for the electoral college, house of reps and senate.

In the US people aren’t as repressed as China circa 1989 and more divided, so could lead to states breaking away, and terror attscks like the troubles in Ireland.

You are forgetting the third way. The working class could overthrow the entire, rotten edifice.
The working class is unaware of how much power it wields. Acting in co-ordination, it could paralyse the entire capitalist economy.

It could destroy Wall St in one stroke by declaring a general strike, closing down the profit gouging and sending share prices into a nosedive.

The working class could sweep society with its energy, and draw all other struggling social layers along for the ride, the ride to expropriate the billionaires, the hedge funds and banks, and make this wealth available for social need, not profit.

But it can only do this if it has at its head a revolutionary party to co-ordinate its actions, and to explain to it the lessons of history.

There is more than enough wealth in society for socialism. At the moment, this enormous social wealth is hoarded by a thin layer of financial parasites who perform no social function other than destablise, sabotage, even destroy rational production processes for their own private profit interests.

Once their wealth is made available to all of society,there will be a transformation in every aspect of human life.

I am not sure what "accelerationist" means, but when you discuss social dynamics it is always essential to analyse reality from the standpoint of social classes, their competing interests, and how they will advance these interests.

If the current system collapses, as you suggest, it won't reemerge as a new structure of electoral colleges, house of reps etc.

There will be a massive class struggle, and it will end up either in fascist dictatorship and barbarism, or the establishment of a proletarian state, as in October 1917, but this time, destined to spread across the entire world.

 

[IlovethePies]

That's a generous description. He's a Trump-simping f***wit.

Many of us suspected he was a f***wit before he took over twitter, and in the time since, he has proven it beyond doubt.

F**** wits are dangerous when they are billionaires and own a gigantic social media platform.

 

[IlovethePies]

Right, so plenty of work there to be done outside of this election.

This is about the 2024 Presidential Election though.

Do you acknowledge then that the best way for Trump to be kept out of the White House, thus buying more time to organise, promote awareness etc of socialist groups and goals, is to vote for Harris?

Or do you prefer to have Trump take office and for him and his party to further erode workers rights and the ability to organise, in a strategic play to accelerate the conditions for your revolution? Knowing that it comes with risks that workers will have fewer rights and worse conditions, potentially for a very long time, if your aims fail to eventuate.

This is a good question.
My answer is unequivocally no.
The SEP makes clear that the working class must utterly tear itself away from any conception that Harris is a "lesser evil".
If a Harris administration were to emerge from this chaos, what would it do?

a) escalate the war in Ukraine. Send more long range missiles to Zelensky... on top of all the previous red lines crossed. What's next? US troops to Ukraine...and daring Putin to start a nuclear war.

b) keep sending arms, weaponry to Netanyahu as his regime rampages through Lebanon, and provokes a war with Iran.

c) drive up the exploitation of the working class through the AFL-CIO bureaucracy by continuing to impose below inflation wage deals (new hires $20/hr) and brutal working conditions. Only in this way can the continued functioning of Wall st be defended. The US debt is exploding exponentially, investors world wide will only back the dollar if the next administration proves that it can gouge enough profits from the working class to sustain profit rates and therefore maintain confidence in the US dollar.

d) Gut social spending (health, education, social security) to pay for the massive expansion of the US military.

d) Ultimately, turn to the US military to step in and repress the inevitable opposition provoked by grotesque inequality levels and the drive to war.
In other words, the Democrats, just like the Republicans, will sooner rather than later turn to dictatorial forms of rule.

To tell workers to vote for the Democrats would be a historic blunder, because it would sow confusion about where events are heading, and from whom they must break.

 

[FireKrakouer]

Are you saying Trump has never been critical of judges or the DOJ ??
But just for you the link.

Trump is escalating threats for dissenters — and now suggesting jail: analyst

Former President Donald Trump is speaking more openly than ever about criminalizing dissent, Aaron Blake wrote for The Washington Post."At a rally Monday in Pennsylvania, the former president said for at least the fourth time that criticizing judges and justices either is or should be illegal...

www.rawstory.com

That's a heavily biased article who's "source" is another heavily biased article that takes quotes out of context m8. A famous quote by me that many of my fans have shared is "long-form issues can not be summed up by short-form content."

I'm told that some have even had this line tattooed upon themselves (EasternTiger?) It sums up the reason why some people hate Joe Rogan, for example.

Even though it is 2024, many people are still believing everything they read online without scepticism if it backs up their biases. A recent example was carltonchelsea when she shared an obviously fake tweet purportedly written by Trump's son.

Rather than anger, we must show compassion for these folks and teach them essential critical thinking abilities!

 

[IlovethePies]

Contested Marx

Would love to hear what you contest about Marx.

 

[Bloods86]

This is a good question.
My answer is unequivocally no.
The SEP makes clear that the working class must utterly tear itself away from any conception that Harris is a "lesser evil".
If a Harris administration were to emerge from this chaos, what would it do?

a) escalate the war in Ukraine. Send more long range missiles to Zelensky... on top of all the previous red lines crossed. What's next? US troops to Ukraine...and daring Putin to start a nuclear war.

b) keep sending arms, weaponry to Netanyahu as his regime rampages through Lebanon, and provokes a war with Iran.

c) drive up the exploitation of the working class through the AFL-CIO bureaucracy by continuing to impose below inflation wage deals (new hires $20/hr) and brutal working conditions. Only in this way can the continued functioning of Wall st be defended. The US debt is exploding exponentially, investors world wide will only back the dollar if the next administration proves that it can gouge enough profits from the working class to sustain profit rates and therefore maintain confidence in the US dollar.

d) Gut social spending (health, education, social security) to pay for the massive expansion of the US military.

d) Ultimately, turn to the US military to step in and repress the inevitable opposition provoked by grotesque inequality levels and the drive to war.
In other words, the Democrats, just like the Republicans, will sooner rather than later turn to dictatorial forms of rule.

To tell workers to vote for the Democrats would be a historic blunder, because it would sow confusion about where events are heading, and from whom they must break.

Well, the more people think like you, the more likely it is for Trump to be the next US President. Pathetic really.

Where none of the above would be better, most would be worse, except in your eyes, maybe cutting off funding/equipment to Ukraine, to help Russia continue it's imperialism and ethnic cleansing, and move closer to additional NATO borders that it pretends to be concerned about (all of which you seem more than comfortable with).

 

[IlovethePies]

Well, the more people think like you, the more likely it is for Trump to be the next US President. Pathetic really.

Where none of the above would be better, most would be worse, except in your eyes, maybe cutting off funding/equipment to Ukraine, to help Russia continue it's imperialism and ethnic cleansing, and move closer to additional NATO borders that it pretends to be concerned about (all of which you seem more than comfortable with).

Ok Bloods, sad that you have taken that from what I wrote.

Russia is not carrying out ethnic cleansing in Ukraine

If you want to oppose ethnic cleansing you should be talking about what Israel is doing right now.

I am opposed to war, everywhere in the world. That is what I am fighting for.

 

[Crankyhawk]

He and Vance face criminal charges.

Trump and Vance face criminal charges over Springfield hoax

An Ohio law allowing citizens to file criminal charges is being used to target former President Donald Trump and Sen. J.D. Vance (R-OH) over their comments about Haitians in Springfield.According to Fox 8, the Haitian Bridge Alliance filed criminal charges against the two Republican candidates...

www.rawstory.com

Hope they stick....They both should be in jail for lying and inciting violence.

trump and Vance will hold ths as another example of "weaponising the justice system"

useless freaks whose mothers should have swallowed

there come after me ya useless excuses for excrement, if your inflammatory opinion is free to sya then so is mine. Ya useless excuses for flea bitten dogs.

 

[IlovethePies]

impossible to stop Trump through the courts.

a)Many judges are just pro-Trump

b) Those who aren't will make decisions according to capitalist laws. They will then be contested and dragged endlessly through the very same coursts with Trump's army of prostituted lawyers.

By the time the case is scheduled to be heard, more than six months will have elapsed.

 

[Bloods86]

Ok Bloods, sad that you have taken that from what I wrote.

Russia is not carrying out ethnic cleansing in Ukraine

If you want to oppose ethnic cleansing you should be talking about what Israel is doing right now.

I am opposed to war, everywhere in the world. That is what I am fighting for.

I am opposed to what Israel is doing right now.

That won't get better with Trump, it's more likely to get worse.

Even though you admit there are worse aspects of a Trump presidency, you seem to think that it's OK to help achieve that result (by people on the left not voting for Harris). To gain absolutely nothing. Socialist movements can continue on regardless of who is in power, so why not at least prevent Trump.

 

[IlovethePies]

I am opposed to what Israel is doing right now.

That won't get better with Trump, it's more likely to get worse.

Even though you admit there are worse aspects of a Trump presidency, you seem to think that it's OK to help achieve that result (by people on the left not voting for Harris). To gain absolutely nothing. Socialist movements can continue on regardless of who is in power, so why not at least prevent Trump.

The support for Israel will be the same, whether Trump or Harris is president. Both support Israel to the hilt because Israel is the spearhead for US imperialism. The tasks of the Netanyahu government, on behalf of US imperialism,are:

i) carry out ethnic cleansing against the population of Gaza
ii) seize significant territory from Lebanon
iii) prepare a war against Iran

The aim of US imperialism is to dominate the Middle East, choke of oil supplies to its rivals (mainly China), destroy Russian influence (in Syria) and prepare military bases for the encirclement and destabilisation of Russia.

Both Trump and Harris agree with this perspective.

The only way that the working class can assert its independent interests is through its own active political intervention. If the revolutionary leadership of the working class were to tell workers that they should support Harris, this would totally derail the working class movement. It would throw workers back into the same horrible trap: that they can defend their interests (even temporarily) by supporting Harris.

A harris administration would in no way " give workers time to organise and regroup". It is just as hostile to the working class as Trump. It simply presents itself in a different, more "palatable" ( to some) way.

There is no way forward for the working class unless it breaks totally from the Democrats, and advances its own program.
Once it does that, this will be a beacon not just for the US working class, but for the working class internationally.

 

[Bloods86]

The support for Israel will be the same, whether Trump or Harris is president. Both support Israel to the hilt because Israel is the spearhead for US imperialism. The tasks of the Netanyahu government, on behalf of US imperialism,are:

i) carry out ethnic cleansing against the population of Gaza
ii) seize significant territory from Lebanon
iii) prepare a war against Iran

The aim of US imperialism is to dominate the Middle East, choke of oil supplies to its rivals (mainly China), destroy Russian influence (in Syria) and prepare military bases for the encirclement and destabilisation of Russia.

Both Trump and Harris agree with this perspective.

The only way that the working class can assert its independent interests is through its own active political intervention. If the revolutionary leadership of the working class were to tell workers that they should support Harris, this would totally derail the working class movement. It would throw workers back into the same horrible trap: that they can defend their interests (even temporarily) by supporting Harris.

A harris administration would in no way " give workers time to organise and regroup". It is just as hostile to the working class as Trump. It simply presents itself in a different, more "palatable" ( to some) way.

There is no way forward for the working class unless it breaks totally from the Democrats, and advances its own program.
Once it does that, this will be a beacon not just for the US working class, but for the working class internationally.

Well, people like you help Trump. Even though you have admitted differences, you're more than happy to help, or at least support those who would have the worse candidate win.

Sad to see.

 

[IlovethePies]

Well, people like you help Trump. Even though you have admitted differences, you're more than happy to help, or at least support those who would have the worse candidate win.

Sad to see.

Yeah, likewise, sad to see that you have drawn this conclusion.
I hope you will reconsider what I am actually saying.

Of course, up to you.

 

[rank and file]

That's a heavily biased article who's "source" is another heavily biased article that takes quotes out of context m8. A famous quote by me that many of my fans have shared is "long-form issues can not be summed up by short-form content."

I'm told that some have even had this line tattooed upon themselves (EasternTiger?) It sums up the reason why some people hate Joe Rogan, for example.

Even though it is 2024, many people are still believing everything they read online without scepticism if it backs up their biases. A recent example was carltonchelsea when she shared an obviously fake tweet purportedly written by Trump's son.

Rather than anger, we must show compassion for these folks and teach them essential critical thinking abilities!

Astute post as well as giving me a laugh.

Hang on to your hat,October surprise should be good.
Both campaigns are pumping millions per day
and they haven't even hit the home straight.

 

[Satan]

Warning contains allegations of a sexual nature

 

[E Shed]

Astute post as well as giving me a laugh.

Hang on to your hat,October surprise should be good.
Both campaigns are pumping millions per day
and they haven't even hit the home straight.

His writing has certainly improved since he started using AI but the different personalities he/she/it uses still confuses me at times.

 

[GreyCrow]

I am opposed to war, everywhere in the world. That is what I am fighting for.

Sorry I find this amusing

'' Im a pacifist and I'll kill anyone who disagrees ''

 

[kane249]

That's a generous description. He's a Trump-simping f***wit.

Many of us suspected he was a f***wit before he took over twitter, and in the time since, he has proven it beyond doubt.

Where I lost respect for Elon was his conduct on the Thailand cave rescue from a few years ago.

He and his SpaceX engineers came in and tried to be the hero and get them to use a submarine they designed to get the boys out. (Watch 'The Rescue' or any of the other documentaries on the situation to see how impractical a rigid device was going to be in narrow, twisting tunnels).

He got ridiculed by the experienced cave divers for him trying to push his dumb solution to the problem, and responded by calling them pedos on Twitter (lucky to escape that defamation trial IMO).

Should have been the warning then to people he was an egotistical idiot who has to always be right (even when what he is saying is dumb), and acts like a toddler when he gets shown up.

 

[Mick F]

Well, people like you help Trump. Even though you have admitted differences, you're more than happy to help, or at least support those who would have the worse candidate win.

Sad to see.

And rather than do anything about it he sits at home, boring the people on BF shitless. He confuses being a self indulgent twat with ‘fighting’.

Last time I checked none of you determine LNP or Labor policy.

 

[Jamolad]

The support for Israel will be the same, whether Trump or Harris is president. Both support Israel to the hilt because Israel is the spearhead for US imperialism. The tasks of the Netanyahu government, on behalf of US imperialism,are:

i) carry out ethnic cleansing against the population of Gaza
ii) seize significant territory from Lebanon
iii) prepare a war against Iran

The aim of US imperialism is to dominate the Middle East, choke of oil supplies to its rivals (mainly China), destroy Russian influence (in Syria) and prepare military bases for the encirclement and destabilisation of Russia.

Both Trump and Harris agree with this perspective.

The only way that the working class can assert its independent interests is through its own active political intervention. If the revolutionary leadership of the working class were to tell workers that they should support Harris, this would totally derail the working class movement. It would throw workers back into the same horrible trap: that they can defend their interests (even temporarily) by supporting Harris.

A harris administration would in no way " give workers time to organise and regroup". It is just as hostile to the working class as Trump. It simply presents itself in a different, more "palatable" ( to some) way.

There is no way forward for the working class unless it breaks totally from the Democrats, and advances its own program.
Once it does that, this will be a beacon not just for the US working class, but for the working class internationally.

What you yearn for sounds good on the surface, but when the workers rise up and take power, who then runs the show?

And within that ruling class, how do you prevent the next Stalin from turning it into authoritarian socialism in order to prevent counter-revolution? Your Utopia is still going to have many that are unhappy with the change, and they'll be sowing discord and being a continual threat? Go on a purge?

Seems to me total socialism has been tried many times throughout history and ends up a dictatorial shit-show. Our system is not perfect, but the right mix of capitalism and socialism in a democratic society like Australia and Canada and most of the west is the sweet spot as far as I am concerned.

Sorry, not signing up for your world-wide revolution.

 

[Satan]

 

[LuvtheKangas]

F**** wits are dangerous when they are billionaires and own a gigantic social media platform.

Absolutely. And f**** wits are dangerous when they are billionaires and are running for president of the US to avoid jail, grift and take revenge.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

That's a heavily biased article who's "source" is another heavily biased article that takes quotes out of context m8. A famous quote by me that many of my fans have shared is "long-form issues can not be summed up by short-form content."

I'm told that some have even had this line tattooed upon themselves (EasternTiger?) It sums up the reason why some people hate Joe Rogan, for example.

Even though it is 2024, many people are still believing everything they read online without scepticism if it backs up their biases. A recent example was carltonchelsea when she shared an obviously fake tweet purportedly written by Trump's son.

Rather than anger, we must show compassion for these folks and teach them essential critical thinking abilities!

More of the same from FK. Misinformation peddler chides others for falling for misinformation

On another note - is it true, as alleged elsewhere in this thread, that you fabricated your family story? You know, the Maori partner (good for the "hey, I can't be a racist, I'm married to a brown girl" vibe) and brown child that you kept referencing a while back.

I'd be disappointed, and a little disturbed, to find that you just made this up.

 

[Mick F]

A truism of US politics is that older voters prefer the Republican and younger voters prefer the Democrats. But women are not the only voters that Trump has alienated.

No surprise that ‘baby boomers’ do not stand with extremism, chaos and lack of civility - unlike young males.