Past #23: Kieran Harper - delisted by the club (29/10) - will miss '16 VAFA season, surgery on ankle

[Black Diamond]

I would take Harper over Jacobs. Without question.

And it would be with fingers crossed too. It would be little more than a guess. Everyone likes the idea of Harper (I do too) but the reality is a little different.

I'm one of those posters who has pushed the 'well he's not suited to VFL level but his game would be good at AFL level' err, nonsense. I just think some (very few) players are better at the highest level and I include Harps in that.

I completely agree with this. There are some players who need to play at the highest level in order to play their best. However those players typically are still serviceable at the lower levels, which Harper isn't. They still are able to justify getting selected in the seniors at a minimum, which Harper can't.

Just on the possession thing; yeah he does need to get it more often. But, at the same time, I think people may be basing it on some 20+ possession standard that isn't realistic for the sorts of role/s he plays.

That's why I look towards total impact rather than possessions. Again, if not kicking a goal or tackling, what does Harper do? Shepherd? Handball? He is rarely part of scoring chains and I believe Turner already has him covered in that respect. So does McKenzie for total impact on a game. With Harper, you can't even say that "10 disposals by him is equal to 20 by <insert player>" because it just isn't true. It's highlight or bust.

 

[Kimbo]

And it would be with fingers crossed too. It would be little more than a guess. Everyone likes the idea of Harper (I do too) but the reality is a little different.

I completely agree with this. There are some players who need to play at the highest level in order to play their best. However those players typically are still serviceable at the lower levels, which Harper isn't. They still are able to justify getting selected in the seniors at a minimum, which Harper can't.

That's why I look towards total impact rather than possessions. Again, if not kicking a goal or tackling, what does Harper do? Shepherd? Handball? He is rarely part of scoring chains and I believe Turner already has him covered in that respect. So does McKenzie for total impact on a game. With Harper, you can't even say that "10 disposals by him is equal to 20 by <insert player>" because it just isn't true. It's highlight or bust.

Sounds like you've stamped his papers then?

 

[Black Diamond]

Sounds like you've stamped his papers then?

I've got the ink ready. I'm going to say it's unlikely he will get it together and won't be in our best 22 next season. His skills and hope are the main reasons to keep him on the list.

 

[Grogg]

I'd take serviceable 70% of the time over invisible 80% of the time.

Unless Harps can up his ability to be a serviceable player when he ain't being brilliant he will never make it.

Pretty much my thoughts to a tee.

I'm personally of the opinion that trying him inside has done more harm than good and was only likely to be a success if we stayed the course. By that I mean more than just a week or two at the role and then back to the fwd line when he was not adjusting or performing. For a young player who never racked up huge numbers as a junior & struggled with mental lapses ball watching it was going to take serious time before results would be evident. The foot injury only compounded the issue as well.But hey hindsight is pretty pointless at this stage (other than to have a little dig at his development, which I now have.)

The raw data that we are left with now shows an exceptionally talented young man averaging similar numbers to Flash when he was delisted. Luckily Harps has none of the known off field baggage that saw Matt cop the sarse.

He should see out his contract without doubt, but it's going to be a very long road back to his 2012 form from here.

Hope to God he makes it, it would be such a huge waste of talent if it wasn't realised.

 

[True North]

His highest possession game in the juniors was 17. He couldn't go 5 minutes in the midfield back in the day.

Can't build a tank = game over.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Pretty much my thoughts to a tee.

I'm personally of the opinion that trying him inside has done more harm than good and was only likely to be a success if we stayed the course. By that I mean more than just a week or two at the role and then back to the fwd line when he was not adjusting or performing. For a young player who never racked up huge numbers as a junior & struggled with mental lapses ball watching it was going to take serious time before results would be evident. The foot injury only compounded the issue as well.But hey hindsight is pretty pointless at this stage (other than to have a little dig at his development, which I now have.)

The raw data that we are left with now shows an exceptionally talented young man averaging similar numbers to Flash when he was delisted. Luckily Harps has none of the known off field baggage that saw Matt cop the sarse.

He should see out his contract without doubt, but it's going to be a very long road back to his 2012 form from here.

Hope to God he makes it, it would be such a huge waste of talent if it wasn't realised.

If he makes it i will be doing ****ing cartwheels.

He is the kind of player that all teams want. Big, quick, athletic and skillful. If i could choose one player that i would want to make it, it is Harps.

 

[DaveyBoy123]

His highest possession game in the juniors was 17. He couldn't go 5 minutes in the midfield back in the day.

Can't build a tank = game over.

People (mainly Collingwood supporters) have been asking me over the past week or 2 why did Levi improve so much in 2014. Without hesitation, I answered that he cut down his weight & got leaner. This allowed him to run out games better, run defensively better & even maybe add a yard or two of pace. Look at photos of Levi from 2-3 years back & then of last year.

This is what Kieran Harper has to do as well: Get rid of that goddamn puppy fat. I know injuries have not helped him do this, but it's what is required.

 

[Hunters Host #3]

Good post Grogg.

I've also wondered about whether the inside mid role, should have been persisted with longer, and/or if it was detrimental to his development.

Regardless I have a feeling that he'll be trialled in a role behind the ball moving forward, if the end of his season is any indication. Particularly with Garner, Adams, Turner and now Higgins ahead of him, probably spending time in high half-forward roles.

Five weeks out from finals, he was moved to the half-back line. He actually performed quite well and looked settled (with 20 odd touches) first up in that role. He injured his ankle the following week, then missed completely the week after. Returned the following week in a similar role and was quiet, before injuring his other ankle a week later which effectively ended his season. So, the following month, after he performed well in that position, he injured himself in 2 games and missed one completely, not able to settle at all.

It's a role, which the coaching staff may experiment with, but in a year where he'll be coming from a long way back, he'll need to adapt quick smart.

 

[muttley45]

Cyril Rioli has a 9 posession ( 5K/4H ) , 2 tackles, zero score, game in the Grand Final, not too many people shitcanning him for not " finding the pill "
in fact, he got quite a few plaudits for influencing the game, he is an impact player who applies pressure, real and inferred, and has pace, and X factor, i put Harps in this category, and he isn't going to give the Supercoach generation reason to rate him by racking up big stats, but it is a role that is very valuable to a team in the modern game, you cant just have a team of midfield accumulators, i am in the glass half full camp, and hopefully he gets over the injury hurdle and gets his mojo back, we have seen what he is capable of, one more year , make or break time, go Harps

 

[Tas]

The problem was the club recruited him looking for him to transition into a midfielder, you don't necessarily need all your half-forwards to be midfielders.

Brad just loves his clones.

 

[roos_fanatic08]

People (mainly Collingwood supporters) have been asking me over the past week or 2 why did Levi improve so much in 2014. Without hesitation, I answered that he cut down his weight & got leaner. This allowed him to run out games better, run defensively better & even maybe add a yard or two of pace. Look at photos of Levi from 2-3 years back & then of last year.

This is what Kieran Harper has to do as well: Get rid of that goddamn puppy fat. I know injuries have not helped him do this, but it's what is required.

Serioiusly? Harper is one of the leanest on our list, his has quite a good tank and his times across 3km is usually within our top ten.

Its his explosiveness that has been hampered by those ankle injuries which is effecting the way he gets to space and the way he gets away from the contest.





Not a bit of puppy fat on him!

 

[muttley45]

Appears to have downsized guns from 44 magnum to 32 snub nose :

 

[utility]

If Cooney joins us then Harps is waaaaaay back in the pecking order as a HFF - he probably is already. He'd be starting behind Ziebell, Higgins, (Cooney), LT, Wood, Turner, and probably Adams and Garner as well. Not saying he can't make it as a HFF but he'll need to impress the coaching staff. HFF can be a graveyard and I don't see him improving at all in the VFL if played there.

If he can step up as a HBF then it frees up LMac to move into the middle. That would be awesome but unproven.

I'm not willing to write him off as I'd consider his defensive attributes, foot skills and pace to be well above the club average, but it wouldn't surprise me if he is delisted in 12 months from now (or have a break out season).

 

[Moti]

If Cooney joins us then Harps is waaaaaay back in the pecking order as a HFF - he probably is already. He'd be starting behind Ziebell, Higgins, (Cooney), LT, Wood, Turner, and probably Adams and Garner as well. Not saying he can't make it as a HFF but he'll need to impress the coaching staff. HFF can be a graveyard and I don't see him improving at all in the VFL if played there.

If he can step up as a HBF then it frees up LMac to move into the middle. That would be awesome but unproven.

I'm not willing to write him off as I'd consider his defensive attributes, foot skills and pace to be well above the club average, but it wouldn't surprise me if he is delisted in 12 months from now (or have a break out season).

Exactly.

We need a quick rebounding defender who is good in the air and puts on defensive pressure. That is Harper.

I think a full preseason and a chance in one position is what he needs.

 

[B-Rock]

People talking about using Harper in a low possession impact role.

Hasn't Turner shown he plays this role better than Harper ever did?

I used to love Kieran Harper. Oodles of talent and class, but doesn't find another of the pill.

I'd give him another year, but it would speculative at best.

 

[Tas]

Turner only had 8 disposals vs Geelong in the SF. Can't Get The Ball [tm] delist.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

People are too concerned with measuring impact with just disposals, it is so much more than that.

 

[Black Diamond]

That is just it though. Harper doesn't impact the game beyond his goals and tackles.

Turner and Rioli both do, even though they only get the ball roughly the same amount.

 

[Tas]

That is just it though. Harper doesn't impact the game beyond his goals and tackles.

Turner and Rioli both do, even though they only get the ball roughly the same amount.

He was a half-forward, kicking goals, kicking it inside 50, creating goals and press tackling is his job description. He just wasn't a stat padder, like say Boomer where he could get 10 disposals in one passage of play which may or may not result in anything. Boomer doesn't do it to pad his stats but these give and get very short range disposals are important for creating space and run but only a significantly smaller portion of his disposals were damaging disposals.

Harper was extremely efficient, he had the pace and agility so that when he got the ball he didn't need to fart arse around with much chipping the ball around, he gunned it and quite often delivered the ball inside 50 and for every 8 disposals he kicked a goal. Not getting the ball was a problem, but that is only partly his fault, we had a lot of plonkers who didn't look for Wells or Harvey or Harper and who just launched long kicks to nobody in particular.

He needed fine tuning, the way he was developed was gross incompetence and shattered his confidence. You just don't get Black Caviar to pull a plough, that is for the Clydesdales.

Just looking at Harper's his 2012 stats, while statistically he didn't get a lot of the ball he had amazing efficiency and significant impact given he only played 59.3% of game time in 2012, and his game time was restricted due to having all of Harper, Harvey, Adams, Thomas and Campbell playing.

While he only had 202 disposals in 2012, he had 63 inside 50s so about 1 in 3 kicks was a kick inside 50, you might say 9 disposals a game wasn't a lot but that was 3 inside 50s. If you pro rata his stats based on Boomer's time on ground he would have surpassed even Boomer from that group and left the others for dead.

He has now had injuries and his confidence has been shattered, judging him now is like Judging LT when he had the goal kicking yips. If he is de-listed or is no good, our club is primarily at fault. He has been doing everything asked of him by the coaches. If we don't just accept him for being a damaging half-forward, something all the contenders have, then we will have effectively flushed his career down the toilet.

Focus should have always been to make him a better half-forward. You want fast skillful midfielders then recruit fast ****ing midfielders, don't try and destroy a half-forward's career just because you have left a massive hole in our recruitment and development.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Turner only had 8 disposals vs Geelong in the SF. Can't Get The Ball [tm] delist.

Fair enough point, but 1 year on the list v how many years of backwards progress?

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

I'm going to back him (as long as he isn't delisted this year) alongside Jacobs in the long-term if they can get both a full pre-season in with matches in the nab cup. Play the HB/Mcmillian role in the VFL and as l said earlier, get him to follow Gibson all summer.

 

[R00StaR]

If he makes it i will be doing ******* cartwheels.

He is the kind of player that all teams want. Big, quick, athletic and skillful. If i could choose one player that i would want to make it, it is Harps.

Yep he's worth persevering with, id want to see steady improvement this year. Not expecting him to smash it and not sure if he should be HB or HF, wouldnt hurt to learn HB to gain touch confidence and flexibility.

If he shows that improvement id be willing to offer him another year. He's still young and has all the attributes we want and need, while not an inside mid like Levi it did take him a while to find his feet.

 

[giantroo]

Nick Bowen ‏@AFL_Nick 28s28 seconds ago
Kieran Harper has emerged as a key part of North's proposed deal for Adam Cooney. Story on http://AFL.com.au soon

 

[nelroo]

Nick Bowen ‏@AFL_Nick 28s28 seconds ago
Kieran Harper has emerged as a key part of North's proposed deal for Adam Cooney. Story on http://AFL.com.au soon

Not liking this at all!

 

[giantroo]

Nick Bowen ‏@AFL_Nick 32s33 seconds ago
Kieran Harper could be on the move to the Dogs as part of Cooney deal. Has completed a medical test http://bit.ly/1v6QEm9