Play Nice 46th President of the United States: Joe Biden 2: Incidit in scyllam cupiens vitare charybdim

[Rayzorwire]

I hate Biden’s handling of the Israel conflict, though if I was a US citizen id still be voting for him as the alternative of Trump getting in could see the end of democracy as we know it in America.

We really may be at the point now where either winning ends in the same result - widespread chaos and violence.

Neither side is gonna accept losing.

For all the dems faults, I’d still be pragmatic.

Speaking as an Australian or global citizen, I actually prefer Trump by a stinking, filthy whisker.

Globally, less people will die, I don't see a lot of difference on any other key areas of needed reforms.

From Australia's perspective, I hope it makes us seriously re-think the US alliance and where we are headed into the future by continuing to blindly follow their insane, self-destructive policies.

Also on the simple fact that if the left-wing of the Democrats can't get their act together and reclaim the party following another electoral disaster leading to four more years of Trump, then they never will - in which case, Democrat or Republican, it's all the same ongoing mess into the future.

 

[Blue1980]

We really may be at the point now where either winning ends in the same result - widespread chaos and violence.

Neither side is gonna accept losing.





Speaking as an Australian or global citizen, I actually prefer Trump by a stinking, filthy whisker.

Globally, less people will die, I don't see a lot of difference on any other key areas of needed reforms.

From Australia's perspective, I hope it makes us seriously re-think the US alliance and where we are headed into the future by continuing to blindly follow their insane, self-destructive policies.

Also on the simple fact that if the left-wing of the Democrats can't get their act together and reclaim the party following another electoral disaster leading to four more years of Trump, then they never will - in which case, Democrat or Republican, it's all the same ongoing mess into the future.

Why do you think less people would die with trump?

Only positive of Trump could mean a serious reckoning for the US and countries like us being allies with them as well as how shit and ineffective the democrats are, and they can have a purge of the corporate dems/civility libs with people who want legitimate progressive policies the electorate want.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Why do you think less people would die with trump?

As useless and damaging an arse-clown as he was and is, Trump didn't start any wars, he ended Afghanistan (would Biden have?), he tried to pull the plug on the illegal (established with no UN permission and no permission of the local government) US bases in Syria and Iraq, and he really does seem to genuinely believe in dominance though trade (on his uneven terms, of course) over war for ideology cooked up by the usual suspects.

He had a dialogue going with all the 'demagogues' where nothing particularly constructive happened, but it's undeniably better than screaming insults at 40 paces like both the Obama and Biden admins did and have done when engaging in 'diplomacy' with their 'rivals.'

Literally the only time the NYT said something good about Trump (and there was a small handful of mostly minor things he did which were decent policy on anyone's terms), was when he ordered a missile strike in Syria.

Crucially, I think Trump actually may be slightly saner than Biden when it comes to doing the unthinkable with that button.

Only positive of Trump could mean a serious reckoning for the US and countries like us being allies with them as well as how s**t and ineffective the democrats are, and they can have a purge of the corporate dems/civility libs with people who want legitimate progressive policies the electorate want.

That's decades overdue and I'd certainly cheer it on.

 

[Blue1980]

As useless and damaging an arse-clown as he was and is, Trump didn't start any wars, he ended Afghanistan (would Biden have?), he tried to pull the plug on the illegal (established with no UN permission and no permission of the local government) US bases in Syria and Iraq, and he really does seem to genuinely believe in dominance though trade (on his uneven terms, of course) over war for ideology cooked up by the usual suspects.

He had a dialogue going with all the 'demagogues' where nothing particularly constructive happened, but it's undeniably better than screaming insults at 40 paces like both the Obama and Biden admins did and have done when engaging in 'diplomacy' with their 'rivals.'

Literally the only time the NYT said something good about Trump (and there was a small handful of mostly minor things he did which were decent policy on anyone's terms), was when he ordered a missile strike in Syria.

Crucially, I think Trump actually may be slightly saner than Biden when it comes to doing the unthinkable with that button.





That's decades overdue and I'd certainly cheer it on.

Biden ended Afghanistan actually.

Also drone strikes were like 4 times greater under trump and he nearly begun a war with Iran too.

Biden hasn’t started any wars either. Can’t really blame him for Russia invading Ukraine or supporting Ukraine, nor do I blame him for October 7, however I 100% blame him for cheering Israel’s response on and funding them post then.

In saying that I can’t see trump behaving any differently re Israel, possibly somehow worse.

What would change my mind would be if Biden was wanting a war in Iran with ground troops, but I think only old school war hawk neo con republicans like Lindsay Graham want that.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

If you direct me to another news site which reports on the ACTUAL DEFENSE MOTION FILED, we could discuss on the basis of that article, if you prefer.

Which I strongly suspect you won't, because like so many Biden supporters, you apparently prefer playing the man and attacking the source, over engaging with the actual substance.

I'm yet to see a Biden supporter not lose their pants up a flag pole trying to argue on actual substance, maybe you'll surprise me and be the first?

1. I'm not a Biden supporter. I'm anti-Trump. For very good reasons.

2. If there is a credible source, maybe you should have posted it, instead of parroting from a cooker site.

3. Re 2, I bet you won't find a credible source. Indeed, you won't even try and instead just mumble on about how others should find it if they want to dispute it. That's not how reasoned debate works.

 

[EagleMan87]

Biden still really wants to do the civility liberal s**t, he’s calling him a loser like some uptight proper person saying a naughty word.

I want Brandon to go really dark!

Honestly, that's probably worse to Trump than any genuine slur.

 

[EagleMan87]

Speaking as an Australian or global citizen, I actually prefer Trump by a stinking, filthy whisker.

Globally, less people will die, I don't see a lot of difference on any other key areas of needed reforms.

From Australia's perspective, I hope it makes us seriously re-think the US alliance and where we are headed into the future by continuing to blindly follow their insane, self-destructive policies.

Also on the simple fact that if the left-wing of the Democrats can't get their act together and reclaim the party following another electoral disaster leading to four more years of Trump, then they never will - in which case, Democrat or Republican, it's all the same ongoing mess into the future.

What do you consider the needed reforms?

And I'd suggest taking the Republicans plans upon regaining power seriously; they will dismantle their democracy piece-by-piece, and that's not good for us at all.

Policy | Project 2025

This book is the product of more than 400 scholars and policy experts from across the conservative movement and around the country. Contributors include former elected officials, world-renowned economists, and veterans from four presidential Administrations. This is an agenda prepared by and for...

www.project2025.org

 

[GreyCrow]

It’s not that they will vote trump, many just won’t vote

Michigan's large Arab American and Muslim American populations turned out big for Biden in 2020, helping him clinch the battleground and solidify his win over Donald Trump for the presidency. AP reported that 64% of Muslims nationwide supported Biden in 2020, while 35% supported Trump. And in heavily Arab American counties in Michigan, voters went for Biden by a little less than 70%.

Biden's margin of victory in Michigan was 154,000 votes. The state is home to more than 200,000 registered voters who are Muslim and 300,000 people claim ancestry from the Middle East and North Africa. Michigan's Arab American population includes Muslims and Christians, along with recent immigrants and families whose ancestors arrived in the late 1800s alike.

Again I'm sure someone is doing the math and 29% isn't enough to overcome 154,000 votes imo

 

[Rayzorwire]

Biden ended Afghanistan actually.

Trump ended the war, Biden was in charge for the final withdrawal of the last remaining troops and the handover.

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf

Also drone strikes were like 4 times greater under trump and he nearly begun a war with Iran too.

On the former, I haven't seen any info to that effect (are we talking the subsequent, or previous Dem admin?), while I don't really think there's a case to say Trump brought the US closer to a war with Iran than the current or some previous admins have.

That's my honest take, not arguing the point for the sake of it.

Biden hasn’t started any wars either. Can’t really blame him for Russia invading Ukraine or supporting Ukraine,

I think he can very much be blamed for not just allowing Russia it's pretty reasonable security guarantees back in December 2021. I think in preference he very much wanted to weaken Russia instead, with regime change the ultimate hope.

Plan A has backfired spectacularly and it very much seems like nobody in the White House had the smarts to charge into Ukraine also in possession of a plan B.

I think he can also very much be blamed for encouraging Ukraine to refuse the 2022 peace talks solution - which is looking like the best deal Ukraine will ever have a chance to accept by an ever increasing amount of miles.

In saying that I can’t see trump behaving any differently re Israel, possibly somehow worse.

Agreed mate.

What would change my mind would be if Biden was wanting a war in Iran with ground troops, but I think only old school war hawk neo con republicans like Lindsay Graham want that.

At this point, the way they're copping it all over the Middle East, his choices will be impotence, or escalation to a level I don't really want to imagine.

Thankfully, so far, Operation Prosperity Guardian and related events have seen a very deliberate PR campaign to avoid showing how impotent the US really is out there, so lets hope they are happy that is enough.

I really doubt it will be after the three dead servicemen.

 

[Rayzorwire]

1. I'm not a Biden supporter. I'm anti-Trump. For very good reasons.

2. If there is a credible source, maybe you should have posted it, instead of parroting from a cooker site.

3. Re 2, I bet you won't find a credible source. Indeed, you won't even try and instead just mumble on about how others should find it if they want to dispute it. That's not how reasoned debate works.

Are you arguing that the defence motion doesn't actually exist?

Or that it does exist, but we should only actually acknowledge it, if it's reported by the right kind of media outlets?

Is there some kind of list you can share of approved media?

Are you enjoying the view you've created?

I am.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Are you arguing that the defence motion doesn't actually exist?

Or that it does exist, but we should only actually acknowledge it, if it's reported by the right kind of media outlets?

Is there some kind of list you can share of approved media?

Are you enjoying the view you've created?

I am.

D'uh, of course the defence motion exists. I'm looking for the credible source on the "'Disturbing' Collusion Between Biden White House and Trump Prosecutors" and wondering how credible the article can be when it asserts "key Biden officials in cahoots from day 1".

Post it when you find it.

 

[Rayzorwire]

What do you consider the needed reforms?

That's a thesis length post, but at the core, it's simply about more equitable wealth distribution, a sustainable environment for our children, and far more global cooperation instead of competition and war.

And I'd suggest taking the Republicans plans upon regaining power seriously; they will dismantle their democracy piece-by-piece, and that's not good for us at all.

Policy | Project 2025

This book is the product of more than 400 scholars and policy experts from across the conservative movement and around the country. Contributors include former elected officials, world-renowned economists, and veterans from four presidential Administrations. This is an agenda prepared by and for...

www.project2025.org

I totally agree most of the Repub's are a disaster waiting to happen with infinitely scary overtones.

It might switch in coming months (I doubt it), but at this stage I see Biden as the slightly more evil of two lessers.

 

[Rayzorwire]

D'uh, of course the defence motion exists. I'm looking for the credible source on the "'Disturbing' Collusion Between Biden White House and Trump Prosecutors" and wondering how credible the article can be when it asserts "key Biden officials in cahoots from day 1".

Post it when you find it.

Aha...so what you're really insisting on is an article critical of Biden on these issues, from a left-wing media source?

Nearly broke my nose snorting!

I'll post an article from a left-wing media source detailing the really compelling, perfectly understandable reasons Hunter ended up on the board of a Ukrainian energy giant while I'm at it, shall I?

 

[NSWCROW]

Anyway Abbott hasnt got a leg to stand on

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Aha...so what you're really insisting on is an article critical of Biden on these issues, from a left-wing media source?

Nearly broke my nose snorting!

I'll post an article from a left-wing media source detailing the really compelling, perfectly understandable reasons Hunter ended up on the board of a Ukrainian energy giant while I'm at it, shall I?

And there it is ... but, but HUNTER'S LAPTOP!!!

Just LOL. Snort away.

It's hilarious that you're so willing to believe the cooker interpretation. Any credible source making the "collusion" or "cahoots" connection will do me. Doesn't need to be left wing, just credible. In your own time.

 

[EagleMan87]

That's a thesis length post, but at the core, it's simply about more equitable wealth distribution, a sustainable environment for our children, and far more global cooperation instead of competition and war.

But none of those things will happen under Trump.

Unless, you're banking on a complete collapse and rebuilding of the political system over there?

 

[Rayzorwire]

And there it is ... but, but HUNTER'S LAPTOP!!!

Who mentioned a laptop?

Just mention Hunter and it's like flipping an self-defensive reflex switch with some people..."HUNTER'S LAPTOP!!!"

I would have thought, if the major US news outlets which skew Democrat (using that qualification because there is no actual left-wing in the US) wanted to deal with actual, real life events any year soon, we'd at least have some explanation of how a bloke with substance abuse problems and absolutely zero relevant skills or qualifications, ended up getting paid a squillion to be on the board of a Ukrainian corporation.

But here we are.

Fact is, the US legacy media lansdscape has become so utterly polarised, things that are unquestionable facts on either side of the political divide, quite often go simply unreported due to blatantly corrupt bias, so the only possible way to find the actual truth, is to read both sides as far and wide and independently as you can.

Which I do.

It's hilarious that you're so willing to believe the cooker interpretation. Any credible source making the "collusion" or "cahoots" connection will do me. Doesn't need to be left wing, just credible. In your own time.

Oh, a game of 'please approve my sources', so we can continue this constructive episode?

What fun!

If you want to start arguing against the substance instead of the source anytime soon, feel free.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Who mentioned a laptop?

Just mention Hunter and it's like flipping an self-defensive reflex switch with some people..."HUNTER'S LAPTOP!!!"

I would have thought, if the major US news outlets which skew Democrat (using that qualification because there is no actual left-wing in the US) wanted to deal with actual, real life events any year soon, we'd at least have some explanation of how a bloke with substance abuse problems and absolutely zero relevant skills or qualifications, ended up getting paid a squillion to be on the board of a Ukrainian corporation.

But here we are.

Fact is, the US legacy media lansdscape has become so utterly polarised, things that are unquestionable facts on either side of the political divide, quite often go simply unreported due to blatantly corrupt bias, so the only possible way to find the actual truth, is to read both sides as far and wide and independently as you can.

Which I do.




Oh, a game of 'please approve my sources', so we can continue this constructive episode?

What fun!

If you want to start arguing against the substance instead of the source anytime soon, feel free.

Wow, lots of words.

I agree with you on one thing, the US legacy media landscape has indeed become so utterly polarised. Reading far and wide is a good way to get some balance. But do you genuinely believe that the author who has this body of work is providing unbiased commentary? Come on. She's a cooker. If Jack Smith wasn't so busy, he'd be taking out a restraining order on her.

 

[Rayzorwire]

But none of those things will happen under Trump.

Couldn't agree more.

More a case of him being perhaps the least worst placeholder, until a better prospect appears.

Honestly, I think maybe 60% of RFK's policies would actually be good for the average US citizen, so that in itself stakes out some pretty good electoral ground for anyone wanting to modify Democrat policy in a manner that can win elections the right way.

Unless, you're banking on a complete collapse and rebuilding of the political system over there?

If I had a crystal ball and knew it all ended well compared to the possible alternatives, that's be something to hope for.

Hard to see the US collapsing as not cataclysmic on a whole bunch of levels.

 

[Rayzorwire]

But do you genuinely believe that the author who has this body of work is providing unbiased commentary? Come on. She's a cooker.

She's biased, they're all biased to some degree, with very few I'd bother to argue an exception for.

Are you telling me it's not biased to simply never mention that Hunter being on that board stinks to high heaven of vice-presidential corruption?

I get in hindsight that you assumed I endorse her commentary entirely, but I really don't know why you'd make that assumption?

To me, it was just an article containing a few relevant, factual events that are important to keep an eye on, surrounded by commentary I mostly take as just that.

If I thought the commentary was important in any relevant way, I would have quoted it.

 

[Bloods86]

I would have thought, if the major US news outlets which skew Democrat (using that qualification because there is no actual left-wing in the US) wanted to deal with actual, real life events any year soon, we'd at least have some explanation of how a bloke with substance abuse problems and absolutely zero relevant skills or qualifications, ended up getting paid a squillion to be on the board of a Ukrainian corporation.

I've not looked into Hunter's career prior to the positions that have been well publicised. I don't really know what value he brought to the positions, including a board position with Amtrak, courtesy of GWB in his 2nd term.

I mostly just assume it's cronyism, name recognition and others hoping to secure favour with powerful people. He probably greased the wheel and led people to believe he would be more valuable than maybe he was.

This doesn't however prove or even indicate Joe Biden is corrupt*, and acted on behalf of his son.

*Well, no more than most US politicians, which isn't a high bar in an ideal world.

Still, I'd take Biden as a human being and on policy, streets ahead of the looming alternative. A flawed democracy is better than anti democracy.

 

[EagleMan87]

Couldn't agree more.

More a case of him being perhaps the least worst placeholder, until a better prospect appears.

Do you really think that better prospect will be able to be voted in after another four years of Trump?

 

[LuvtheKangas]

She's biased, they're all biased to some degree, with very few I'd bother to argue an exception for.

Are you telling me it's not biased to simply never mention that Hunter being on that board stinks to high heaven of vice-presidential corruption?

I get in hindsight that you assumed I endorse her commentary entirely, but I really don't know why you'd make that assumption?

To me, it was just an article containing a few relevant, factual events that are important to keep an eye on, surrounded by commentary I mostly take as just that.

If I thought the commentary was important in any relevant way, I would have quoted it.

Well, quoting the article suggests that you thought it was important ... reasonable to assume you endorsed it, I would have thought.

On Hunter, yes, that appointment stinks and it does look like it could have been corruption. I have no problem acknowledging that. Part of the swamp that Trump said he would drain, but then he added so much to it that it's now the size of the Three Gorges Dam. A dodgy board appointment pales against what Trump's family took out of him being president. So yeah, mention it / condemn it by all means, but perhaps put it in perspective.

 

[geoffjennings79]

For all the dems faults, I’d still be pragmatic.

Not much of a choice, but with Tromp as the alternative, it's the only choice. ☹

 

[Rayzorwire]

I've not looked into Hunter's career prior to the positions that have been well publicised. I don't really know what value he brought to the positions, including a board position with Amtrak, courtesy of GWB in his 2nd term.

I mostly just assume it's cronyism, name recognition and others hoping to secure favour with powerful people. He probably greased the wheel and led people to believe he would be more valuable than maybe he was.

This doesn't however prove or even indicate Joe Biden is corrupt*, and acted on behalf of his son.

*Well, no more than most US politicians, which isn't a high bar in an ideal world.

We used to live in a democracy where a perfectly reasonably performing, relatively low-profile government minister resigned, voluntarily, because he brought a TV back into the country and didn't pay the license fee.

'Unacceptable corruption' was the public perception - seeya later, mate.

Those days had a lot going for them.

But with the Hunter thing, it's part of a very ugly pattern behind everything Biden does and has done, IMO.

Blatant nepotism, cronyism and corruption on the kind of levels a deep dive into his past reveals, shouldn't be waved away as acceptable, IMO.