Play Nice 47th President of the United States: Donald Trump - Part 20: Here we go again!

[Gethelred]

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USA - 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

Continued from Part 1 - https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2024-us-presidential-election-trump-vs-harris.1383317/

www.bigfooty.com

USA - Kamala Harris Concedes. God Help America

www.bigfooty.com

< - Trump 19 is back there.

 

[zumahawk]

eto be fair, Obama has some rumours surrounding him that i dont care to share because i don't believe it matters in politics.....
I look at what they do and not their personal life as much.
I thought Obama was going to be the greatest president ever and Trump the worst.

Obama was the best of my lifetime. Flawed but still the cream of the crop. And yes Trump is easily the worst. Not even close, just ask anybody from his inner circle.

 

[Blue1980]

There's a lot of reasons why the Democrats lost the election and it will take years to go over them all but a lot of people here are also just repeating right wing talking points without any supporting evidence. Like, they were only targeting the wealthy (her actual policies included an increase in the minimum wage, increase in Medicare and improving access to Obamacare... incremental change, but then again, this is America). Or the Democrats were too involved in culture wars (can anyone point to a policy on pronouns or when Harris even mentioned trans people). Pointing out Trump is misogynistic isn't identity politics (grab em by the pussy) likewise pointing out that he is racist (immigrants are eating the dogs), it's just facts.

My favourite is she was a terrible candidate. Why? Because she was. There's rarely a reason attached, most people on here don't know her policies, just they have been told she's a terrible candidate.

The campaign obviously didn't work, there's a greater study needed into the cult-like devotion from the 'family values' party to a convicted felon who has cheated on his wives and paid off a pr0n star, as well as the role of the media in this. But it'd be nice if people critiqued the Democrats on what they actually did and not what they have been told they did.

I mean I think with the economic situation and it’s 20-20 hindsight the incumbent party was probably toast regardless.

Switching from Biden stopped an even worse result, a bit like Gillard back to Rudd in 2013 here.

Thing is it needed to happen way earlier, I can imagine a world where Walz wins a proper primary where they could of given it a bit more of a shake, but still don’t think they’d have won.

They need a proper narrative/message that is coherent, stop trying to outflank the republicans on the border, being war hawks, crime etc. Unless you have a dire economic situation like 2020, people don’t want to vote for diet republican, they want the real thing.

Dems lost 15 or so million votes from last time, I think they had lots of good policies but no cohesive message. Now I follow this shit day to day so think how can anyone look at the 2 parties polices and vote GOP, if you’re a member of the middle or working class. I don’t think the Dems do enough though, and their messaging sucks.

Thing is most of us here, including those who support trump are way higher information people on politics than most, we are the minority, whether that’s here in Australia or in the US.

I have no real hope that the Dems will learn any proper lesson from this, and will probably try and stage manage a primary to some anointed one for 2028. Assuming/hoping there is still a proper election then, they may get some sort of protest vote against whatever random shit Trump and co get up to. I expect they can only win off a protest vote though and as per usual not give anyone any tangible message/narrative of why anyone should vote for them.

 

[JackOutback]

This is true.

But millions of others thought the same of Harris, for many reasons, one being that she has continued to fully support Israel's genocide in Gaza, She even wheeled in a decrepit Bill Clinton, who gave a speech justifying the genocide which was just as murderous and bloodthirsty as anything Trump has ever said.

Millions hated Harris because she continued to claim that the US economy was prospering, while their lives were being devastated by a cost of living crisis and the ongoing suppression of wages by the trade union apparatus, in alliance with the Biden administration.

Hundreds of thousands of rail workers will hate Biden for his intervention to illegalise their strike and force upon them a deal which will intensify their cost of living crisis, and address none of their grievances regarding conditions.

They will also hate Biden for calling them "garbage". They will hate Harris for teaming up with despised war criminals such as Dick Cheney and his war crazy daughter, and George Bush.

There were just so many reasons for the working class to despise Harris and see her as no genuine alternative to Trump.

Trump at least acknowledged the economic suffering of poor and middle America. This inspired the false hope among millions that maybe Trump would look after their economic situation more than Harris, because it was clear that Harris had no intention to do so.

If you hate Harris for cosying up to war criminals, wait until you see who Trump is chummy with.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

My point is I await MAGA to treat any scandal involving a Democrat in the same flippant, ignorant way in which they do with Trump's many scandals.

Your point is null because they have a completely different position of leadership…..populist leaders and establishment leaders appeal very very very differently to the population. I’m not condoning his previous issues, but trying to hold trump supporters ransom like this completely disregards that you are comparing apples with lamb chops.

 

[Episode IV]

This sounds like just the tonic for Donnie to read and take your advice-surely he’s guilty of all the failings you have listed.

He is, yes. He's very, very good at the game.
Did I not say already he's a symptom, not the cause?

 

[zumahawk]

This is true.

But millions of others thought the same of Harris, for many reasons, one being that she has continued to fully support Israel's genocide in Gaza, She even wheeled in a decrepit Bill Clinton, who gave a speech justifying the genocide which was just as murderous and bloodthirsty as anything Trump has ever said.

Millions hated Harris because she continued to claim that the US economy was prospering, while their lives were being devastated by a cost of living crisis and the ongoing suppression of wages by the trade union apparatus, in alliance with the Biden administration.

Hundreds of thousands of rail workers will hate Biden for his intervention to illegalise their strike and force upon them a deal which will intensify their cost of living crisis, and address none of their grievances regarding conditions.

They will also hate Biden for calling them "garbage". They will hate Harris for teaming up with despised war criminals such as Dick Cheney and his war crazy daughter, and George Bush.

There were just so many reasons for the working class to despise Harris and see her as no genuine alternative to Trump.

Trump at least acknowledged the economic suffering of poor and middle America. This inspired the false hope among millions that maybe Trump would look after their economic situation more than Harris, because it was clear that Harris had no intention to do so.

I agree with some of the Harris stuff.

Anyone thinking a man like Trump is going to fix their problems needs to re-educate themselves.

 

[Blue1980]

In simple terms - the election was people having a say on the economy for the past 4 years, compounded by Joe Biden quite selfishly not handing on when he should. She never had a chance with such a short runway. Before anyone arcs up about the economy, its not about where unemployment landed or where interest rates dropped, its the journey through inflationary times that is the issue.

Joe needs to take a lot of responsibility for this (but won't). In true Dem tradition, it will be complaining about their opponent and the voters as opposed to understanding why.

Hindsight is 20/20 but if they had an open primary, I think no chance she’d have won.

She did as well as she could, she’s clearly smart and well read and performs well when pre prepared but no ability to go off the cuff and appear as anything more than a standard politician. That’s what she represented, status quo (not the band)

 

[zumahawk]

Your point is null because they have a completely different position of leadership…..populist leaders and establishment leaders appeal very very very differently to the population. I’m not condoning his previous issues, but trying to hold trump supporters ransom like this completely disregards that you are comparing apples with lamb chops.

Just saying: character should matter when voting and does to me. You do make a good point though.

 

[Blue1980]

The American public isn't educated enough to talk about the economy. The cost of living crisis hit globally, the US response to it was one of the better ones, job creation and infrastructure are positive aspects of the recovery, Trump's tariffs are likely going to exacerbate the issue. Yes, there is a two-speed economy in effect, but I don't think Biden can take the blame for this, the issue was with the campaign, they needed to highlight the positive elements of the economy and how new policies will help finish the job.

Where Biden can take the blame is not bowing out early enough. He should have called at the mid point that he was going to be a one-term president. This would have allowed either a proper primary or for Harris to step out of the lame duck VP role and actually take on some roles that would give her a public profile.

That’s why the Dems need someone who is charismatic and able to talk in simple terms, they don’t talk on the level of the electorate. If it’s often vibes based for many, their vibes are off.

 

[Blue1980]

LMAO.. this election was about reproductive rights.. ask this Political analyst

Yeah I know he sucks, he just says this shit to get attention.

 

[zumahawk]

Hindsight is 20/20 but if they had an open primary, I think no chance she’d have won.

She did as well as she could, she’s clearly smart and well read and performs well when pre prepared but no ability to go off the cuff and appear as anything more than a standard politician. That’s what she represented, status quo (not the band)

Clearly qualified and competent and had a positive outlook for the country. That's not up for debate. They should of replaced Biden months earlier.

 

[IlovethePies]

If you hate Harris for cosying up to war criminals, wait until you see who Trump is chummy with.

I was hoping that it woud be clear that this comment is not a valid answer.

Of course I know Trump is a monstrous criminal who will have no hesitation to cuddling up with war criminals.

But the issue is that in the view of the US working class, this is not enough to differentiate him from Harris, who is doing the same thing.

Fundamentally the Democrats lost this election because they had nothing to offer to alleviate the economic distress of millions of workers, and allowed Trump to exploit social grievances.

Millons of workers voted for Trump because they are desperate for change, and hope that Trump will produce a change which can improve their situation.

But they will find out very soon after Trump takes office that they were horribly mistaken, and then they will be propelled into outrage and mass resistance against Trump and his extreme right wing agenda.

 

[zumahawk]

I was hoping that it woud be clear that this comment is not a valid answer.

Of course I know Trump is a monstrous criminal who will have no hesitation to cuddling up with war criminals.

But the issue is that in the view of the US working class, this is not enough to differentiate him from Harris, who is doing the same thing.

Fundamentally the Democrats lost this election because they had nothing to offer to alleviate the economic distress of millions of workers, and allowed Trump to exploit social grievances.

Millons of workers voted for Trump because they are desperate for change, and hope that Trump will produce a change which can improve their situation.

But they will find out very soon after Trump takes office that they were horribly mistaken, and then they will be propelled into outrage and mass resistance against Trump and his extreme right wing agenda.

What change do the workers think Trump will bring?

 

[Blue1980]

You've evaded the question completely. The was no wiping of planets in 1925.

And for the record, I've only ever watched CNN in foreign hotel rooms when there's no other English speaking channels.

If the Democrat party go in a direction CNN/MSNBC don’t like, that is when you will know they are on the right track.

Both corporate shills who just want the Dems to be neocon Republican Party 2.0, or civility MAGA.

 

[troybe]

While you’re at it, make Dr Phil Surgeon-General

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

That’s why the Dems need someone who is charismatic and able to talk in simple terms, they don’t talk on the level of the electorate. If it’s often vibes based for many, their vibes are off.

They need to appeal to the working class not the establishment elites. Voters see through their faux outrage.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

If the Democrat party go in a direction CNN/MSNBC don’t like, that is when you will know they are on the right track.

Both corporate shills who just want the Dems to be neocon Republican Party 2.0, or civility MAGA.

100% bro.

They way Kamala’s campaign was hailed by the left media for the billions she raised is exactly the problem.

 

[IlovethePies]

I agree with some of the Harris stuff.

Anyone thinking a man like Trump is going to fix their problems needs to re-educate themselves.

But thinking Harris would have led to a viable future for them was just as insane.

The US working class was faced with this choice: death from Harris by a (slower, perhaps, asphyxiation) , or death from Trump by a machine gun.

They chose Trump for the moment because the man with the machine gun at least recognised their suffering, and that was enough to conceal the presence of the machine gun. For the moment. This won't last though. The machine gun will soon become visible and obvious.

 

[Satan]

View attachment 2161117

While you’re at it, make Dr Phil Surgeon-General

Steve miller , immigration
Alex jones fcc

 

[Episode IV]

For the record, I have not used the word rape or convicted, he was found liable in a civil court for sexual assault and defamation and his counterclaim was dismissed.

There are significant differences between the criminal and civil courts in the USA with regard to the burden of proof.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

What change do the workers think Trump will bring?

Not more elitist fake donor fawning shit.
Speak to the average Joe about the issues he/she cares about not the outrage fanatic shit.

 

[IlovethePies]

They need to appeal to the working class not the establishment elites. Voters see through their faux outrage.

That's true, but they cannot appeal to the working class because the Democrats are a party of Wall St and the military/intelligence apparatus.

The secret of Trump's victory lies precisely in the fact that he was able to exploit the social grievances of the working class, which has been smashed under the Democrats by real wage cuts and exploding inflation.

However, Trump's appeal to the working class was a total fraud. The program of Trump is a vicious and brutal counterrevolution against the workign class. Workers will be shocked by the extreme, laissez faire policies that Trump and his entourage intend to impose, through police state repression.

The USA is heading for extreme social conflict between the two major social classes: the working class, and the capitalist class (represented by both the Republicans AND the Democrats).

 

[zumahawk]

But thinking Harris would have led to a viable future for them was just as insane.

The US working class was faced with this choice: death from Harris by a (slower, perhaps, asphyxiation) , or death from Trump by a machine gun.

They chose Trump for the moment because the man with the machine gun at least recognised their suffering, and that was enough to conceal the presence of the machine gun. For the moment. This won't last though. The machine gun will soon become visible and obvious.

Harris, although nowhere near perfect was the one to choose due to character among other things. Trump has no idea how to run anything that includes an economy and has never thought of anyone but himself so their suffering will not end.

The capitalist system, lack of decent healthcare etc is imo to blame. The gap between the uber wealthy and those poor souls working 3 jobs in the rust belt will only grow larger.

 

[QuietB]

not convicted of rape, and TBF, i woudnt put it past him to use his power and influance to bed a woman, but rape is a strong word and i dont believe he did. Heaps of people have settled out of court to save face and trouble, doesnt mean they r*ped someone.

You have no values

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/07/19/trump-carroll-judge-rape/

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

That's true, but they cannot appeal to the working class because the Democrats are a party of Wall St and the military/intelligence apparatus.

The secret of Trump's victory lies precisely in the fact that he was able to exploit the social grievances of the working class, which has been smashed under the Democrats by real wage cuts and exploding inflation.

However, Trump's appeal to the working class was a total fraud. The program of Trump is a vicious and brutal counterrevolution against the workign class. Workers will be shocked by the extreme, laissez faire policies that Trump and his entourage intend to impose, through police state repression.

The USA is heading for extreme social conflict between the two major social classes: the working class, and the capitalist class (represented by both the Republicans AND the Democrats).

When you have been punched in the face by person A enough times, and the only choice you have is to risk being punched by person B…. You will take that risk.