Play Nice 47th President of the United States: Donald Trump - Part 20: If you want Capitalism, you got it

[Gethelred]

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USA - 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

Continued from Part 1 - https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2024-us-presidential-election-trump-vs-harris.1383317/

www.bigfooty.com

USA - Kamala Harris Concedes. God Help America

www.bigfooty.com

< - Trump 19 is back there.

 

[Seeds]

Look, the point I am making above all is that there is no meaningful difference between teh program of Harris and the program of Trump.

Every time I criticise Harris, you say"Trump is just as bad".

Yes, true. They are fundamentally the same, because they both represent the same class interests, those of a miniscule corporate and financial oligarchy.

Therefore, it is a completely bankrupt perspective to try to oppose Trump by hoping for Harris to win.

A radical alternative is necessary to break the Gordian knot.

But they arent the same on many things.

Harris aint deporting 20 million immigrants.

Harris aint giving a chunk of ukraine to russia and possibly withdrawing from Nato.

Harris aint employing 20 percent universal tariffs on everyone.

Harris would re-install roe vs wade if she could and wont impose a national abortion ban.

Harris would push more against israel after the election then trump.

Harris is increasing corporate tax rates while trump is reducing them.

Harris aint employing an anti vaxer to lead health policy.

Harris is going to support education and welfare funding more then trump who will enable musk to gut spending in these areas

 

[Seeds]

What has the death penalty got to do with the poor??

The overwhelming majority of the victims of the death penalty in the us are the impoverished, the mentally and intellectually disabled, the socially deprived....

You have confused a miniscule subset of a population with being representative of that population.

its like assuming all men rule the world or all men are rapists when its only a minuscule subset of them that do while most men are poor and not rapists like everyone else.

 

[IlovethePies]

But they arent the same on many things.

Harris aint deporting 20 million immigrants.

Harris aint giving a chunk of ukraine to russia and possibly withdrawing from Nato.

Harris aint employing 20 percent universal tariffs on everyone.

Harris would re-install roe vs wade if she could and wont impose a national abortion ban.

Harris would push more against israel after the election then trump.

Harris is increasing corporate tax rates while trump is reducing them.

Harris aint employing an anti vaxer to lead health policy.

Harris is going to support education and welfare funding more then trump who will enable musk to gut spending in these areas

1) Harris has adopted all of Trump's border policies, except the deportation of 20 million immigrants. In this respect, Trump will incite civil war more rapidly than Harris.

2) The Biden Administration instigated and have every step of the way escalated the war in Ukraine, with the aim of overthrowing the Putin regime and dismembering Russia. Harris would have absolutely intensified the war in Ukraine, thereby bringing the world to the brink of nuclear war. So in this respect, she is even right of Trump.

3) This ist true, she is not applying tariffs (immediately). But she is escalating the genocide in Gaza, the target being Iran, so that the US and its Israeli proxy can dominate the Middle East and choke off oil supplies to China (its main competitor).

4) Harris would not push more against Israel than Trump. Both are equal supporters of genocide.

5) Harris might or might not defend abortion rights. But one thing is for sure, she won't be giving working class women any assistance in paying for one.

6) Harris is NOT increasing corporate tax rates. She is all about defending the US dollar, and corporate profits are one of her existential concerns.

7) Harris might not be installing an anti-vaxxer to lead health policy, but together with Biden she has presided over the dismantling of all public health measures against COVID, the dismantling of all monitoring and tracing of infection, and the deaths of over 800 000 Americans from COVID, as well as the disabling of tens of millions from long COVID

8) Harris is NOT going to support education and welfare. Under the Biden administration, plans are being prepared to retrench about 300 000 teachers US wide.

Harris and the Democrats are committed to ove ra trillion dollars in US military spending over the next period. Do you really think that she was going to support social welfare and education as well??

 

[IlovethePies]

You have confused a miniscule subset of a population with being representative of that population.

its like assuming all men rule the world or all men are rapists when its only a minuscule subset of them that do while most men are poor and not rapists like everyone else.

You need to do more research on the death penalty.

Maybe go to the death penalty thread here on BF.

 

[hippyhippy]

Harris has adopted all of Trump's border policies, except the deportation of 20 million immigrants. In this respect, Trump will incite civil war more rapidly than Harris.

While it is true that the democrats did a uturn on their border policies... It was after letting in a record number of illegals into the country and they know the open border policy was not a winning policy.

And Trump wouldn't allow a war with Russia. He is anti war. The war really started under Obama.

 

[Blue1980]

1) Harris has adopted all of Trump's border policies, except the deportation of 20 million immigrants. In this respect, Trump will incite civil war more rapidly than Harris.

2) The Biden Administration instigated and have every step of the way escalated the war in Ukraine, with the aim of overthrowing the Putin regime and dismembering Russia. Harris would have absolutely intensified the war in Ukraine, thereby bringing the world to the brink of nuclear war. So in this respect, she is even right of Trump.

3) This ist true, she is not applying tariffs (immediately). But she is escalating the genocide in Gaza, the target being Iran, so that the US and its Israeli proxy can dominate the Middle East and choke off oil supplies to China (its main competitor).

4) Harris would not push more against Israel than Trump. Both are equal supporters of genocide.

5) Harris might or might not defend abortion rights. But one thing is for sure, she won't be giving working class women any assistance in paying for one.

6) Harris is NOT increasing corporate tax rates. She is all about defending the US dollar, and corporate profits are one of her existential concerns.

7) Harris might not be installing an anti-vaxxer to lead health policy, but together with Biden she has presided over the dismantling of all public health measures against COVID, the dismantling of all monitoring and tracing of infection, and the deaths of over 800 000 Americans from COVID, as well as the disabling of tens of millions from long COVID

8) Harris is NOT going to support education and welfare. Under the Biden administration, plans are being prepared to retrench about 300 000 teachers US wide.

Harris and the Democrats are committed to ove ra trillion dollars in US military spending over the next period. Do you really think that she was going to support social welfare and education as well??

Now we are on the Trump as president timeline, what do you think happens from here?

 

[Blue1980]

While it is true that the democrats did a uturn on their border policies... It was after letting in a record number of illegals into the country and they know the open border policy was not a winning policy.

And Trump wouldn't allow a war with Russia. He is anti war. The war really started under Obama.

He isn't anti-war, neither are the dems.

I'd love him to be anti-war, but he isn't.

 

[IlovethePies]

While it is true that the democrats did a uturn on their border policies... It was after letting in a record number of illegals into the country and they know the open border policy was not a winning policy.

And Trump wouldn't allow a war with Russia. He is anti war. The war really started under Obama.

Trump is not anti-war.

He has openly declared that he wants "Israel to finish the job"

While president, he authorised the drone assassination of the Iranian general and major political figure Soleimani:

The murder of Qassem Suleimani and assassination as state policy

In a reckless and criminal act, the Trump administration has effectively declared war on Iran, threatening to drag the whole world into a catastrophic conflict.

www.wsws.org

Trump threatened to obliterate both North Korea and Iran. This is what he tweeted in regard to Iran in 2018:

“SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED, if it “EVER” dared to “THREATEN” Washington “AGAIN.”

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I have answered this on numerous occasions above.

I do think Trump will continue the war in Gaza and ultimately against Iran.

But that is no different from Harris.

Both Harris and Trump are two sides of a poisoned chalice.

You cop a bit of a bollocking for your political stance, but there is something quaintly nostalgic in your position, a throwback to the days when the ballot paper included communist party candidates and when socialism really was about state ownership of major industries and transport. Back in the time when the PMG here trained apprentices and the state government could be blamed for inadequacies in our train system.

Trump always delights in referring to his political opponents as socialist, but it's a term he grossly misuses in reference to them as I doubt that the likes of Biden or Harris have a socialist thought or communist ideal in their heads.

Do you really believe socialism or communism are ever going to again have appeal to the masses in a country like the USA? Or is it a subject for another thread?

 

[hippyhippy]

Trump is not anti-war.

He has openly declared that he wants "Israel to finish the job"

While president, he authorised the drone assassination of the Iranian general and major political figure Soleimani:

The murder of Qassem Suleimani and assassination as state policy

In a reckless and criminal act, the Trump administration has effectively declared war on Iran, threatening to drag the whole world into a catastrophic conflict.

www.wsws.org

Trump threatened to obliterate both North Korea and Iran. This is what he tweeted in regard to Iran in 2018:

“SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED, if it “EVER” dared to “THREATEN” Washington “AGAIN.”

Action speaks loader than words... If they believe you'll blow them up then they won't do anything to you...

And that strike on soleimani worked. Iran didn't do anything back.... Until the democrats were back in power

 

[Blue1980]

You cop a bit of a bollocking for your political stance, but there is something quaintly nostalgic in your position, a throwback to the days when the ballot paper included communist party candidates and when socialism really was about state ownership of major industries and transport. Back in the time when the PMG here trained apprentices and the state government could be blamed for inadequacies in our train system.

Trump always delights in referring to his political opponents as socialist, but it's a term he grossly misuses in reference to them as I doubt that the likes of Biden or Harris have a socialist thought or communist ideal in their heads.

Do you really believe socialism or communism are ever going to again have appeal to the masses in a country like the USA? Or is it a subject for another thread?

The whole system would have to collapse first.

 

[IlovethePies]

Now we are on the Trump as president timeline, what do you think happens from here?

 

[IlovethePies]

The whole system would have to collapse first.

It is in the process of collapsing, we are in the era of the "death agony of capitalism", and it is far advanced.

that is what the election victory of Trump tells us.

 

[Blue1980]

It is in the process of collapsing, we are in the era of the "death agony of capitalism", and it is far advanced.

that is what the election victory of Trump tells us.

How long do you give it?

 

[IlovethePies]

How long do you give it?

I can't predict the future.

However, I will say that the collapse of capitalism is an ongoing proess. It doesn't just happen overnight.

the main issue right now is the development of a revolutionary socialist party in the working class. So that, as the process of collapse continues, and accelerates, there is an international socialist movement already prepared theoretically and practically, to unify the opposition of millions of working people worldwide against this entire bankrupt social system.

 

[Sqotty from office works]

DAY 1
Will appoint his sons and future grandsons presidents for the next 120 years.

DAY 2

Ban all Taylor Swift music

DAY 3

Start the expulsions.

DAY. 4

Issue uniforms to all sect followers.

DAY 5
Drill baby drill

DAY 6
Life in goal for anybody eating a cat,

 

[Cmarsh]

DAY 1
Will appoint his sons and future grandsons presidents for the next 120 years.

DAY 2

Ban all Taylor Swift music

DAY 3

Start the expulsions.

DAY. 4

Issue uniforms to all sect followers.

"Drill baby drill" has to be in there somewhere.

 

[TheSunGod]

The flames arent going to stay within the usa confines. In fact they will be worse elsewhere. Starting with ukraine.

All good. He’s promised to end the war in a day.

 

[TheSunGod]

Trump win ‘spells disaster’ for Aussies
https://www.news.com.au/world/north...y/news-story/c9e258889a0135c1f1cbbc80e3f1b234

 

[TheSunGod]

But they arent the same on many things.

Harris aint deporting 20 million immigrants.

Harris aint giving a chunk of ukraine to russia and possibly withdrawing from Nato.

Harris aint employing 20 percent universal tariffs on everyone.

Harris would re-install roe vs wade if she could and wont impose a national abortion ban.

Harris would push more against israel after the election then trump.

Harris is increasing corporate tax rates while trump is reducing them.

Harris aint employing an anti vaxer to lead health policy.

Harris is going to support education and welfare funding more then trump who will enable musk to gut spending in these areas

I might be boiling it down to simplistic terms but Harris at least shows empathy for people. Trump being the malignant narcissistic sociopath that he is, has no empathy for others. That is concerning to me.

 

[Financialpanther]

Like?

Cholesterol

 

[IlovethePies]

You cop a bit of a bollocking for your political stance, but there is something quaintly nostalgic in your position, a throwback to the days when the ballot paper included communist party candidates and when socialism really was about state ownership of major industries and transport. Back in the time when the PMG here trained apprentices and the state government could be blamed for inadequacies in our train system.

Trump always delights in referring to his political opponents as socialist, but it's a term he grossly misuses in reference to them as I doubt that the likes of Biden or Harris have a socialist thought or communist ideal in their heads.

Do you really believe socialism or communism are ever going to again have appeal to the masses in a country like the USA? Or is it a subject for another thread?

Short answer is yes, socialism will win the interest and the hearts of millions again. But I wont expand here, because as you say it is the topic perhaps of another thread.

 

[Frank Grimes]

In reality this thread should be entitled, not the decline of Trump, but the decline of US democracy.
Why did Trump win?
There are very good reasons, and they are all due to the policies of the Democrats, and their genocide enabling candidate Karmela Harris:

I haven't paid much attention to the policies made regarding Isreal defence. What is the difference? Is it much different than it is currently?

 

[Maggie5]

Democrats are in all sorts. They threw everything they had and couldn’t do it.

No, they just couldn't fight the lies.

Trump no wars during his Presidency (ignoring Gaza and Ukraine aren't not Democrats fault) but plays well.
Deport millions using the military (his followers think illegal migrants have taken their jobs)
Believe they had more spending money during his last Presidency
Finally he really cared about them.
Oh and they didn't like her laugh.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

No, they just couldn't fight the lies.

Trump no wars during his Presidency (ignoring Gaza and Ukraine aren't not Democrats fault) but plays well.
Deport millions using the military (his followers think illegal migrants have taken their jobs)
Believe they had more spending money during his last Presidency
Finally he really cared about them.
Oh and they didn't like her laugh.

I know you will disagree, but there are many in this world sick of having to soft shoe shuffle through life because someone may take offence at a word they utter or an action they take which would have been perfectly acceptable 10-20 years back. For instance, the players from GWS suspended for wearing twin tower costumes or the umpire suspended and made to apologise for turning up at a fancy dress function as Bin Laden. Comedy is becoming a risque business because of the increasingly off limits nature of so many aspects of life that are now deemed likely to cause offence. There are so many taboo areas now, along with groups placed on pedestals who are deemed beyond the comment and certainly criticism of ordinary people.

I hate many of Trump's policies, and his acceptance of the likes of Putin and Netanyahu, along with his violent threats to fellow politicians and minority groups really worry me, but even some of the groups you'd think would be most offended by him seem to have clamoured aboard his bandwagon in this election.

I liked the way Trump wasn't afraid to justifiably niggle China with 'China plague' references. I will never forgive China for what it did to the world via its willingness to capture, torture and kill wild and domestic creatures on a massive scale, without seeing anything callous or inappropriate in its actions. Thanks to their uncivilized attitude toward sourcing food and medicines, covid was foisted on the world and not many had the balls to call them to account for it - except Trump and our own happy clappy chappy but otherwise entirely forgettable PM Morrison. Conversely, we have had Biden and Albanese react to Israel's excesses against Gaza with weasel warning and words that we know are utterly meaningless because they will never be followed up. There is a lack of courage in both leaders to act in a manner which would bring about meaningful change to a worsening situation. Trump at least says what he thinks and gives the impression that he will act on his words if required to do so.

With the likes of Trump emerging as a major player, the western world is experiencing a backlash to its newly discovered moral naval gazing and force feeding of pc value systems. My one positive takeaway from Trump's success is that it's partly built on offering an alternative to the forcing of rigid contemporary values and beliefs on people who want some space to continue to be the selves they have always been content to be.

In so many other respects Trump is an appalling creature with some weird views and an uncomfortably comfortable relationship with several of the world's most unpalatable leaders. Yet he has become a lightning rod for those seeking to divert the modern world from its goodie two shoes inclusivity and moral hand wringing.

The other thing from which Trump has profited is the absurd spending of billions and billions of dollars to prop up a world rendered indolent by the forced closure of society during the covid lockdown years. Inevitably that wastage created the inflation that led to the high living costs that have created the votes required to return Trump to power.

In a sense the world is getting with Trump what its actions and thought processes have eventually led to - a reaction against excessive and obsessive safety and security concerns and stifling of criticism or commentary on so many areas of life. We may be unable to go to a fancy dress party in fancy dress anymore, but it's fine for the likes of Israel to bomb the bejeesus out of a race of people or supermarkets to dishonestly manipulate prices in their favour while pretending to be acting in the best interests of the consumer. The ordinary person feels hopeless to do anything to change what's happening, then along comes a person who seems to speak for their frustration and thumbs his nose at the world.

I may not like the man or his policies, but I can understand why so many people see him as the way out of the mess they see the world and themselves currently enveloped in.