Autopsy AFL 2022 Round 23 - Carlton v Collingwood Sun August 21st 3:20pm EST (MCG)

[Carringbush2010]

I just checked that one and watched Quanyor push Silvagni into him and it somehow being a free against Jack? Is that the blocking call I was meant to see? Probably not the best example to use mate.

Obvs the ump didn't see IQ push SOS, the ump saw sos remove Cameron out of the contest.

Umps miss these all the time.

As for the Ginni one, I think that can be put to bed.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Are you changing your angle now, LL? It wasn't a lock?

If you don't agree that's ok, if the club thinks they have the leaders, that's damning.

We can all see the talent oozing from the list, if you end up in the same situation next year, I wonder what you will say then.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Yep, not trying to stop you, but he has an opinion, and the timeline fit, leaders should be standing up by now.

I agree with him, leadership is lacking and most likely cost you a spot in finals.

Disagree all you like, we can only go on what has happened, you may be right, I may be right, if it happens next year, I wonder what you say then.

 

[doppleganger]

I get what you are saying. But we started off very different ground floors.

Most of our senior players when SOS came on board had very little success.

Plus years of poor drafting meant we had little between the ages of 25-28 that was any good.

Was a mess he walked into.

All the more reason to ensure you bring some in.

Instead he doubled down on youth or trash.

Still hurting the Baggers, as the trash is now gone and so are plenty of the youth that should be mainstays....hence a list that has some great top end talent and then heaps of gaps.

The question always was do you build a list to make the 8 or a list to try for a flag
Collingwood still have some senior players in very good form. We don't.

Again, a list management decision.

By the way, best two Blues on the weekend were Cripps and Doc, two senior players who were pre SOS.

Plus getting the Daicos boys and Quaynor through F/S and academy has been a blessing.

Nic the only really highly rated one

Perhaps having strong leaders down back like Roughead (traded for after 2018), Howe, Mayne (traded for after 2016) has helped IQ and Maynard flourish.

 

[bigm386]

All the more reason to ensure you bring some in.

Instead he doubled down on youth or trash.

Still hurting the Baggers, as the trash is now gone and so are plenty of the youth that should be mainstays....hence a list that has some great top end talent and then heaps of gaps.

Again, a list management decision.

By the way, best two Blues on the weekend were Cripps and Doc, two senior players who were pre SOS.


Nic the only really highly rated one

Perhaps having strong leaders down back like Roughead (traded for after 2018), Howe, Mayne (traded for after 2016) has helped IQ and Maynard flourish.

IMO it would have been lipstick on a pig, our list was an absolute shambles.

Plus I can't see many leaders banging down the door to join a side that was essentially regularly bottom 4-6 for the last 8 or so years.

 

[Chief]

If you don't agree that's ok, if the club thinks they have the leaders, that's damning.

We can all see the talent oozing from the list, if you end up in the same situation next year, I wonder what you will say then.

OK - so it WAS a lock, but for any chance at a win?

We're on the same page.

 

[LoungeLizard]

OK - so it WAS a lock, but for any chance at a win?

We're on the same page.

Whatever Chief.

 

[domus]

This year IS STILL a development year, regardless of where we sit.

We still have a lot of starting 18 who are sub 30, 20 games - it's still very raw and the group is still learning about itself as a whole.

I think Reef Mcinnes is going to be a very good player. Krueger has huge potential. Charlie Dean and McStay will strengthen our talls department. Harvey Harris and Draper have real talent and illness and injury held them back. McCeery, Ginnivan and Nick Daicos will be all be better for having another season under their belts. Add Bobby Hill, a confident, blossoming Ash Johnson who has only just begun his career and a couple of good draft picks and we will be contending again. Murphy is still finding his feet too. I'm excited about the future-especially with Craig McCrae at the helm.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

For it to be a block Ginny had to prevent Saad from getting to another Pies player!!

Ie SOS was pinged for bumping / blocking Cameron, allowing Cripps to mark uncontested.

Ginny didnt block Saad to let Elliott mark uncontested, because Elliott wasnt part of any marking contest.

So you are saying that in a one on one marking contest - ie Ginni v Saad - that the forward is not allowed to use their body to protect primary ball drop?

That is just good forward craft, what coaches train players to do.

You are jumping at shadows.

SoS blocking Cameron so Cripps can mark is shepherding in a marking contest.

Ginni protecting the ball drop in a one on one contest isnt a free against.

Do you honestly not know the rules about blocking/shepherding?
You can only shepherd within 5m of the ball. Ginni clearly started blocking Saad while the ball was still 15-20m away in the air.
You can't shepherd in a marking contest. Ginni might not have been trying to mark the ball, but he prevented (illegally) Saad from making it a contest.

The pictures clearly show Ginni blocking Saad well before the ball is within 5m.
It clearly shows Ginni preventing Saad from marking the ball.
Once the ball hits the deck, I have no problem with Ginni's actions in shepherding Saad out from getting to Elliott, but prior to that it was a text book block.

They get missed and nothing can change the call or overturn the result, but that is 100% a block. It's black and white (pun intended).

 

[LoungeLizard]

Do you honestly not know the rules about blocking/shepherding?
You can only shepherd within 5m of the ball. Ginni clearly started blocking Saad while the ball was still 15-20m away in the air.
You can't shepherd in a marking contest. Ginni might not have been trying to mark the ball, but he prevented (illegally) Saad from making it a contest.

The pictures clearly show Ginni blocking Saad well before the ball is within 5m.
It clearly shows Ginni preventing Saad from marking the ball.
Once the ball hits the deck, I have no problem with Ginni's actions in shepherding Saad out from getting to Elliott, but prior to that it was a text book block.

They get missed and nothing can change the call or overturn the result, but that is 100% a block. It's black and white (pun intended).

Still crying?

So great to see, makes me very happy, umpires were against you, the gods were against you and Collingwood won by a measly point.

What a weekend it was.

 

[Skull Face]

To be brutally honest as a Freo fan, I am happy we got 5th. Regardless who got 8th between dogs and blues, I am nervous with this Elim final

We have travelled poorly this year only beat gws and west coast away, losses to you, Brisbane, gc, Adelaide.

We had worked you out for.the return game but still expected a loss going over there. Fair chance to make a preliminary for you guys as well

 

[PieLebo87]

I was texting my friend when we were 11 up, predicting Pies would still win by a few points. You're making it out to be much more of a lock than it actually was.

I knew you were a closet Pies supporter. Love how you never lost faith in the Pies doing what they always do.

 

[Freomaniac]

We have travelled poorly this year only beat gws and west coast away, losses to you, Brisbane, gc, Adelaide.

We had worked you out for.the return game but still expected a loss going over there. Fair chance to make a preliminary for you guys as well

I don't think Carlton travelled poorly. Just lost one close game too many.

Carlton beat Freo easily in docklands despite having some defenders out.

I would of been scared with the talls Carlton had up forward with Curnow, McKay and Cotterill.

Surprised Cotterill is only 185 cm. He looks like he is 190-193 cm. Solidly built for a medium tall.

I would be delighted if we make a preliminary final.

 

[Ginnieboy]

We have to worry about why we constantly put ourselves in these positions against the top teams and below average teams like Carlton and North Melbourne, I’m hoping finals will make us play 4 qtrs, and we better because we aren’t playing the likes of Carlton from now on.

 

[domus]

We have to worry about why we constantly put ourselves in these positions against the top teams and below average teams like Carlton and North Melbourne, I’m hoping finals will make us play 4 qtrs, and we better because we aren’t playing the likes of Carlton from now on.

Yet North beat Richmond and Melbourne fell over the line in the last seconds against Carlton. The Blues smashed Freo. I would not rate a side who had been in the eight all year below average.

 

[Ginnieboy]

Yet North beat Richmond and Melbourne fell over the line in the last seconds against Carlton. The Blues smashed Freo. I would not rate a side who had been in the eight all year below average.

I would, because now they’re out of the 8, it’s a real shame for them and their supporters too.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Look I'm not going to really go more into this but it's getting annoying seeing people act like the ball was 20 meters away and that it's no where near being considered a marking contest.

Well over his head? The ball is literally right there. It's less then a meter away.

View attachment 1488053

This is when Ginnivan started shepherding him

View attachment 1488054

I'd say considering Saad is capable of running 1 meter in 3 seconds that the block stopped him from marking the ball. If Ginnivan wasn't blocking him it's an easy chest mark. So in my eyes, it's a marking contest and the debate should be around it not being a block and instead just him using his body to protect the drop of the ball. If you say he's deliberately shepherding, well then it's a free kick.

Umps miss initial body work all the time, and see the obvious of SoS taking out Cameron = blocking free.

But yes, continue to think Ginni blocked Saad and was deserving of a blocking free.

Call it a block, call it an illegal shepherd, call it prohibited contact. Call it whatever you want. It was a missed free. It happens, but let's not pretend it was legal.

Let's start by looking at rule 18.1.1(c) which is about the spirit and intention of awarding free kicks.
A free kick shall be awarded to... provide a player, who makes obtaining possession of the football their sole objective, every opportunity to obtain possession. (hint: Saad's sole intention is to gain possession - Ginnivan's sole intention is to prevent Saad from gaining possession. There are distinctly different things).

Then, you can move on to 18.3.2(e) about prohibited contact.
A field umpire shall award a free kick against a player when that player makes any of the following prohibited contact... executes an illegal shepherd.

Finally, for clarification on what is deemed a legal shepherd, I direct you to 18.3.3 - permitted contact.
A player may use their hip, shoulder, chest, arms or open hands provided that the football is no more than five metres away from the player and the player does not make prohibited contact as per law 18.3.2 above.

And that doesn't even need to take into consideration whether or not it was a marking contest. The simple fact that Ginni didn't make his sole objective to win the ball and made prohibited contact by executing an illegal shepherd more than 5m off the ball, makes it a free kick.

https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2022/03/28/6d92ed7c-efc2-44dc-86bc-9fa1d9b338ad/2022-Laws-of-the-Game-Booklet.pdf

 

[PieLebo87]

Call it a block, call it an illegal shepherd, call it prohibited contact. Call it whatever you want. It was a missed free. It happens, but let's not pretend it was legal.
View attachment 1488369
Let's start by looking at rule 18.1.1(c) which is about the spirit and intention of awarding free kicks.
A free kick shall be awarded to... provide a player, who makes obtaining possession of the football their sole objective, every opportunity to obtain possession. (hint: Saad's sole intention is to gain possession - Ginnivan's sole intention is to prevent Saad from gaining possession. There are distinctly different things).

Then, you can move on to 18.3.2(e) about prohibited contact.
A field umpire shall award a free kick against a player when that player makes any of the following prohibited contact... executes an illegal shepherd.

Finally, for clarification on what is deemed a legal shepherd, I direct you to 18.3.3 - permitted contact.
A player may use their hip, shoulder, chest, arms or open hands provided that the football is no more than five metres away from the player and the player does not make prohibited contact as per law 18.3.2 above.

And that doesn't even need to take into consideration whether or not it was a marking contest. The simple fact that Ginni didn't make his sole objective to win the ball and made prohibited contact by executing an illegal shepherd more than 5m off the ball, makes it a free kick.

https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2022/03/28/6d92ed7c-efc2-44dc-86bc-9fa1d9b338ad/2022-Laws-of-the-Game-Booklet.pdf

Did you see Stengle’s goal against WCE by any chance?

If you asked that umpire about the above, he’d tell you that was about 2 metres only.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Call it a block, call it an illegal shepherd, call it prohibited contact. Call it whatever you want. It was a missed free. It happens, but let's not pretend it was legal.
View attachment 1488369
Let's start by looking at rule 18.1.1(c) which is about the spirit and intention of awarding free kicks.
A free kick shall be awarded to... provide a player, who makes obtaining possession of the football their sole objective, every opportunity to obtain possession. (hint: Saad's sole intention is to gain possession - Ginnivan's sole intention is to prevent Saad from gaining possession. There are distinctly different things).

Then, you can move on to 18.3.2(e) about prohibited contact.
A field umpire shall award a free kick against a player when that player makes any of the following prohibited contact... executes an illegal shepherd.

Finally, for clarification on what is deemed a legal shepherd, I direct you to 18.3.3 - permitted contact.
A player may use their hip, shoulder, chest, arms or open hands provided that the football is no more than five metres away from the player and the player does not make prohibited contact as per law 18.3.2 above.

And that doesn't even need to take into consideration whether or not it was a marking contest. The simple fact that Ginni didn't make his sole objective to win the ball and made prohibited contact by executing an illegal shepherd more than 5m off the ball, makes it a free kick.

https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2022/03/28/6d92ed7c-efc2-44dc-86bc-9fa1d9b338ad/2022-Laws-of-the-Game-Booklet.pdf

This is the moment that Carlton left the 8, welcome to the 8 Bulldogs.

All year, right up to this, damn that's close.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Did you see Stengle’s goal against WCE by any chance?

If you asked that umpire about the above, he’d tell you that was about 2 metres only.

That was shocking. Rioli ran too far on his, but Stengle ran an extra 5-10m.
If you're going to have rules where marks, runs and bounces are measured for legality, you can't just let umpires use their best guess. It wouldn't be that hard to have markings on the ground. At least something that gives them a rough idea and prevents missing the bleeding obvious.
Part of the problem of not having a standardised playing field.

 

[gouki88]

That was shocking. Rioli ran too far on his, but Stengle ran an extra 5-10m.
If you're going to have rules where marks, runs and bounces are measured for legality, you can't just let umpires use their best guess. It wouldn't be that hard to have markings on the ground. At least something that gives them a rough idea and prevents missing the bleeding obvious.
Part of the problem of not having a standardised playing field.

It kills me that we don't have markings to note distance. So many cheap goals generated from 8-10m dinky kicks inside 50 that are massively costly.

 

[BringouttheGimp]

Carlton ended up 9th for a reason man.. it's not because of a bad umpiring decision.. a bad decision made by a player with 1 minute to go.. every facet of the club = 9th. Reputation.. board members.. dressing room.. coaching staff.. recruitment.. a coach that can absorb shit from the media.. the bootstuder.. players being independent and confident.. equipment and ethics in the gym mate.. like when I'm in beast mode at the gym and that.. I don't like people talking to me and that mate.. get me a towel or whatever.. wipe my brow.. that's all right and that.. then there's fitness coaches.. nutritionists.. chefs.. was watching Paul Ince this morning pre game Liverpool v Manchester United.. he reckons one of the reasons he was so super fit.. fittest he's ever been when he was playing for Inter or whatever was cause of the food and that mate.. I'm just throwing random shit out here right.. keep going on about it.. but that's what it's all about.. that's why you ended up 9th.. not cause of a bad umpiring decision or a bad decision made by a player with 1 minute to go.. it's because of all this other shit.. it's a togetherness in all facets of the club that brings success mate.. enjoying yourselves.. being good at what you do.. that's it mate.. forget about it mate.

 

[JyeDye]

It kills me that we don't have markings to note distance. So many cheap goals generated from 8-10m dinky kicks inside 50 that are massively costly.

I believe the grass patterns on the field are supposed to be 9m to help with this. Same length as the goal square. Doesn't seem to help at all though.

 

[JyeDye]

Carlton ended up 9th for a reason man.. it's not because of a bad umpiring decision.. a bad decision made by a player with 1 minute to go.. every facet of the club = 9th. Reputation.. board members.. dressing room.. coaching staff.. recruitment.. a coach that can absorb s**t from the media.. the bootstuder.. players being independent and confident.. equipment and ethics in the gym mate.. like when I'm in beast mode at the gym and that.. I don't like people talking to me and that mate.. fitness coach's.. nutritionists.. chef's.. was watching Paul Ince this morning pre game Liverpool v Manchester United.. he reckons one of the reasons he was super fit when he was playing for Inter or whatever was cause of the food mate.. I'm just throwing random s**t out here right.. keep going on about it.. but that's what it's all about.. that's why you ended up 9th.. not cause of a bad umpiring decision or a bad decision made by a player with 1 minute to go.. it's because of all this other s**t.. it's a togetherness in all facets of the club that brings success mate.

Let us have this one mate. I love your poetry but we need something to cry about right now.

 

[gouki88]

I believe the grass patterns on the field are supposed to be 9m to help with this. Same length as the goal square. Doesn't seem to help at all though.

Feel like 7.5m or 15m would make much more sense than 9m

I do remember BT rambling on about this for a few years, and going around with measuring tape