AFL hard ball almost turned World Cup bid into a $45m non-event

[Barkly St End]

Your only purpose here is to cause disharmony

Please understand-
AFL will always be the biggest game in Australia-and good luck to them and their supporters
There are many other parts of the forum you can contribute in a positive manner with your vast knowledge,so please move on and enjoy those

Checker
there are real, fair dinkum questions here - just because I don't agree with you, does not mean that these sorts of issues shouldn't be canvassed.

Some people believe this secret clause counts for naught - maybe they're right.

Some people believe that FIFA will just get the Governemnt to steamroll the AFL, introducing draconian legislation - maybe they're right.

Others believe that the FIFA exec committee will note the fact that the MCG is not even legally available, and may not be at all, meaning the whole bona fides of the bid is questionable. That may well have a negative effect on how the Autralian bid is received.

I don't see a problem with canvassing all these options.

 

[AJ_2000]

Ah, I can see it now - "Mr Blatter, Mr Blatter.... I just received this from the FIFA legal department, apparently the MCG isn't even legally available for Australia's world cup bid"

-----------

A few important items:

1. You do realise that the stadiums/cities in the bid documment can be changed after you win the bid. So you could change them all if you wanted and are under no obligation to use any.
2. FIFA have a track record of allowing "other sports" to be played during the WC despite all their saber rattling about being the only game in town. MLB in 94 and even the Springboks held international tests in world cup cities during the World Cup.

So its a good ploy for the AFL to have a call on the stadium, and its up to the FFA to deliver on their word. Personally I see this as a non issue.

 

[Barkly St End]

Ah, I can see it now - "Mr Blatter, Mr Blatter.... I just received this from the FIFA legal department, apparently the MCG isn't even legally available for Australia's world cup bid"

-----------


A few important items:

1. You do realise that the stadiums/cities in the bid documment can be changed after you win the bid. So you could change them all if you wanted and are under no obligation to use any.
2. FIFA have a track record of allowing "other sports" to be played during the WC despite all their saber rattling about being the only game in town. MLB in 94 and even the Springboks held international tests in world cup cities during the World Cup.

So its a good ploy for the AFL to have a call on the stadium, and its up to the FFA to deliver on their word. Personally I see this as a non issue.

All that might be true.

But the exec committee are looking through the bid documents - they will be impressed by the quality if the US stadiums - they will have a look at the Australian bid and notice that one of the 12 minimum stadiums has a capacity of 100,000, that's good - oh, but wait - it's not even available - why the hell is it even in the bid book??

What else can't we trust that's in this bid book? Are they trying to pull a swifty?

What else do they have? Well - not a hell of a lot more, in all honesty.

 

[Dimenhydrinate]

My take is when the World cup finally produced soem good soccer, it reinforced how third rate the a-league is.

Saying Third rate is a bit kind too isnt it ?

See, that proves you've never watched the A-League, so stop lying and shut up.

 

[Barkly St End]

See, that proves you've never watched the A-League, so stop lying and shut up.

I would agree with that sentiment.

The WC was not (and is not) a cut above the major European comps - which we all have access to.

A-League stands up very well up against the next tier of European comps.

Anyone who has watched Adelaide or Brisbane play this year would agree with that.

 

[mighty tiges]

If the Vuvuzelas chased everyone away then why was there over 40 billion watch the WC ---------9 times more than the Chinese Olympics.

And that was in Australia was it which was the question posed. C'mon are you trying to claim the flow on effect for the A-league post 2010 WC was anywhere near post-2006. Please!

The standard of the A-league this year has improved IMO so unlike Pessimistic I don't believe the standard is having a negative effect compared to previous seasons. In fact many of the round-robin games in the 2010 WC were ho-hum in standard themselves and the lack of a traditional Soccer atmosphere due to the non-stop monotone vuvuzeulas drowning it out didn't help. As I said it would've turned off the casual Aussie sports fan who jumps on the Soccer bandwagon every 4 years. The fall in Oz tv ratings for the 2010 WC compared to 2006 would support that. If the FFA were relying on the 2010 WC to give the A-league a boost in crowds they were mistaken. There was minimal flow on effect. The hype just wasn't there this time around. A lesson to the FFA that you need to get out and promote the domestic game rather than sit back and hope overseas comps. or whinging about the AFL will do it for you.

 

[Barkly St End]

The hype just wasn't there this time around. A lesson to the FFA that you need to get out and promote the domestic game rather than sit back and hope overseas comps. will do it for you.

I agree with that.

Soccer needs to drop the blame game, forget about conspiracy theories and lose the cargo-cult mentality.

Grow from the ground up and put a 100 year plan in place.

All going well, in around 40 to 60 years, Austalia will be in a position to win the rights to host the cup off its own merit, and will need zero assistance from anyone else to do it.

Only then, would Australia have earned the right.

 

[mighty tiges]

So its a good ploy for the AFL to have a call on the stadium, and its up to the FFA to deliver on their word. Personally I see this as a non issue.

Exactly. Hardly the AFL playing "hard ball". The MCG had been made available for the bid in 2008 when talks started b/w the AFL and FFA. Fairfax and News Ltd making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[mighty tiges]

I agree with that.

Soccer needs to drop the blame game, forget about conspiracy theories and lose the cargo-cult mentality.

Grow from the ground up and put a 100 year plan in place.

All going well, in around 40 to 60 years, Austalia will be in a position to win the rights to host the cup off its own merit, and will need zero assistance from anyone else to do it.

Only then, would Australia have earned the right.

We could host a WC tomorrow if need be and it'd be a success. Australia does major events better than most. It's just that the Fos' of this world will have to accept the AFL and NRL benefit more from the stadia upgrades and a WC in Oz won't change the sporting order long-term.

 

[AJ_2000]

Grow from the ground up and put a 100 year plan in place.

You can't be serious...... a 100 year plan, that's 20 times longer then Terry Wallace's 5 year plan, and 10 times longer the Ben Gale's 10 year secret plan for the Tigers to acheive world domination (after they get 75,000 member by 2014).

In administration terms 100 years would be about 15 generations! I can see it now in 2077 when they dust off the plan to see if they are meeting their goals "look here, it says ducks have to wear tailored pants"

Seeing that most businesses wouldn't plan for more then 5 to 10 years, and governments barely plan for yesterday, I would suggest a 100 year plan might be a touch long.

 

[scotto_01]

all these articles in the last week arnt worth the paper they were written on.

for starters lowy needs to stfu (in relation to the article earlier in the week)- the deals done, everyone is happy so move on and work on continuing to get the bid over the line.

everyone was satisfied when the following deal was done

wc games at mcg, possibly geelong (14 venues named, probly cut down to 12)

afl season continues at etihad, optus oval?, ect

in return for that afl wanted guarantees it could continue play which is all but guaranteed to happen + financial compensation

if they didnt have any problems with the mlb playing their season in 94 they'll have no problems in the afl playing there season in 22. imo the afl in australia is = to what the mlb is in america so there really shouldnt be an issue there.

 

[usalion]

if they didnt have any problems with the mlb playing their season in 94 they'll have no problems in the afl playing there season in 22. imo the afl in australia is = to what the mlb is in america so there really shouldnt be an issue there.

Off base on that one, I think- because honestly, you only have one major center for Aussie Rules with Melbourne (OK, SA and WA have comps which atrract fine crowds, but the other cities in your bid truly have a small AFL presence or none at all.

Baseball dominates the summer in the USA, and is played in every major city and small town- but it was not taking away from the use of stadia or the fan base in 1994- there were more than enough stadia to go around, and MLB could happily continue without a glitch- indeed, it is highly likely that a number of visitors might have been drawn to attend a game or two, since it is played every day during the summer (well, an off day or two a week).

Fans still turned out in droves- and in 2022, if Australia does get the Cup, you can expect near full houses at the stadia you are hosting the WC in- but the question is, where will the AFL play in that six week period when the matches are on in Melbourne (and the MCG is being prepared by fIFA)? Ethiad is a certainty, but where else can your Melbourne based teams play and keep their fan bases satisfied? Going to be tricky, and will take some creative work to figure that one out.

It aint like we lost Yankee Stadium in 1994...but you guys will lose the use of your iconic stadium for AFL for a good chunk of the season- how will the AFL actually operate then, and will the punters buy it? One hopes they will, but read the stuff posted on here....

 

[Stevie80]

FIFA will not allow major events during the world cup. The 2022 AFL season is not a major event. The 2022 AFL season will therefore go ahead without the use of the MCG for approx 8 weeks if the Australia world cup bid is successful.

And i love it how people are calling positive articles about the world cup bid 'fluff pieces', if i had a dollar for each 'fluff piece' written about the afl i'd be a millionaire!

 

[Stevie80]

I agree with that.

Soccer needs to drop the blame game, forget about conspiracy theories and lose the cargo-cult mentality.

Grow from the ground up and put a 100 year plan in place.

All going well, in around 40 to 60 years, Austalia will be in a position to win the rights to host the cup off its own merit, and will need zero assistance from anyone else to do it.

Only then, would Australia have earned the right.

There was no 100 year plan in place before australian cities bid to host the olympics. Same applies for the commonwealth games, rugby world cup, cricket world cup etc etc.

Why do you believe that soccer needs to wait for 100 years before they earn the right to bid for world cup, yet the other sports can do so as they like.

And each major event hosted in australia in the past received government support, so why does the FFA need to bid to host the world cup with 'zero assistance'.

 

[mighty tiges]

Off base on that one, I think- because honestly, you only have one major center for Aussie Rules with Melbourne (OK, SA and WA have comps which atrract fine crowds, but the other cities in your bid truly have a small AFL presence or none at all.

Baseball dominates the summer in the USA, and is played in every major city and small town- but it was not taking away from the use of stadia or the fan base in 1994- there were more than enough stadia to go around, and MLB could happily continue without a glitch- indeed, it is highly likely that a number of visitors might have been drawn to attend a game or two, since it is played every day during the summer (well, an off day or two a week).

Fans still turned out in droves- and in 2022, if Australia does get the Cup, you can expect near full houses at the stadia you are hosting the WC in- but the question is, where will the AFL play in that six week period when the matches are on in Melbourne (and the MCG is being prepared by fIFA)? Ethiad is a certainty, but where else can your Melbourne based teams play and keep their fan bases satisfied? Going to be tricky, and will take some creative work to figure that one out.

It aint like we lost Yankee Stadium in 1994...but you guys will lose the use of your iconic stadium for AFL for a good chunk of the season- how will the AFL actually operate then, and will the punters buy it? One hopes they will, but read the stuff posted on here....

Not too hard. 8 weeks where all the smaller crowd drawing games will be played. The AFL may even throw in a midseason break in there (IIRC the original plan was to have 2 weeks off). So 9 games a week for 6-8 weeks played at some combo of 3 x Etihad, AAMI, 'Gabba, SCG, Showgrounds, Launceston, Hobart, Cairns, Darwin, Canberra. Add to that after the round of 16 the smaller 45k stadia - Kardinia Park, Carrara - will be free to use as well.

In terms of compensation in the MOU the FFA/Feds will have to make up the financial shortfall to the AFL and its clubs and knowing the AFL they will be made to pay big time. The AFL if they were/are smart could actually make extra $$$ out of this. Play all the smaller crowd games which will average less than the normal average and thus less than some agreed average figure (eg: 40k crowd) below which they receive compo. Then play all the bigger drawing games before and after the WC which generate $$$. Not to mention the upgrades to stadia which most now will happen whether we win the bid or not - WA Stadium, Adelaide Oval, MCG, Kardinia Park, ANZ, Carrara, Sydney Showgrounds, Manuka. All this is why some Soccer zealots are peeed off and hope we don't win the bid.

 

[Zidane98]

And that was in Australia was it which was the question posed. C'mon are you trying to claim the flow on effect for the A-league post 2010 WC was anywhere near post-2006. Please!

The standard of the A-league this year has improved IMO so unlike Pessimistic I don't believe the standard is having a negative effect compared to previous seasons. In fact many of the round-robin games in the 2010 WC were ho-hum in standard themselves and the lack of a traditional Soccer atmosphere due to the non-stop monotone vuvuzeulas drowning it out didn't help. As I said it would've turned off the casual Aussie sports fan who jumps on the Soccer bandwagon every 4 years. The fall in Oz tv ratings for the 2010 WC compared to 2006 would support that. If the FFA were relying on the 2010 WC to give the A-league a boost in crowds they were mistaken. There was minimal flow on effect. The hype just wasn't there this time around. A lesson to the FFA that you need to get out and promote the domestic game rather than sit back and hope overseas comps. or whinging about the AFL will do it for you.

TV ratings as a whole for World Cup 2010 were up on 2006 mate. England vs Germany at midnight rated 500,000 plus - those sort of figures weren't seen for non aussie games at Germany 2006 in the Aussie TV ratings market.

The FFA weren't relying on the 2010 World Cup to boost crowds - the A League has a 30 year plan in place. Just as what happened in the Japanaese, Korean and US leagues you got a drop off in attendances after the first couple of seasons due to the novelty factor wearing off, then a slow, gradual growth over the next 20 years or so. Exactly as the FFA have planned.

 

[Pessimistic]

In an extreme case, AFl can run 3 games at etihad, 2 each at GABBA and SCG and 2 at any of tassie, canberra, cairns, darwin per week.

There'll probably be other opportunities too - sydney showgrounds etc

 

[Admiral Byng]

Back to the topic, it seems to me that the real culprit in all of this is the person who made the decision to build the ridiculous roof on the Melbourne rectangular stadium, in such a way that it permanently caps the seating capacity. If it wasn't for that, there should have been no major obstacles to an agreement on the use of venues in Melbourne. It is not the AFL's fault that such a short-sighted decision was made regarding that roof.

 

[Dimenhydrinate]

Back to the topic, it seems to me that the real culprit in all of this is the person who made the decision to build the ridiculous roof on the Melbourne rectangular stadium, in such a way that it permanently caps the seating capacity. If it wasn't for that, there should have been no major obstacles to an agreement on the use of venues in Melbourne. It is not the AFL's fault that such a short-sighted decision was made regarding that roof.

No, it'd be the govt's fault. And everybody knows that the govt works for the AFL.

 

[Puddy]

FIFA will not allow major events during the world cup. The 2022 AFL season is not a major event. The 2022 AFL season will therefore go ahead without the use of the MCG for approx 8 weeks if the Australia world cup bid is successful.

And i love it how people are calling positive articles about the world cup bid 'fluff pieces', if i had a dollar for each 'fluff piece' written about the afl i'd be a millionaire!

saying something stupid like that makes you look like a idiot mate

 

[usalion]

saying something stupid like that makes you look like a idiot mate

Um, no, actually, he is being accurate in his statement- FIFA does not want major competition while their tournament is being played- regular domestic comps in other codes can happily go on. It would be an event like Wimbledon or something on that order that would need to step aside. If England get the 2018 cup, we'll see for sure- because Wimbledon would be scheduled around the end of the group phases and the start of the knock out rounds.

AFL 2022 will go on if Australia wins the WC- just won't be atg the MCG from early May through the end of June, in all likelihood.

 

[mighty tiges]

TV ratings as a whole for World Cup 2010 were up on 2006 mate. England vs Germany at midnight rated 500,000 plus - those sort of figures weren't seen for non aussie games at Germany 2006 in the Aussie TV ratings market.

One game doesn't represent the whole tv ratings. The other 7 Round 16 games rated between 103k and 256k viewers. 5 group matches live on SBS1 didn't register on the Oztam ratings (<100k). Of the 8 delayed 3rd round group stage games only Germany vs Ghana registered on the ratings (162k). The ten Oz tv friendly 9.30pm starting games rated well (Ger vs Serbia top with 647k) but the games with similar starting times to Germany 2006 had ordinary ratings bar a handful (SA vs Mex opener, Ger vs Eng R16, Ger vs Arg QF, Ned vs Bra QF, Esp vs Ned final). The average tv ratings per game in 2006 according to the SBS website was 333k viewers for the group stage and round of 16 games btw. Not bad considering the earliest starting times were 11pm in 2006.

The figures for the Australian group games
...............2010.................................2006
Ger V Aus.....1,106,000.........Aus V Jpn.....2,166,000
Gha V Aus.....1,392,000........Bra V Aus.....1,549,000
Aus V Srb........728,000........Aus V Cro.....2,003,000

There was a drop off from 2006. The A-league was helped by the hype surrounding and flowing on the from 2006 WC. There was no flow on effect this time around.

The FFA weren't relying on the 2010 World Cup to boost crowds - the A League has a 30 year plan in place. Just as what happened in the Japanaese, Korean and US leagues you got a drop off in attendances after the first couple of seasons due to the novelty factor wearing off, then a slow, gradual growth over the next 20 years or so. Exactly as the FFA have planned.

No other country has 4 football codes. Australia is a unique sporting marketplace. Comparing to what happened in other countries is not so simple. I agree the A-league will be fine though once it gets rid of the dead weight (GCU, NQF, ......, Heart , Sydney FC 0-3 losers ) and reorganises things to live within its means.

 

[Zidane98]

One game doesn't represent the whole tv ratings. The other 7 Round 16 games rated between 103k and 256k viewers. 5 group matches live on SBS1 didn't register on the Oztam ratings (<100k). Of the 8 delayed 3rd round group stage games only Germany vs Ghana registered on the ratings (162k). The ten Oz tv friendly 9.30pm starting games rated well (Ger vs Serbia top with 647k) but the games with similar starting times to Germany 2006 had ordinary ratings bar a handful (SA vs Mex opener, Ger vs Eng R16, Ger vs Arg QF, Ned vs Bra QF, Esp vs Ned final). The average tv ratings per game in 2006 according to the SBS website was 333k viewers for the group stage and round of 16 games btw. Not bad considering the earliest starting times were 11pm in 2006.

The figures for the Australian group games
...............2010.................................2006
Ger V Aus.....1,106,000.........Aus V Jpn.....2,166,000
Gha V Aus.....1,392,000........Bra V Aus.....1,549,000
Aus V Srb........728,000........Aus V Cro.....2,003,000

There was a drop off from 2006. The A-league was helped by the hype surrounding and flowing on the from 2006 WC. There was no flow on effect this time around.


No other country has 4 football codes. Australia is a unique sporting marketplace. Comparing to what happened in other countries is not so simple. I agree the A-league will be fine though once it gets rid of the dead weight (GCU, NQF, ......, Heart , Sydney FC 0-3 losers ) and reorganises things to live within its means.

From what I can gather, all of the non Aussie World Cup fixtures rated markedly better then 2006. For example, Netherlands vs Japan rated 500,000 plus - more then some AFL fixtures around at the same time. Those sort of fixtures wouldn't have even registered on the ratings for World Cup 06.

As for the A League, we would have had huge crowds in 06/07 and 07/08 even if we didn't qualify for Germany 06. There was huge hype even before we qualified. Simply put, the A League was a new and exiting competition. Adding to this most Victorian clubs struggled for the first half of the decade and many footy fans had become bored/disenchanted with the game and decided to try something new (hence the huge crowds in Melbourne). Like any new sporting competition, novelty factor wears off after first 4-5 seasons and consequently crowds drop off. It won't be any different in Australia compared to the K League, J League and MLS - all of those leagues compete in highly competitive environments. I would personally keep NQF & GCU - GCU obviously without fat clive - I see NQF having good long term potential. They will take about 10 years to establish themselves and GCU could do it much faster with community based ownership and not having a ******** running the place.

 

[McCrann]

FIFA will not allow major events during the world cup. The 2022 AFL season is not a major event. The 2022 AFL season will therefore go ahead without the use of the MCG for approx 8 weeks if the Australia world cup bid is successful.

And i love it how people are calling positive articles about the world cup bid 'fluff pieces', if i had a dollar for each 'fluff piece' written about the afl i'd be a millionaire!

Mate, FIFA do not have that power. FIFA will not dictate to anyone what is and isn't a major event and what can go forward. Is the Melbourne International Film Festival a major event? The Comedy Festival? Womadelaide? Melbourne Show?

Its not up to FIFA to dictate any of that - its up to the events themselves to best utilise the occasion for their own benefit. FIFA has no power in that regard.

 

[McCrann]

No, it'd be the govt's fault. And everybody knows that the govt works for the AFL.

Except for the fact that multiple Governments, both Labor and Liberal, conspired with the MCC to screw the AFL over for 30 years and get rid of the AFL's own stadium at Waverley.

That's a far longer period than any "togetherness" between the Government and the AFL.