Review AFL Round 7 autopsy - Adelaide defeats Geelong by 50 points

[Cattery]

Really need to take your rose-coloured glasses off. Recent thread showed the most typical best 22 of the current list only differs in personel by 3 (one of which is Menzel's inclusion, asuming the whole list is fit).

We only really have Wojo, Trav and Menzel to come in atm, so our issues ade NOT just personel. We should not have lost by 50.

I know the mantra on this board is blind faith, but really, we're not in the 2012 race. I know that's enough to have me ostracised 'round here, but it's the simple truth.

We shouldn't be ashamed a team that went 3 flags in 5 years is coming to an end, but peoples' unreserved devotion is going to make it sound like anything but a premiership this year is a failure. It's not.

So Scarlett and Bartel don't get a gig in our best twenty two then, or Stokes?

Agree with your reasoning though about not being in the race this year but would add the caveat "not yet" as I believe the talent is still there, whether all the other ingredients are remains to be seen though.

 

[r32godzilla]

Well I've calmed down a bit now since yelling like madman at the TV while watching the Cats get mugged by the Crows. very disappointing to get flogged like that mainly in the second quarter. At least the guys fought out 3 quarters, but to get blown away like that in one quarter is just terrible.

Still its not time to write the boys off like all the critics will be once again. We hit a team at home in top form, bigger bodies overall and almost a full squad. We are playing alot of kids at the moment and still haven't had our best team out on the field as yet. Bartel, Scarlett, Wojo, Menzel and Varcoe all to come back. Add to that our kids getting more games under their belts and as long as we make the 8 or better still the top 4, come the pointy end of the season, I still think we are in the hunt. Chins up lads we are used to being written off, its not over until the fat lady sings and she hasn't even waddled her barge ass on stage yet!

 

[dazbroncos]

So now the blood pressure is down a bit , a few points....

If we are too bring on Orren to chop out Westy, (which he could certainly use) do we think we can really afford to lose an extra mid given that we are struggling in that area with clearances and CP? I'm all for keeping Hawk out of the ruck but at what cost...?

Also, last year when we were blooding youngsters we were bringing in 3 per game or so....

This year, that number has been 8 to 10...

You can't lose that kind of experience, body size and skill and replace it with Motlop squibbing, Smedts one hand spins without the ball in defensive 50, Guthrie handballing laterally across the goal line etc and expect to win. Im certainly not knocking them learning and you have to make mistakes but with the mistakes comes the downsides and losses like this are that downside.

Its as much the loss of the body size and confidence to take the hit as anything which will come with time and a few more preseasons.

Now if we can get Wojo, Trav, Jimmy, Scarlo back that balance swings back our way a bit.
The future for us is very bright - and it aint exactly over now, but it's gonna be a lot harder than last year.

Go Catters...

 

[Go Hoops]

We got monstered by a team with better cattle on the day and with more will to win. It is a credit to the Sando and his group. They deserve all the credit.

 

[thegerman]

^^^^ No way cats can make top 4. Just not going to happen. Would love for it to happen, but let's be realistic. Whilst we where beaten badly by pies a few years ago, to go on to have a successful year, just can't see that happening. Our quality of play is just not there. I agree that the kids need a run, but as per this week they can be overwhelmed.

I have supported Byrnes in the past, but after watching him in the magoos and yesterday, he doesn't cut the mustard. Not up to afl standard.

 

[Go Hoops]

your the 1st bloke vinum who is quick to have a go at those who do nothing more than barrack but once I give my views on something you do this

Why even go there after some of the stuff we talked about privately?

I have been good and not quoted you or had goes at you but you continue to have pot shots at me and quite frankly, it's bloody appalling on your behalf.

I said there are few supporters in here who are quick to put Geelong down and jump off us when we lose but when we start winning they are right back at the top clapping us on.
Nothing untoward about that imo, you obviously disagree and that's fine...leave it that instead of taking things so personally all over again.

For someone your age, you sometimes act like your in your 20's again.

I thought he was a kid still studying because he spends most of the daylight hours here and by the stuff he posts. I am gobsmacked he is a retiree.

You are a good poster. Don't be intimidated. He is the forum blowhard and hypocrite as you have unfairly found out.

 

[PatrickBateman]

We've lost the genuine hunger to win... the kind of hunger that got us over the line in so many games we had little right to win over the years. Simple as that.

The game is more about intensity and work rate than it ever has been before, which is showing us up. We're being beaten to the ball and on the spread every week by sides who are harder and more intense in general. Only the cream from our senior players has won us games at all in 2012... we're WAY OFF the mark.

No comments yet regarding Varcoe's speed being the difference, which will prop us up and make us competitive?? How many pages back do I need to go??

 

[Turbocat]

Really need to take your rose-coloured glasses off. Recent thread showed the most typical best 22 of the current list only differs in personel by 3 (one of which is Menzel's inclusion, asuming the whole list is fit).

We only really have Wojo, Trav and Menzel to come in atm, so our issues ade NOT just personel. We should not have lost by 50.

I know the mantra on this board is blind faith, but really, we're not in the 2012 race. I know that's enough to have me ostracised 'round here, but it's the simple truth.

We shouldn't be ashamed a team that went 3 flags in 5 years is coming to an end, but peoples' unreserved devotion is going to make it sound like anything but a premiership this year is a failure. It's not.

Greg , we have lost Ling, Ottens , Milburn permanently but they are still losses that have decreased the quality of our list. Thats just the cycle of time and is unavoidable

Then injuries & suspensions to Varcoe, Scarlett, Stokes, Wojo, Menzel , Vardy , Simpson etc have all hurt the our ability to cover these losses, forcing us to play and rely on too many junior players and to few experienced players that are in form.I think considering this , most teams would have struggled to win 4 out of 7.

Us at our very best might , just might , have been able to cover the loss of 3 from our list and least 6 players who would be playing if fit. And the players we have , how many are still are at their best , their very sharpest?

Its no wonder we miss Bartel when he is out. Now you may say I have rose coloured glasses , although most people would call me a "glass half empty type". But we do have to be realistic. Success and quality comes at a price , it means when playing well one doesn't introduce newness to the side . Eventually when you are forced too it hurts.There is pain.

The players we have waiting for their chance all look promising but one doesn't easily replace AA players. We are still a very good chance this year if we can recover from the injuries and rebalance the side. Our forwardline & backline is strong enough but our mids are under pressure and that is core of any great side. Time will tell.

 

[Belisarius]

So now the blood pressure is down a bit , a few points....

If we are too bring on Orren to chop out Westy, (which he could certainly use) do we think we can really afford to lose an extra mid given that we are struggling in that area with clearances and CP? I'm all for keeping Hawk out of the ruck but at what cost...?

Also, last year when we were blooding youngsters we were bringing in 3 per game or so....

This year, that number has been 8 to 10...

You can't lose that kind of experience, body size and skill and replace it with Motlop squibbing, Smedts one hand spins without the ball in defensive 50, Guthrie handballing laterally across the goal line etc and expect to win. Im certainly not knocking them learning and you have to make mistakes but with the mistakes comes the downsides and losses like this are that downside.

Its as much the loss of the body size and confidence to take the hit as anything which will come with time and a few more preseasons.

Now if we can get Wojo, Trav, Jimmy, Scarlo back that balance swings back our way a bit.
The future for us is very bright - and it aint exactly over now, but it's gonna be a lot harder than last year.

Go Catters...

Agree with this post.

I have been writing for a while now that you cannot have this many under 50 games players in one side and expect to keep beating good sides.

I have been saying that this year will be much closer as other teams catch up to us. And we are changing the team thru the loss of good players - how can we keep winning like in the past 5 years ?

I see us in the finals - and we will know more how that campaign might turn out when we get Travis, Scarlett, Bartel and Wojo back in the side - and some more game time for Bundy, Duncan and THunt.

There are some important ins there and some players who could further develop over the season - so we still have hope as we have the experience and knowledge we can play finals well.

However the fact that unless Menzel can make it back - and THunt makes it fit and playing well at the end of the season - we are likely to have only 3 new faces in the finals campaign this year - Motlop, Menzel and THunt.

All good players but all under 50 senior games - to go with Bundy and Duncan. The team finds itself a little unbalanced presently. The concern we have some ageing excellent players in Scarlett, Corey and Chappy - that may go at the end of the season is, along with other injuries, forcing Geelong to blood too many young players at one time - with not unexpected results.

It is hard to see who will come in from those outside the senior team and make a significant impact. We need at least one I reckon to spark up the team. Just cannot see someone however coming in making so much difference when they are so AFL inexperienced.

Will be interesting to see what injuries we have and who comes back, how the MC respond to such a drubbing in selection and how the team responds to a big game on Friday night against a pretty good side. Maybe will tell us a fair bit about the season to become.

Also the next two seasons will pretty much tell us if the young players we have are as good as think thye are.

We can lose a few players but let's keep Scarlett going for at least another two seasons. He will be good enough and he seriously makes a difference to our backline. For any chance for more glory in the next two seasons - we need him I think. And by then the new replacements would have had a decent apprenticeship.

 

[Gogeelong]

Agree with this post.

I have been writing for a while now that you cannot have this many under 50 games players in one side and expect to keep beating good sides.

I have been saying that this year will be much closer as other teams catch up to us. And we are changing the team thru the loss of good players - how can we keep winning like in the past 5 years ?

Belarius it is not the Geelong way to make excuses.

Sure we had 8 players with under 50 games but so did Essendon this week. They also had 4 players with between 50-60 games.

They played with enthusiasm and vigor and beat West Coast (a top 4 side?) in convincing fashion. This is exactly what we miss.

They also had an array of great young talent on display.

The reason we are down could be-
We have lost too many A graders (must hurt)
The team as a group have lost their hunger (looks like the answer)
The delayed start to the season (should have caught up be now)
The young kids are not good enough (Jury is out)

The team has to turn around its fortune and fight like there is no tomorrow before it is too late if they are to stay in the race this year

 

[you pick one]

I thought he was a kid still studying because he spends most of the daylight hours here and by the stuff he posts. I am gobsmacked he is a retiree.

You are a good poster. Don't be intimidated. He is the forum blowhard and hypocrite as you have unfairly found out.

This sort of stuffs unwarranted,disappointing and adds nothing to the debate.

 

[Belisarius]

Belarius it is not the Geelong way to make excuses.

Sure we had 8 players with under 50 games but so did Essendon this week. They also had 4 players with between 50-60 games.

They played with enthusiasm and vigor and beat West Coast (a top 4 side?) in convincing fashion. This is exactly what we miss.

They also had an array of great young talent on display.

The reason we are down could be-
We have lost too many A graders (must hurt)
The team as a group have lost their hunger (looks like the answer)
The delayed start to the season (should have caught up be now)
The young kids are not good enough (Jury is out)

The team has to turn around its fortune and fight like there is no tomorrow before it is too late if they are to stay in the race this year

Yep - all seems quite possible to me as part of the reason for the results thus far.

Still reckon that some other sides have recruited quite well and are maturing as a team - and therefore closing the gap between the top teams.

 

[winty]

The thing that frustrated me the most about the game yesterday is that most of the basic skill errors were committed by the senior players, ie. Byrnes' miss from 15m out, Mackie shinning one through from 35m out and Kelly kicking it to someone sitting on our bench.

It seems to me the kids are giving it their all week in, week out, yet the senior players don't seem to have come to the party just yet.

 

[hbk_aus]

nice of you to look after you mate ypo

keep up the great work and go Cats!

I agree with him actually. Stick to discussing the team maturely and leave the high school squabbles out.

 

[Just do something]

I tend to read a lot on this forum and post occasionally. There are a lot of good points that people have raised.

The main thing i see is team balance. We definately need to play the kids to see if they are up to it and also to starting building them into senior afl players and i dont see this is a being a problem. Its just that we may have played more kids this year in games then maybe we liked due to injury and suspensions etc.

Lets get a good look at others as well. What about Simpkin and Sheringham now they may be just top ups for the 2s but they are that little bit older and may add something for 3-4 games. Chris Scott did say he wants to add a few more in the coming weeks so maybe we will see a rotation out for few kids with a few new ones to come in.

Just my thoughts anyway!!

 

[Turbocat]

The thing that frustrated me the most about the game yesterday is that most of the basic skill errors were committed by the senior players, ie. Byrnes' miss from 15m out, Mackie shinning one through from 35m out and Kelly kicking it to someone sitting on our bench.

It seems to me the kids are giving it their all week in, week out, yet the senior players don't seem to have come to the party just yet.

Winty , I think this is true but its a usual sign of a champion side near the end.

A mature champion side is capable of being most resilient. It will come back from places that would rattle less experienced yet it also can turn up and look rather apathetic , overly confident , that the result will happen..as it has so many times before.

Haven't we seen it before in Mackie , Enright etc looking casual almost "arrogant" but really just super confident and when it doesn't happen and it can cause a rather poor impression. What in the world was Mackie doing when he got run down. Of corse mis judements have been made in the past and they have turned it round. Will they this time? Well it does get harder as you get older.

Your brain is writing cheques that you can no longer cash. The team or the players in the team are not the same as what they were when that confidence was created. Yet the brain still thinks it is. Its like the Boxer that thinks they have another fight in them.

Its common to players get angry at this, frustration , arguing , disputing umpires decisions , infighting are all signs I have seen in elite teams near the end. Have we seen that this year? Add to this this the gradual loss of ability that so many games , so many campaigns will exasperate and we have a giant wobbling at a tipping point.

The kids brought in are playing as hard as they can , they haven't got the engrained mindset. If the giants can rally again tie will only tell. If we get back most of the experience in time to make a difference , in the form to contribute then im sure their mind will become keener the closer we get to missing the finals.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Re: I don't mean to be rude but I've been there before.

Christ- the team plays like shite and you focus on Byrnes who rotated for a quarter! Ostrich or what!!!!! We were down 10 goals when he came on! Brain switch - try turning it on mate!!!!

Thank you. Adelaide piles on something like eleven goals to two in a period of the first and second quarters (the difference in the game) and apparently all the fault lies with Byrnes, the one player yesterday who had an airtight alibi during that time. I do agree, however, that playing him in the AFL (invariably as the sub) doesn't do anyone any favours. Not Byrnes, not the side for 2012, not the side long-term, not for the kid whose place he is taking. Put him back to the VFL, until he is back dominating at that level. When the time is right, I'll welcome him back with open arms. Don't throw him on the scrap heap...he's been considered a list-clogger before (a couple of times) and bounced back to be a valuable member of two premiership teams.

Next thing...if he is fit, get Simon Hogan in the team. We continually get smashed at the stoppages, we have a guy who has played plenty of good footy at AFL-level, who for some reason, appears to have been stamped with the 'never to play again' tag, but who also has 'Shane Tuck in the last two months of 2011' written all over him...for God's sake: Play him! If he wasn't going to get an opportunity, why did he get so much time in the NAB Cup (where he played well, by-and-large)?

Let's see...next item, ok, well this is sort of back to the first point, but it's our inability to halt a run-on that is killing us. Fremantle and Adelaide both had ridiculous strings of goals in the first half, which basically meant we were pushing it uphill for the rest of the game and North had a few runs of three straight goals against us, which we kept allowing to happen. It's park footy stuff: Usually, two straight goals conceded and definitely three straight and you go man-on-man.

 

[OldStyle2007]

The thing that frustrated me the most about the game yesterday is that most of the basic skill errors were committed by the senior players, ie. Byrnes' miss from 15m out, Mackie shinning one through from 35m out and Kelly kicking it to someone sitting on our bench.

It seems to me the kids are giving it their all week in, week out, yet the senior players don't seem to have come to the party just yet.

Mackie has always beenslack with his disposal. It was his no pressure handball to Taylor's feet in the 2008 GF that lead to a morale sapping goal

And SJ has always let the ball bounce when he could just as easily have marked it - turning a certain possession and shot at goal into a 50/50 chance

But now these 2 players have been pushed into our top 5 because of departures... Well, their deficiencies are much more evident when no one else is around to clean up after them

 

[hbk_aus]

I agree with you actually. Stick to discussing the team maturely and leave the high school squabbles out.

Are u actually trying to wind people up or is this just how you are?

 

[catswhiskers]

If you had watched Hawthorn against Sydney Rnd 5 you would reckon the Hawks were cooked. They were worse in the second half than we were in the second quarter yesterday (if thats possible). And on their patch.
But they are resilient and bounced back against StKilda.

We have to get used to the fact this is a very unusual year where top teams won't dominate as we have seen since 2007.If you factor in Richmond and North and the residual ability of the Saints and Bullies then there are 8 or 9 sides that can beat any side if they are on and the favourite is off. All sides will have bad losses and maybe even a number of losses in a patch. Its just a matter of when.

On the team:
A lot of the structural issues will fall away if we have Simpson injury free and playing to his ability. I know I say this a lot but when I look back to last year the things that turned our side from stumblers to premiers was the inclusion of West as second ruck and the rapid improvement of Duncan, Menzell and Bundy.
West brought the ability to move quickly around the ground and take a pack mark and Hawkins immediately found form as a permanent forward. The side just looked right and it proved so.

This year we need similar advances. Simpson is one we need and I see Motlop, THunt and Smedts as the rest. Can they improve as quickly as West, Duncan Bundy and Menz.? Why not? - Motlop and THunt are well on the way and there is something about Smedts.

This is interesting footy. But it will be harder to get high into the 8 this year because other teams are maturing. Plenty of human drama to play out here.

 

[yebbo]

Get your shit together people. Adelaide are a good team this year and have historically given us problems over at AAMI stadium where they usually look slick and get plenty of run so it didn't surprise me at all.

Sure Geelong aren't playing as well as they have in the past 120 games (except for funnily enough the odd thrashing) buts its a bit early to be saying Geelong are finished on the back of this one loss.

Give them a break they have always come through for us and even though 3 and 4 isn't the best start I thought they played ok it just didnt work for them on the day. That happens but give them a break on expecting the older guys to go 150 percent hard at the ball 100 percent of the time and to be at their usual AA standard all the time.

It just didnt go our way. As I remember Taylor Walker in the space of 1 minute shinned a goal and had another one touched 5 metres in play....Mackie shinned a point. Shit happens.

So what you cant win them all and I'm just enjoying watching all this young talent come through that will learn from these type of games AND FROM THE OLDER PLAYERS and overall I am just relieved because I can bask in the glory of 3 that are in the bank....and who knows maybe we will get going and snag another in 2012 from a world record 8th position.

Have faith and enjoy the mighty Catters.

 

[Greg Brady]

So Scarlett and Bartel don't get a gig in our best twenty two then, or Stokes?

Agree with your reasoning though about not being in the race this year but would add the caveat "not yet" as I believe the talent is still there, whether all the other ingredients are remains to be seen though.

Yeah sorry, out of the country and had only seen the score, didn't know about the late changes. Eases my mind a bit, to be honest.

Still think we're a longshot to take out the flag, but here's hoping. Something I probably should have added in my post was that even though I think 2012's flag is beyond us, really do like the signs our kids are showing. We shouldn't fall too far down the ladder before we're ready to challenge again which is encouraging.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Yeah sorry, out of the country and had only seen the score, didn't know about the late changes. Eases my mind a bit, to be honest.

With all due respect, it'd probably be expected that someone had seen more of the game than just the scores before declaring the season a write-off.

 

[topic97]

We have to get used to the fact this is a very unusual year where top teams won't dominate as we have seen since 2007.If you factor in Richmond and North and the residual ability of the Saints and Bullies then there are 8 or 9 sides that can beat any side if they are on and the favourite is off. All sides will have bad losses and maybe even a number of losses in a patch. Its just a matter of when.

Yeah this is the thing. I think both we have dropped back and the pack has caught up this year.
Its certainly going to make for a great year of footy!! Pain in the arse for tipping though

I am just enjoying sitting back watching Bombers and Carlton supporters get ahead of themselves as they so often do at this point in the season.

What a lot of people forget is majority of these teams that have a heap of younger players, Adelaide, Richmond, Carlton, WestCoast, Essendon etc usually drop off later in the year compared to the other teams that have players that have had a significant amount of senior experience.

Not taking anything away from their great starts to the season, I just think that teams with experience and conditioning will be there at the pointy end - Geelong, Pies, Hawks and even possibly the Saints if they get their shit together....

God, its only round 7!!

 

[Beth]

While we are scratching our heads pondering what went wrong there seems to be a lack of kudos given to Adelaiade, they are rather good this year! Am I the only person here who didnt think twice about tipping them? (yes I do tip against us from time to time, Im horribly competitive )